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  1. #321
    STLTiger69 is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    Ariz would be in direct competition with the Tigers to get Cabrera; they would not want to settle for Peralta. Besides with Tulowitzki on the way to Detroit, where does Asdrubal even fit?
    I like that!
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  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    I mean didn't Drew check in this year with a -10.7 URZ/150?
    Yes, he did, recovering from a broken ankle. Consider Asdrubal averaged a UZR/150 of -11.62 over 5 years

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    1st direct mention I've seen of the Tigers "pursuing" A. Cabrera:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Mitchell View Post
    Not gonna happen here. We have little young pitching to give up. If we did, we wont trade with the Indians.
    So....the Indians are going to try and get pitching for A. Cabrera? I would rather have them get a bust from Detroit than a good pitcher from another club.
    But you're right, we never used to deal with division rivals. Maybe a 3 team trade? We would have to give up some talent. Maybe even a Porcello?
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  4. #324
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    Drew or nothing.
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  5. #325
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    Asdrubal is a poor fielder.....no thanks.
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  6. #326
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    While it would be tempting to see Bruce Drennan melt down on Sports Time Ohio over the Tigers taking one of their better players...I don't want Asdrubal Cabrera. I'd rather have Jhonny or Drew than watch AC play for 7-10 years

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Drew or nothing.
    Ugh

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longgone View Post
    What makes you say that? He made significant progress last year.
    Maybe, but he still walks too many and struggled in AAA

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Maybe, but he still walks too many and struggled in AAA
    He does walk alot but I think your walk rate can be deceiving, especially when you are a reliever. Since they only pitch 1 game at a time they can walk 1 every other appearance and have a terrible walk rate, but overall if you only walk 1 batter in an inning chances are they aren't going to score. I'm more concerned with guys that have "breakdowns" and completely lose track of the strike zone when they are off. And judging by the game logs it doesn't appear that Rondon was like that. Only 5 times out of his 52 appearances last year did he walk multiple batters, so most of the time it's just a walk here and there which drives up his rate. If he can punch out 10+ per 9 I think you can get away with a high BB rate, especially if they only come 1 at a time.

  10. #330
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    I'll buy that to some degree. I'm still not ready to let him close, but if he makes the pen and earns it throughout the year, I'm fine with something like that.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    Asdrubal UZR/150 by year: -14.9, -6.9, -13.4, -12.6, -10.3
    Peralta UZR/150 by year: -1.2, 9.3, -1.2, 10.7, 11.7
    Drew UZR/150 by year: -17.6, 3.1, 10.0, 8.7, -10.7
    UZR shouldn't be looked at alone. Have to cross reference with +/-, DRS, and even fan scouting reports.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    Interstingly,....I've never really heard the words "Asdrubal Cabrera" and "major liability in the field" used together in the same sentence before...
    He's not a very good fielder. He's below average from what I can ascertain.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    He does walk alot but I think your walk rate can be deceiving, especially when you are a reliever.
    Especially in the 9th where you don't even care about rolling over the lineup. But I think WHIP is still paramount for a reliever - because to me if a reliever is walking guys startegically - "Todd Jones style" to get to match ups he likes better, then we should not see hits given up along with those walks and the pitcher's WHIP should stay down. On the other hand, if you are just talking a reliever with command issues - who is walking guys he needs to be getting out, then the hits and walks will be there together and WHIP will be higher.

    Problem in Rondon's case is that being a young fire baller, the odds are he is walking guys because his command sucks and not to set up preferable match-ups. Rondon's WHIP has been very erratic. Unless he maintains a really gaudy K rate against MLB quality hitters, he will be in trouble.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 12-01-2012 at 02:05 AM.
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  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    He does walk alot but I think your walk rate can be deceiving, especially when you are a reliever. Since they only pitch 1 game at a time they can walk 1 every other appearance and have a terrible walk rate, but overall if you only walk 1 batter in an inning chances are they aren't going to score. I'm more concerned with guys that have "breakdowns" and completely lose track of the strike zone when they are off. And judging by the game logs it doesn't appear that Rondon was like that. Only 5 times out of his 52 appearances last year did he walk multiple batters, so most of the time it's just a walk here and there which drives up his rate. If he can punch out 10+ per 9 I think you can get away with a high BB rate, especially if they only come 1 at a time.
    From what I've read, his command is not good. The walk rate is not an aberration.

