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  1. #1
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    Default ShortStop - What are the options?




    In my opinion, ShortStop is the area of most need. I would like to see a good upgrade defensively for Peralta. I think Peralta has been adequate offensively, but defensively his range is obviously diminishing and he isn't very fleet of foot on the base paths. The range really becomes a factor when you consider that Cabrera has bad range too.

    I know that we have Peralta under contract for this year, so it isn't like we don't have someone already penciled in at SS, but honestly I'd be happier going with Garcia and Dirks in the OF and finding a good upgrade at SS than trying to upgrade to a (potentially) great OF and still keep Peralta at SS.

    Of course, it's easy to say that we'd like to upgrade the position, it's a lot harder to actually do it. I don't believe there are really any good free agents and other than the guy from Texas that'll take an lot of talent to pry loose, I don't think there are too many available for trade either.

    Any thoughts?

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    DD picked up Peralta's option and I doubt he trades him. Illitch wants offense and lots of it.
    2012 AL Champs

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    NeedMoreLike84 is offline Released
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff6851 View Post
    DD picked up Peralta's option and I doubt he trades him. Illitch wants offense and lots of it.
    When were you guys talking about that?

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    I think DD will explore other shortstops, but I expect Peralta will be the 2013 shortstop. Possibilities include JJ Hardy and Yunel Escobar. Andrus also might be available, but he'll be really expensive.
    Lee Panas
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    NeedMoreLike84 is offline Released
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I think DD will explore other shortstops, but I expect Peralta will be the 2013 shortstop. Possibilities include JJ Hardy and Yunel Escobar. Andrus also might be available, but he'll be really expensive.
    Could be they get a more athletic shortstop and peralta becomes the utility guy which I would be very cool with.

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    I think we need to get a plus defender for the bench. Worth fits the bill, but I"d like a better bat than that. I think you can go after someone who is borderline starter quality and use him to give Peralta rest and at 2B at times, using INfante in the OF some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    Could be they get a more athletic shortstop and peralta becomes the utility guy which I would be very cool with.
    That might be a good role for him, but he's too expensive to be a utility guy.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    Gustavo Nunez. He'll have to be offered back from Arizona if they can't keep him on the roster. After missing pretty much a full season, what are the odds that he'll stick.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight; my goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. -- Psalm 144:1-2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I think we need to get a plus defender for the bench.
    Why? Do you think that Leyland is going to put in a defensive replacement late in games for Peralta? Or Infante? Or Cabrera? He didn't do that often in 2012. Why do you expect him to do that in 2013?
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight; my goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. -- Psalm 144:1-2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Why? Do you think that Leyland is going to put in a defensive replacement late in games for Peralta? Or Infante? Or Cabrera? He didn't do that often in 2012. Why do you expect him to do that in 2013?
    Well for one we didn't really have that player in 2012. I do acknowledge that Leyland would have to be willing to use the player though and he'd have to be in on the idea of Infante playing the OF at times, probably against most lefties. I'd have loved Izturis for the role and Didi Gregorio would be a nice fit as well.

  11. #11
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    Santiago is under contract and will almost surely be the utility infielder. The Tigers want him to play winter ball this year after taking it off last year. That could help him bounce back to his former self.
    Lee Panas
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    You are probably right, but I can dream!

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    ballmich is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Well for one we didn't really have that player in 2012. I do acknowledge that Leyland would have to be willing to use the player though and he'd have to be in on the idea of Infante playing the OF at times, probably against most lefties. I'd have loved Izturis for the role and Didi Gregorio would be a nice fit as well.
    We did have Worth all last year, and if they wanted him on the major league roster, they could have made that happen. I don't think he's a plus defender, but he is pretty decent, and certainly better than Peralta.

    The fact remains, that Leyland isn't going to pull his starting infield for a defensive replacement, not when they are all every day major league veterans. We see him do that in the OF, but those are platoon guys and fringy players to begin with.

    So really what you are talking about here, is the 40 starts that a reserve IF might get between SS/2B/3B. That being the case, why do we need a plus defender to fill that role? Why not just the best all-around utility infielder that we can get our hands on?

