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  1. #41
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    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Love this:

    Here

    "Bob Dutton, Kansas City Star: "Why Cabrera? The simple answer is I believe the players know more about what players do and mean in terms of value than I do. I talked to a lot of players (not just Royals) and to other reporters who talked to a lot of players -- and the result was overwhelming. They said Cabrera was the MVP and, generally, said it wasn't close."
    I think part of that is because Trout is a rookie and the seniority hierarchy of baseball requires them to respect the veteran. Practically every interview I hear with a player they say something like: "Joe Veteran is just an amazing player. I've learned so much from him. I pick his brain every chance I get." I think they are taught to say stuff like that. And then there is the whole rookie hazing thing. I bet if players had a secret ballot there would be quite a few who picked Trout over Cabrera.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  3. #43
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    I wonder if some of the voters went with Cabrera because they were turned off by the disparaging things said about him by a lot of the Trout people.
    Sometimes the rudeness and smugness was really hard to take.
    "I'm disabled"

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    Mitch Albom writes a column today that recycles every cliche out there against stat people into one column and on the flip side Keith Law says Cabrera winning the award is "embarassing". Tools. Both of them.
    Keith Law a tool? Sure. But I like Mitch Albom and thought his article was pretty good.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I bet if players had a secret ballot there would be quite a few who picked Trout over Cabrera.
    I love speculation as wall, but I would guess if it were a secret ballot cast, the margin for Cabrera would only widen. It was clear by everyone within MLB that Cabrera was far and away the players choice for MVP.

  6. #46
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    Mitch Albom's article was cookie cutter. The same article was written 20 years ago. He just changed the names.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Mitch Albom's article was cookie cutter. The same article was written 20 years ago. He just changed the names.
    20 years ago I was 7 years old. It was fresh to me.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I love speculation as wall, but I would guess if it were a secret ballot cast, the margin for Cabrera would only widen. It was clear by everyone within MLB that Cabrera was far and away the players choice for MVP.
    He appears to have been their choice, but I would guess that seniority played a role in it. Players respect fielding and base running a lot, so I doubt every player in baseball thought Cabrera was better than Trout.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  9. #49
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    What would have it taken for Cabrera to beat Trout in WAR? Is it possible to give Cabrera 30 SBs and cut his errors in half and plug that into a calc?

    I still think Law should create his own WAR of the Year trophy and throw a big party around it.

  10. #50
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    It's obvious that this was a make-up call for 2010.
    2014 AAT: Drew VerHagen

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I love speculation as wall, but I would guess if it were a secret ballot cast, the margin for Cabrera would only widen. It was clear by everyone within MLB that Cabrera was far and away the players choice for MVP.
    I agree with this and wonder why someone would think the players would cast for Trout as opposed to Cabby when they openly said they would favor Cabby? Are they scared or something? Doubt it. There was no race issue IMO...what would be the controversy if the players simply said they thought Trout was better?
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordstanley View Post
    What would have it taken for Cabrera to beat Trout in WAR? Is it possible to give Cabrera 30 SBs and cut his errors in half and plug that into a calc?

    .
    If Cabrera was an above average fielder at third base (maybe 75th percentile) and 30 stolen base guy, he'd catch Trout in WAR. Another way to look at is suppose you think they were both average fielders. In that case, it becomes pretty close but Trout still has the lead by 1/2 win. 15 SB (along with other base running stuff) might close the gap there.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  13. #53
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    Interestingly, Cabrera also won the following awards:

    The Hank Aaron Award for the AL's best hitter as voted on by fans and media
    The Sporting News Player of the Year (by TSN?, who is still around??)
    The MLBPA's ML Players Choice Award (Player voted)

    Trout won BA's ML Player of the Year.

    Are there other Player of the Year/MVP awards I am missing?
    2014 AAT: Drew VerHagen

  14. #54
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Keith Law a tool? Sure. But I like Mitch Albom and thought his article was pretty good.
    What did you think was good about it? Because I can't find anything even remotely nice to say about it.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  16. #56
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    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    What did you think was good about it? Because I can't find anything even remotely nice to say about it.
    If you think of it as a stereotype of every anti-saber article ever written, it's kind of humorous.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Yup. I do not think Law had a vote, but I thought I heard him say (on the radio) 'on his ballot' he had Cano over Miggy and had Miggy thiiird! lol
    Having Cano ahead of Cabrera isn't unreasonable at all. What about that decision makes it 'lol' worthy?
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I agree with this and wonder why someone would think the players would cast for Trout as opposed to Cabby when they openly said they would favor Cabby? Are they scared or something? Doubt it. There was no race issue IMO...what would be the controversy if the players simply said they thought Trout was better?
    Do you have tiger337 blocked? He answered your question before you asked it.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    If you think of it as a stereotype of every anti-saber article ever written, it's kind of humorous.
    I think he missed a reference to blogs and living in your parents basement but he did cover most of the bases in a fairly short article. I have to admit that is pretty impressive.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  21. #61
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    Trout had a better year but I am reallly happy for Cabrera and the Tigers that he won it!! This is payback for the robbery of 1987 baby!
    Introibo ad altare Dei

