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  1. #81
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    I agree with the sentiments in this thread which state that we've added Hunter, have retained Sanchez and will regain Victor Martinez. All without giving up any players or draft choices. We now have options about keeping or retaining Porcello. I also agree with those who have suggested retaining him unless and until we receive a great package in return. I'm not inclined to seek a deal for him now. I'd rather enter the season with him as our #5 starter, Smyly in the pen. Let's see how weak our "weaknesses" like SS, platoon player in LF and a closer really are before we deal to fill them. Some of those slots might take care of themselves, or we could suffer an injury mid season and need a chip like Porcello to deal then.

  2. #82
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    I think we can use garcia/dirks trandum in lf and would package porc and peralta for elvis in texas as they have 2 up and coming prospects or to cinny for Billy Hamilton 22 yr old prospect good eye, avg, stealer; Starlin Castro cubs; etc...I would only send porc out if we get a toolsy ss with a good glove...now we need DD to find one ready for the big leagues

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longgone View Post
    If he stays healthy it will be fine. A couple of million more or less per year won't make or break anything. The risk with any pitcher is that they'll break down, and then you're paying for nothing.
    That's really the risk with any deal and there's no way to mitigate it with the exception of signing no one.
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  4. #84
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    Right now the Tigers are really quite an amazing collection. Consider that once they got Dirks, Fister and Jackson back in early June, they won at at 96 win season pace over their last 104 games. Now to that 96 win pace team you add Sanchez for a whole season, Victor, Infante for a whole season, and Hunter. Your losses (Valverde, Young, Raburn, Boesch) are virtually all addition by subtraction players. And your none of our core players except Hunter and Dotel are old enough to be on the downhill side of their likely yr to yr performance curves.

    Ilitch and DD have put a team together with an opportunity to be very special. There are a 1000 things that can torpedo a season, but there is incredible potential here and that is all you can ask of ownership.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Right now the Tigers are an amazing collection. Consider that once they got Dirks, Fister and Jackson back in early June, they won at at 96 win season pace over their last 104 games. Now to that 96 win pace team you add Sanchez for a whole season, Victor, Infante for a whole season, and Hunter. Your losses (Valverde, Young, Raburn, Boesch) are virtually all addition by subtraction players.

    Ilitch and DD have put a team together with an opportunity to be very special. There are a 1000 things that can torpedo a season, but there is incredible potential here and that is all you can ask of ownership.
    Added to this is that there's plenty of time and options to address the relatively small holes that exist.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Right now the Tigers are really quite an amazing collection. Consider that once they got Dirks, Fister and Jackson back in early June, they won at at 96 win season pace over their last 104 games. Now to that 96 win pace team you add Sanchez for a whole season, Victor, Infante for a whole season, and Hunter. Your losses (Valverde, Young, Raburn, Boesch) are virtually all addition by subtraction players. And your none of our core players except Hunter and Dotel are old enough to be on the downhill side of their likely yr to yr performance curves.

    Ilitch and DD have put a team together with an opportunity to be very special. There are a 1000 things that can torpedo a season, but there is incredible potential here and that is all you can ask of ownership.
    I've been trying to keep my expectations down, but they really were two different teams last year. The opening roster should look a lot different than the opening roster in 2012. If all goes right, it wouldn't be that shocking to see 100 wins. The potential is certainly there.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    The problem I have with this move is that it sets a precedent for Max and Fister to point to and both say they're better than Anibal. Can't pay 3 pitchers 15+MM plus paying JV 25+.
    True, but you also can't sign Scherzer and trade Sanchez, but you can do the reverse. You get no value out of Sanchez if he walks. You maybe get Jackson or someone in his place, but none of the other guys are really as good as him. Lohse arguably is, but he may just get similar money. Jackson always falls apart at the end of the season, Mccarthy sucks IMO(only successful in Oakland, low Ks,took a ball to the head similar to the one that ruined Matt Clement, other health issues) and Dempster is 36 and struggled transitioning to the AL. Sanchez did for a very short time, but figured it out quickly and pitched very strong down the stretch of a penant chase.