  15. #335
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    One SS that might have the post hype vibe, and might be pickupable is Dee Gordon. He's got some crazy speed, and should have an option or two remaining, so in case the Dodgers are ready to move on there, they might make him available.
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  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Especially in the 9th where you don't even care about rolling over the lineup. But I think WHIP is still paramount for a reliever - because to me if a reliever is walking guys startegically - "Todd Jones style" to get to match ups he likes better, then we should not see hits given up along with those walks and the pitcher's WHIP should stay down. On the other hand, if you are just talking a reliever with command issues - who is walking guys he needs to be getting out, then the hits and walks will be there together and WHIP will be higher.

    Problem in Rondon's case is that being a young fire baller, the odds are he is walking guys because his command sucks and not to set up preferable match-ups. Rondon's WHIP has been very erratic. Unless he maintains a really gaudy K rate against MLB quality hitters, he will be in trouble.
    When Bruce Rondon moved up, he created a vacancy that Tyler Clark filled with more reliability. He did not have the position long enough to wow anyone except the locals. I trust we will hear more in the future about him.
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  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'll buy that to some degree. I'm still not ready to let him close, but if he makes the pen and earns it throughout the year, I'm fine with something like that.
    On the other hand , he has closed quite effectively his first 3 years in our system, at each and every level.

    I think the job is his to lose.

    Of course, I am sure Smokes will await your approval before he makes that decision.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    So....the Indians are going to try and get pitching for A. Cabrera? I would rather have them get a bust from Detroit than a good pitcher from another club.
    But you're right, we never used to deal with division rivals. Maybe a 3 team trade? We would have to give up some talent. Maybe even a Porcello?
    Sounds like Cabrera has range similar to Peralta?
    Porcello needs some infield "saves" to get his WHIP under 1.42.
    I wonder what the average WHIP is for an MLB starter?

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Mitchell View Post
    Sounds like Cabrera has range similar to Peralta?
    Porcello needs some infield "saves" to get his WHIP under 1.42.
    I wonder what the average WHIP is for an MLB starter?
    It was 1.334 for starters this year.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 12-01-2012 at 04:06 AM.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    From what I've read, his command is not good. The walk rate is not an aberration.
    Rondon is a developing talent. He made progress last year with command and his secondary pitches. I would expect he'll continue to progress. Talent isn't always stable, it's often ascending or descending.

  21. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by irvink View Post
    Saw that re: Asdrubal. Not sure what he would cost, but maybe something like: Smyly or Porcello + Crosby + A. Garcia?
    What? Asdrubal Cabrera is a somewhat above average hitter at best, and is a below average fielder at best; at a position where we need more fielding. How that translates into trading our best pitching prospect, a decent SP, another pitching prospect and arguably our 1st or 2nd best positional prospect is beyond me.

    I'm not saying that Cabrera's a bad player, he'd be a nice option for a number of teams that already have good infield defense and need a solid bat at SS, but that does not describe the Tigers.
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  22. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longgone View Post
    Rondon is a developing talent. He made progress last year with command and his secondary pitches. I would expect he'll continue to progress. Talent isn't always stable, it's often ascending or descending.
    Well, if you call getting your walk rate in '12 back just to where it was in '10 (4.5/9), after it was in the stratosphere in '11 (7.6) progress, then sure.

    4.5 BB/9ip is not ready for prime time in my book. But fair enough - I do just hate pitchers that can't throw strikes.
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  23. #343
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    If he's walking a batter every two innings, that means your closer has a 50% chance of giving the other team a free runner in the 9th inning. I'd be nervous about those odds...

  24. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Well, if you call getting your walk rate in '12 back just to where it was in '10 (4.5/9), after it was in the stratosphere in '11 (7.6) progress, then sure.