    2013 AAT: Jim Price

  22. #62
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    AAT: Ian Kinsler

  23. #63
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    Buster Olney tweeted multiple times near the end of the season that coaches/managers/players were pretty universal in picking Cabrera as MVP. Front office execs were pretty universal in picking Trout. Read into that what you will.
    Dreaming about a repeat of 1984, 1968, 1945 and 1935

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    Having Cano ahead of Cabrera isn't unreasonable at all. What about that decision makes it 'lol' worthy?
    Yes it is. I disagree with you and find the idea funny. Cano is not a better player than Cabrera. Not last year and not next year. You think different...and you would be the only one to do that this year. Cabby got 22 first and the rest were 2nd place votes.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
    Buster Olney tweeted multiple times near the end of the season that coaches/managers/players were pretty universal in picking Cabrera as MVP. Front office execs were pretty universal in picking Trout. Read into that what you will.
    Front office execs spend to much time looking at stats and never watch baseball games?
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Yes it is. I disagree with you and find the idea funny. Cano is not a better player than Cabrera. Not last year and not next year. You think different...and you would be the only one to do that this year. Cabby got 22 first and the rest were 2nd place votes.
    He's not the only one. I would pick Cabrera over Cano, but I don't think it's ridiculous for someone to prefer Cano.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Yes it is. I disagree with you and find the idea funny. Cano is not a better player than Cabrera. Not last year and not next year. You think different...and you would be the only one to do that this year. Cabby got 22 first and the rest were 2nd place votes.
    You think different than me and the sportswriters of america agree with you (in general). I take that as a point in my favor honestly. Really, I take your disagreeing with me as a point in my favor.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    He's not the only one. I would pick Cabrera over Cano, but I don't think it's ridiculous for someone to prefer Cano.
    I'd pick Cabrera as well, I just don't get the 'lol' part. Cano had a monster year while playing good defense at a premium defensive position. There have been far worse choices for MVP in recent history.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    You think different than me and the sportswriters of america agree with you (in general). I take that as a point in my favor honestly. Really, I take your disagreeing with me as a point in my favor.
    Not so slight of a disguised dig there buddy. Let me just say I feel EXACTLY the same.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Not so slight of a disguised dig there buddy. Let me just say I feel EXACTLY the same.
    It wasn't disguised.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Not so slight of a disguised dig there buddy. Let me just say I feel EXACTLY the same.
    I feel exactly the same as the not so slight of a disguised dig.
    It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/...yx-d41sg12.png

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    It wasn't disguised.
    Good to know.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  33. #73
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    Can't we all just shoot up some heroin and get along?
    "I'm disabled"

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    I'm not a Star Wars fan at all, but I would read every damn Star Wars novel twice before I read any of his sugary tripe even once.
    "I'm disabled"

  35. #75
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    The irony is that Albom has spent much of his life covering sports for a living yet insults Star Wars fans and baseball stats fans for not living life. Sports - whether you watch on TV, in person, or like to analyse stats- is a hobby. As is watching movies. Done for pleasure during one's leisure time. Neither is about saving lives or making scientific breakthroughs or generating profits - although some sports fans and moviegoers do make real differences through meaningful work in their day jobs. How sad one must be to build a career around sports like Albom did when he obviously sees it as a trivial pursuit and is contemptuous towards a good chunk of its followers.

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    Mitch Albom writes a column today that recycles every cliche out there against stat people into one column and on the flip side Keith Law says Cabrera winning the award is "embarassing". Tools. Both of them.
    Yeah, for him it probably is embarrassing. That being said, didn't Miggy win the award that the players voted on? If so, is Law saying he is more "enlightened" then the players? Uh...I don't think so.
    It's pronounced Canada, and no, I haven't.

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    Listening to this interview with Keith Law, you would think Cabrera was one of the worst players in the game. This is why I wanted him to win so bad. Just to rub it in this DB's face.
    Keith Law on Cabrera MVP win: "What is wrong with these people"
    "I'm disabled"

  38. #78
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    Its good to see that Albom can come out and be the traditionalist D bag to juxtapose the sabr D bag Law.
    It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/...yx-d41sg12.png

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    If I was running a team I would lean on a saber metric approach. However there is a storied and fun element to arguing what "valuable" is. That's part of this award and people like Keith Law who won't allow it to be a fun and traditional thing annoy me as much as the "sabers are just nerds in their mom's basement" crowd.

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    That's what's wrong with these awards, any writer who doesn't have Cabrera/Trout 1/2 in whatever order they think is right should have his vote taken away. Whoever voted Beltre ahead of Trout doesn't deserve a vote
    Put me on record. Prince Fielder will still OPS 850+ in years 7-8-9 of this contract. (sucks that my signature has to stay this for 7 years now)

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