  8. #88
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    The Angels have too many outfielders now - Hamilton, Trout, Wells, Bourjos, Trumbo. They're stuck with Wells because of the contract. They'll try to convince someone to give them some talent for Bourjos, but he hits like a slightly-improved Berry. If you needed more convincing that you should not acquire Bourjos, Dave Cameron thinks that he would be a worthwhile pickup. The Angels really need starting pitching - Porcello and some junk for Trumbo? I know, he's an ox out there in the outfield, but he'd put some juice into the 6 spot for sure.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I've been trying to keep my expectations down, but they really were two different teams last year. The opening roster should look a lot different than the opening roster in 2012. If all goes right, it wouldn't be that shocking to see 100 wins. The potential is certainly there.
    Brennan Boesch
    Delmon Young
    Ryan Raburn
    Don Kelly
    Gerald Laird
    Danny Worth
    Clete Thomas
    Jose Valverde
    Dan Schlereth
    Collin Balester

    All on the 2012 Opening Day Roster.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Liston View Post
    The Angels have too many outfielders now - Hamilton, Trout, Wells, Bourjos, Trumbo. They're stuck with Wells because of the contract. They'll try to convince someone to give them some talent for Bourjos, but he hits like a slightly-improved Berry. If you needed more convincing that you should not acquire Bourjos, Dave Cameron thinks that he would be a worthwhile pickup. The Angels really need starting pitching - Porcello and some junk for Trumbo? I know, he's an ox out there in the outfield, but he'd put some juice into the 6 spot for sure.
    The Angels have said that Trumbo isn't on the market. And even if he was, it would take waaaay more than Porcello and some junk. FWIW, Rotoworld is throwing Joel Hanrahan's name out there as a potential player to be traded for Porcello.
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambino Lino View Post
    The Angels have said that Trumbo isn't on the market. And even if he was, it would take waaaay more than Porcello and some junk. FWIW, Rotoworld is throwing Joel Hanrahan's name out there as a potential player to be traded for Porcello.
    I would be devastated if we trade Porcello for Hanrahan. I do not want to trade Porcello for a reliever and Hanrahan's walks went way up last year. At that point, we might as well move Porcello to the bullpen and continue to work with him with the intention of moving back to starter in the future.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmwatkin View Post
    Brennan Boesch
    Delmon Young
    Ryan Raburn
    Don Kelly
    Gerald Laird
    Danny Worth
    Clete Thomas
    Jose Valverde
    Dan Schlereth
    Collin Balester

    All on the 2012 Opening Day Roster.
    To be fair....

    Larid > Pena
    Worth could be on the roster this ear, and could be better than Santiago either way.
    Boesch could still be on the roster this year, if not, Berry will be and they are a wash.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    To be fair....

    Larid > Pena
    Worth could be on the roster this ear, and could be better than Santiago either way.
    Boesch could still be on the roster this year, if not, Berry will be and they are a wash.
    I don't think it is a given the Berry or Boesch will be on the opening day roster.

  14. #94
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    I don't think it is a given the Berry or Boesch will be on the opening day roster.
    I was posting that more as an "as of now."

    Assuming we followed our past bench structure...
    Pena
    Santiago/Worth
    Boesh/Berry
    Kabernaus??? (Kelly role). If he doesn't make it, I would guess we keep both Boesch and Berry.

    that would give us 13 bats, 12 pitchers.


    If we deal Porcello and pick up a bat for LF and let Dirks platoon (Since there is a roughly 0% chance all three outfielders + Victor can go the entire year without a DL stint) I think our bench is in a lot better shape. That would seal Brennan Boesch being traded (IMO).

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    I think it is quite possible playing for Detroit last year helped land Sanchez.
    I don't think there is any doubt about that.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hart View Post
    I would be devastated if we trade Porcello for Hanrahan. I do not want to trade Porcello for a reliever and Hanrahan's walks went way up last year. At that point, we might as well move Porcello to the bullpen and continue to work with him with the intention of moving back to starter in the future.
    I agree with this, I like RP but am now pretty much resigned to the fact he's going to get traded. I'd rather see him go for a young middle IF prospect than Hanrahan.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Liston View Post
    The Angels have too many outfielders now - Hamilton, Trout, Wells, Bourjos, Trumbo. They're stuck with Wells because of the contract. They'll try to convince someone to give them some talent for Bourjos, but he hits like a slightly-improved Berry. If you needed more convincing that you should not acquire Bourjos, Dave Cameron thinks that he would be a worthwhile pickup. The Angels really need starting pitching - Porcello and some junk for Trumbo? I know, he's an ox out there in the outfield, but he'd put some juice into the 6 spot for sure.
    Any trade between the Angels and Tigers would be difficult at this point as they have to be considered the front runners for the AL, it would be like trading within your division.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcelain God View Post
    Any trade between the Angels and Tigers would be difficult at this point as they have to be considered the front runners for the AL, it would be like trading within your division.
    Yeah...I would have a hard time trading Porcello to the Angels unless it some sort of fleecing.