    Besides, almost certainly this is going to be Santiago's role.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight; my goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. -- Psalm 144:1-2

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    Could be interesting having a Santiago and Infante combo in there... be just like '03!!

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    two thoughts on this;

    #1, the free agent market sucks, Stephen Drew is your top SS free agent and here is what his awesomeness did for 2012;

    Year Tm Lg G PA AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
    2012 TOT MLB 79 327 287 38 64 7 28 37 76 .223 .309 .348 .657
    2012 ARI NL 40 155 135 17 26 2 12 19 35 .193 .290 .311 .601
    2012 OAK AL 39 172 152 21 38 5 16 18 41 .250 .326 .382 .707
    162 Game Avg. 162 682 612 83 162 15 70 58 121 .265 .328 .433 .762


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/9/2012.

    Sources are thinking Drew will get $10-$12M per year for around 2 years was that last I heard.

    Your #2 top SS free agent is Kelly Johnson, again, his numbers should make you go "Meh.."

    Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
    2012 30 TOR AL 142 581 507 61 114 16 55 14 2 62 159 .225 .313 .365 .678
    162 Game Avg. 162 654 573 87 146 19 68 13 5 70 144 .255 .338 .429 .767


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/9/2012.

    And Johnson is looking for full time work let alone $6-$8M per year also. Which brings me to my next point.


    #2) Manny of the "don't totally suck" free agent SS's that are available do not want a bench or "depth" job. They will sign with a team that will give them a starting job, or next best is to sign with a team that will promise them a chance to win the SS position but with some significant playing time, or lastly, any job with a team on the MLB roster.

    The Tigers have already committed to Peralta for 2013 and there isn't a good SS free agent that will want to come to Detroit and keep a bench warm for Peralta between innings when they can be starting (or getting much more playing time) with another team instead.

    I think the Tigers best bet is to try and do a minor league deal for a "golve guy" (great defense, can't hit...) at SS or try and steal a minor league glove guy as a throw in on the next big trade deal with another team. But frankly the top guys are not that great and signing one of the guys below Drew and Johnson shouldn't make you say "contender" when you read it in the papers.
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    I the options regarding shortstop for a Tigers fan are:

    1. Accept Peralta as the starting SS.

    2. ***** about Peralta being the starting SS.

    I hope I am ultimately wrong about this, but this is what I see happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    two thoughts on this;

    #1, the free agent market sucks, Stephen Drew is your top SS free agent and here is what his awesomeness did for 2012;

    Sources are thinking Drew will get $10-$12M per year for around 2 years was that last I heard.

    Your #2 top SS free agent is Kelly Johnson, again, his numbers should make you go "Meh.."

    And Johnson is looking for full time work let alone $6-$8M per year also. Which brings me to my next point....
    I'm pretty sure that Kelly Johnson has never played SS

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Gustavo Nunez. He'll have to be offered back from Arizona if they can't keep him on the roster. After missing pretty much a full season, what are the odds that he'll stick.
    Thought he was drafted by Pittsburgh ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottish caveman View Post
    Thought he was drafted by Pittsburgh ??

    Pittsburgh waived him.

    Larry
    2012 AAT Brandon Loy

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    Quote Originally Posted by plantcitytigersfan View Post
    Pittsburgh waived him.

    Larry
    2012 AAT Brandon Loy
    And claimed by Arizona.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight; my goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. -- Psalm 144:1-2

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    STLTiger69 is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Kelly Johnson has never played SS
    DOGH!

    Yea, my appolgies, I heard top free agent infielders (in my head at least... ), but your right, totally my bad and Johnson is NOT a SS and thanks for pointing it out!!!
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I think DD will explore other shortstops, but I expect Peralta will be the 2013 shortstop. Possibilities include JJ Hardy and Yunel Escobar. Andrus also might be available, but he'll be really expensive.
    DiDi Gregorius and Zack Cosart also options. Said this in an earlier thread I believe.