  20. #100
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    I'm guessing Porcello ends up on the Cubs or Padres. Not sure what we could get for either. Do we go prospects or short term help?

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wockenfussy View Post
    I agree with the sentiments in this thread which state that we've added Hunter, have retained Sanchez and will regain Victor Martinez. All without giving up any players or draft choices. We now have options about keeping or retaining Porcello. I also agree with those who have suggested retaining him unless and until we receive a great package in return. I'm not inclined to seek a deal for him now. I'd rather enter the season with him as our #5 starter, Smyly in the pen. Let's see how weak our "weaknesses" like SS, platoon player in LF and a closer really are before we deal to fill them. Some of those slots might take care of themselves, or we could suffer an injury mid season and need a chip like Porcello to deal then.
    Agreed!
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  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hart View Post
    Yeah...I would have a hard time trading Porcello to the Angels unless it some sort of fleecing.
    I would love for the Tigers lineup to get the opportunity to bat against Porcello.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'm guessing Porcello ends up on the Cubs or Padres. Not sure what we could get for either. Do we go prospects or short term help?
    If the tigers are in all out 'win now' mode, they probably wouldn't be trading anyone on the 40 who could help them win a game at any point in the season for prospects.
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  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    If the tigers are in all out 'win now' mode, they probably wouldn't be trading anyone on the 40 who could help them win a game at any point in the season for prospects.


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  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I've been trying to keep my expectations down, but they really were two different teams last year. The opening roster should look a lot different than the opening roster in 2012. If all goes right, it wouldn't be that shocking to see 100 wins. The potential is certainly there.
    I'm generally conservative about projecting wins and last year I think expectations were too high. This year, they should have a much better team entering the season. They could win 100 games without a lot of unusual surprises.
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  26. #106
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    Lee is one of the most temperate and knowledgeable people on this board. I trust this opinion.
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  27. #107
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    I see 92 wins right now. Weak pen. But that could be upgraded.
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  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoBert View Post
    Lee is one of the most temperate and knowledgeable people on this board. I trust this opinion.
    I second that!
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  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I'm generally conservative about projecting wins and last year I think expectations were too high. This year, they should have a much better team entering the season. They could win 100 games without a lot of unusual surprises.
    Agreed. The 2011 version was (by PYT) and 90 win team. Avila, Peralta and Valverde played a little over their heads, Ajax played a little below his level. Other than JV, the pitching was generally expected to be better (Full season of Fister, Scherzer was due for a little rebound).

    We lost Victor and replaced him with Fielder, who is a better hitter but the shifting Cabby to 3rd did hurt his total value a bit.

    In essence, we were again looking at a 90 win team. Most of the players "corrected" themselves in a predictable manner; Ajax was much better than expected.. .Valverde much worse. A few of our fringe guys played themselves out of a job, bur Dirks was better than anybody could have expected. Once we added Sanchez and Infante we were a better team and that is how things played out.

    This year is completely different. Where as our big move last year was negated by losing V-mart, this off-season we have added 4 pieces. V-mart comes back and replaces the offensive black hole known as Delmon Young. Torii Hunter replaces the black hole that was the boesch/berry duo. Then we add (for a full season) Sanchez and Infante.

    We do all of that without losing anything of value. Ajax probably regresses a bit, and it would not shock me to see our top 3 starters regress as an aggregate. Those should be more than made up by a full year of Sanchez, a full year of Infante (over Raburn et al) an either a better Rick Porcello (who is still young and trending up) or a full year of Smyly (who might regress a bit himself, but I still expect a full season of Smyly to be better than Porcello last year).

    Just looking at our lineup:

    Delmon ---> Victor (4 WAR)
    Boesh/Berry ---> Hunter (3.5 WAR)
    Raburn ---> Infante (4 WAR)

    Without factoring in our pitching upgrades we jump from a 87 PYT team up to a 98 PYT team with relatively conservative estimates (Victor as a 3 WAR, Hunter as a 3 WAR and Infante as a 2 WAR).