  23. #23
    will the thrill is offline MotownSports Fan
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    so why are we so worried about Peralta's defense when the stats show he's better than we all think? Only JJ Hardy and Brendan Ryan had a better UZR (fangraphs) and led the AL (2nd to Ian Desmond .855) in RZR Revised Zone Rating at .853.

    Revised Zone Rating (RZR) measures, “the proportion of balls hit into a fielder’s zone that he successfully converted into an out”


    Rating RZR
    Excellent 0.940
    Great 0.900
    Above Average 0.860
    Average 0.835
    Below Average 0.800
    Poor 0.750
    Awful 0.700

    So he's just below "Above Average" I admit we read and here enough about how bad his range is, but the numbers don't seem to correlate with that the last couple seasons. That's what we want right, make outs on the plays that enter your zone?
    Put me on record. Prince Fielder will still OPS 850+ in years 7-8-9 of this contract. (sucks that my signature has to stay this for 7 years now)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by will the thrill View Post
    so why are we so worried about Peralta's defense when the stats show he's better than we all think? Only JJ Hardy and Brendan Ryan had a better UZR (fangraphs) and led the AL (2nd to Ian Desmond .855) in RZR Revised Zone Rating at .853.

    Revised Zone Rating (RZR) measures, “the proportion of balls hit into a fielder’s zone that he successfully converted into an out”


    Rating RZR
    Excellent 0.940
    Great 0.900
    Above Average 0.860
    Average 0.835
    Below Average 0.800
    Poor 0.750
    Awful 0.700

    So he's just below "Above Average" I admit we read and here enough about how bad his range is, but the numbers don't seem to correlate with that the last couple seasons. That's what we want right, make outs on the plays that enter your zone?
    and BP has him at -6 DRAA. So who ya gonna believe?

    Personally, I don't think Peralta's defense was much of a negative factor other than a bit early in the season, but I can't prove it one way or the other anymore than any of these systems can.
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    Zack Cozart will be a star..... It must be true. Red's longtime broadcaster Marty Brenneman said so. And he has seen a couple of good ones over the years....Dave Concepcion and Barry Larkin.
    What would it take to get Cozart? The Reds are looking for a leadoff man that plays the outfield.....How about sending them Quinten Berry and perhaps Porcello?

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    will the thrill is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    and BP has him at -6 DRAA. So who ya gonna believe?

    Personally, I don't think Peralta's defense was much of a negative factor other than a bit early in the season, but I can't prove it one way or the other anymore than any of these systems can.
    All we can do in my opinion is compare the stats to the other shortstops
    Put me on record. Prince Fielder will still OPS 850+ in years 7-8-9 of this contract. (sucks that my signature has to stay this for 7 years now)

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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    The Reds are looking for a leadoff man that plays the outfield.....How about sending them Quinten Berry and perhaps Porcello?
    You mean they are looking for Billy Hamilton...
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    Quote Originally Posted by will the thrill View Post
    All we can do in my opinion is compare the stats to the other shortstops
    But different systems rate them differently relative to each other as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    Zack Cozart will be a star..... It must be true. Red's longtime broadcaster Marty Brenneman said so. And he has seen a couple of good ones over the years....Dave Concepcion and Barry Larkin.
    What would it take to get Cozart? The Reds are looking for a leadoff man that plays the outfield.....How about sending them Quinten Berry and perhaps Porcello?
    It is the true the Reds need a CFer but Berry is a AAAA player and Walt isn't stupid. Any conversation the Tigers have with Walt for Cozart begins and ends with Rondon. The Reds are looking for a closer so they can move Chapman to the rotation. In other words....these two teams are a bad fit.
    go reds

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Any conversation the Tigers have with Walt for Cozart begins and ends with Rondon.
    Get it done DD!
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    [QUOTE=will the thrill;2838403]so why are we so worried about Peralta's defense when the stats show he's better than we all think? Only JJ Hardy and Brendan Ryan had a better UZR (fangraphs) and led the AL (2nd to Ian Desmond .855) in RZR Revised Zone Rating at .853.

    Revised Zone Rating (RZR) measures, “the proportion of balls hit into a fielder’s zone that he successfully converted into an out”


    Rating RZR
    Excellent 0.940
    Great 0.900
    Above Average 0.860
    Average 0.835
    Below Average 0.800
    Poor 0.750
    Awful 0.700

    So he's just below "Above Average" I admit we read and here enough about how bad his range is, but the numbers don't seem to correlate with that the last couple seasons. That's what we want right, make outs on the plays that enter your zone?[/QUOTE]

    There is no way that Peralta makes the plays that enter his zone (not to mention the plays that Cabrera can't get to either). He makes the plays that are hit right at him, a couple steps to the left or right, or soft ground balls hit over 2nd due to him always shading up the middle.

    Our defensive standards for shortstops have dwindled over the years and fortunetly the Tigers had Inge at third to compensate. With Cabrera at 3rd now, a shortstop with no range comes to hurt the team much more. I know the arguemnt will come back with "would you rather have a guy who ranges to make the spectacular plays but boots the routine plays?". And my answer would be yes. Chances are pretty good that same guy who can range to make plays also can run the bases. Offense 1st is a priority at too many positions with this team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EppOnite View Post

    There is no way that Peralta makes the plays that enter his zone (not to mention the plays that Cabrera can't get to either). He makes the plays that are hit right at him, a couple steps to the left or right, or soft ground balls hit over 2nd due to him always shading up the middle.

    Our defensive standards for shortstops have dwindled over the years a...
    so you're saying the baseball info solutions stringers are all biased some mystery factor when they watch Detroit play?
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 11-10-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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    Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    When were you guys talking about that?
    I think it's something that's pretty obvious.
    2012 AL Champs

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    What happened to the Cale Iorg love!
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    Quote Originally Posted by benrush View Post
    Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!
    I think Peralta's option was picked up because they need a shortstop right now and $6 million is a good deal for him. I hope people are not counting on Suarez to be ready to start in 2014. He's an interesting prospect, but he's far from a sure thing. He's had one good year in A-ball.
    Lee Panas
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuNk42AE View Post
    What happened to the Cale Iorg love!
    i hadn't checked on on him in a while. i know about his weaknesses as a prospect, but WTF happened this year?!?
    Evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    so you're saying the baseball info solutions stringers are all biased some mystery factor when they watch Detroit play?
    According to Colin Wyers at BP and others, there is evidence that there is a problem with bias according to how players position themselves. What might be happening is that sometimes stringers incorrectly mark location based on where a player is positioned. For example, they might instinctively record a ball as in the zone if it's close to a player even if the player happens to be playing out of zone. So, if a SS typically positions himself differently than other shortstops, there might be some bias.
    Lee Panas
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    According to Colin Wyers at BP and others, there is evidence that there is a problem with bias according to how players position themselves. What might be happening is that sometimes stringers incorrectly mark location based on where a player is positioned. For example, they might instinctively record a ball as in the zone if it's close to a player even if the player happens to be playing out of zone. So, if a SS typically positions himself differently than other shortstops, there might be some bias.
    so that raises an interesting question. If a shortstop is more dedicated to his craft, studies hitters relentlessly and so positions himself more optimally than other shortstops (or maybe is just gifted with total recall of where he has fielded balls against every player - whichever doesn't matter) should he get credit for that? What do we care about, his absolute ability to cover ground or his ability to contribute to outs? I don't think the answer to this is always clear cut - though it should be explicit in an advanced stat's statement of what it is trying to measure, or alternatively in an intelligent critique of what it is actually measuring!
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 11-10-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    so that raises an interesting question. If a shortstop is more dedicated to his craft, studies hitters relentlessly and so positions himself more optimally than other shortstops (or maybe is just gifted with total recall of where he has fielded balls against every player - whichever doesn't matter) should he get credit for that? What do we care about, his absolute ability to cover ground or his ability to contribute to outs? I don't think the answer to this is always clear cut - though it should be explicit in an advanced stat's statement of what it is trying to measure.
    The key for me is a player's ability to turn batted balls into outs whether he does it with range or positioning or arm or whatever combination. I think that is what the advanced stats are intended to measure. How well they are working, especially over small sample sizes, is questionable.
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