    Pitching wise it is an extra half season of Anibal vs the Turner/Corsby/Wilk tandem (9 starts) and then either Rick Porcello vs himself or Drew Smyly vs Rick Porcello. Either way I think it's reasonable to expect an extra 1 or 2 WAR from our rotation.

    Bullpen wise I would expect it to net about the same either way. I think our pen will actually be better than last year. More Downs/Al-Al/Villareal, no Valverde. But really, it is difficult to predict any real change in WAR because of the sheer volume of pitchers used and the relatively sporadic nature of their performance.

    In the end, as the team sits right now we go from a 87 PYT team to a team that should PYT in the upper 90s assuming nothing crazy happens on the injury front.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Take a look at FIP or WAR. Sanchez has had (and still has) some bad infield defenses behind him. Addressing the guys above him in ERA+, McCarthy is a significant injury risk, and got a lesser contract because of it. I am not sold on Lohse. Dempster has been about a 3 win player the last 3 years in the NL central, and will be playing in the AL east. Sanchez has been a 4 win player over that timeframe, and does not make significantly more annually. There is a chance that one of these contracts will be better, but at this point, it is far from the foregone conclusion you are making it out to be. I don't think we got a great deal, but it isn't a horrendous deal either. I think that it is the kind of deal that a contending ballclub makes.
    Sure. The last two years in WAR:

    McCarthy: 6.2
    Lohse: 6.1
    Jackson: 6.6
    Dempster: 6.0
    Sanchez: 6.6

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longgone View Post
    If he stays healthy it will be fine. A couple of million more or less per year won't make or break anything. The risk with any pitcher is that they'll break down, and then you're paying for nothing.
    The problem is that he's still going to be expensive when it's time for all of the other Tigers to become (more) expensive (Max, Doug, Justin, Miguel, Austin).

  32. #112
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    In regards to our expected win total next year, I think we also have to keep in mind what our competition did, particularly within the division since nearly half our games come against them. And in that regard I think things look even more promising for us. I think the White Sox will likely get worse due to regression of guys and the loss of Youk and possibly AJ, the Indians appear to be in full rebuilding mode so they should be worse and the Twins should be worse as well with the losses of Span, Revere and the likely regression of Willingham. The Royals should be better with the additions they've made but that doesn't make up for how the rest of the division is likely to be worse. So even if we didn't get any better we should win a few more games just because of how the competition is likely to be easier.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    I think it is quite possible playing for Detroit last year helped land Sanchez.
    For sure, I'm sure if he never played for us it's very likely he would've taken the Cubs offer. For starters he gets to pitch in a bigger market(albeit a worse team) and for another he gets to stay in the NL where he pitched his whole career.(assuming he wasn't traded to another AL team besides us at the deadline) Also he gave us a chance to match the offer, if he never played for us I find it hard to believe he would've done it. This is just another example of when you trade for a guy you don't just trade for what is left on the contract, you also get hidden advantages like this when it comes time to resign him.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoBert View Post
    Lee is one of the most temperate and knowledgeable people on this board. I trust this opinion.
    Despite the fact that he supported that commie, pinko, Trout for MVP.
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  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antrat View Post
    Despite the fact that he supported that commie, pinko, Trout for MVP.
    Actually, he owns him in fantasy; so he had capatalistic (word?) reasons for that.
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  36. #116
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    I could see this being a 95 win (by Pythag) team like it was in 2006 and maybe the best team on paper of the DD/Leyland era.
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  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hart View Post
    Yeah...I would have a hard time trading Porcello to the Angels unless it some sort of fleecing.
    I only want to trade Porcello in a fleecing.
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  38. #118
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    tiger337 is offline MotownSports Writer
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    I believe its the best Tigers team on paper since the mid 80s.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  39. #119
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    RandyMarsh is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I believe its the best Tigers team on paper since the mid 80s.
    I agree, the closest I can remember is the 08 team. The 08 team had a ton of hype and looked great on paper at the time but they also had alot of question marks, especially in the rotation. Offensively Cabrera wasn't as good then as he is now and despite Maggs unreal 07 I don't think they had anybody else on the team as good offensively as Fielder. Plus this team has more guys in or entering their prime than that team did so you don't expect as much regression.

  40. #120
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    PurpleEntity is offline MotownSports Fan
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    a trade of porcello should only be for an everyday shortshop; not a relief pitcher or platoon lf...that would be a huge mistake...we do not have to trade him now but can closer to trade deadline unless an elvis andras type player emerges via trade; I say no to dee gorden as he seems like a berry

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