    4.5 BB/9ip is not ready for prime time in my book. But fair enough - I do just hate pitchers that can't throw strikes.
    Joel Zumaya had a 4.5/9 BB rate in '04 and '05 and was fairly effective witha 4.5 in '06 for Detroit. Random, I know, but that's as perfect as an example can get. He only had a 1.176 WHIP that year because nobody could hit him.
    Last edited by Yoda; 12-01-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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  25. #345
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    If Bruce is walking that many in the minors, how do you think he would do in MLB, facing much bettter and more patient hitters?
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  26. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Joel Zumaya had a 4.5/9 BB rate in '04 and '05 and was fairly effective witha 4.5 in '06 for Detroit. Random, I know, but that's as perfect as an example can get. He only had a 1.176 WHIP that year because nobody could hit him.
    Fair point. It's a little hard to compare Rondon's MiLB numbers to Zumaya's. Joel's look a lot more consistent, but that could easily just be because as a starter Joel pitched so many more innings that his year to year and level to level sample sizes are much larger - which could be hiding any of the more erratic periods that show up in Rondon's numbers.

    Then again, on the flip side of the same argument, Rondon is a guy who was only pitched 196 innings in 5 seasons. His 53 IP in '12 was the first time he had thrown more than 40 in a season since rookie ball, so we also have to hope we aren't looking at Ryan Perry Part Deux.
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  27. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Well, if you call getting your walk rate in '12 back just to where it was in '10 (4.5/9), after it was in the stratosphere in '11 (7.6) progress, then sure.

    4.5 BB/9ip is not ready for prime time in my book. But fair enough - I do just hate pitchers that can't throw strikes.
    You can't tell everything from stats. He's much better with his command than '10

  28. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzaki View Post
    If he's walking a batter every two innings, that means your closer has a 50% chance of giving the other team a free runner in the 9th inning. I'd be nervous about those odds...
    Based on our experience with Todd Jones, Rodney & Valverde, this should be nothing new for Tiger fans.
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  29. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    If Bruce is walking that many in the minors, how do you think he would do in MLB, facing much bettter and more patient hitters?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Joel Zumaya had a 4.5/9 BB rate in '04 and '05 and was fairly effective witha 4.5 in '06 for Detroit. Random, I know, but that's as perfect as an example can get. He only had a 1.176 WHIP that year because nobody could hit him.
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  30. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    Based on our experience with Todd Jones, Rodney & Valverde, this should be nothing new for Tiger fans.
    Interestingly enough, Jones only walked less than 3/9IP twice in his career. 1.7 in 2005 for Phi, and luckily enough for us, 1.5BB/9IP in 2006, the lowest walk rate season of his career.
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  31. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Interestingly enough, Jones only walked less than 3/9IP twice in his career. 1.7 in 2005 for Phi, and luckily enough for us, 1.5BB/9IP in 2006, the lowest walk rate season of his career.
    Jones was on the juice.
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  32. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    Jones was on the juice.
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  33. #353
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    I think there's about a zero percent chance that Rondon opens the season as the Tigers closer. I believe they'll either acquire someone or use a more established Benoit, Dotel or Coke. I'm not sure why Rondon should even jump ahead of AlAl or Villarreal.

    That said, I don't recall seeing the Tigers state Rondon would be the closer, just that he'd be a candidate, so that's fair. Not to knock him at all, but it just seems like there are better bets at this point, and given the contending state of the Tigers, I don't see DD and Leyland going with him unless he's otherworldly in ST and even then maybe not just yet.

  34. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    If Bruce is walking that many in the minors, how do you think he would do in MLB, facing much bettter and more patient hitters?
    You would think, but there are some examples that show the opposite. I just decided to look at young closers in the MLB and here's some examples. Craig Kimbrel walked well over 5 per 9 his last year in the minors but only 3.74 his rookie year in the majors, Chris Perez had a really high walk rate in the minors but that went down as a pro and Axford's was over 6 in the minors but dropped to slightly over 4 in the majors. I only looked at around 10 guys so I'm sure there are more examples than this but overall I just think it would be unwise to not give Rondon a shot because of a high walk rate when he has the stuff he has. I think that is the most important thing for a closer to have, and that is swing and miss filthy stuff, and it sounds like Rondon has that. Admittedly though I've only seen him pitch just one time and that was in the futures game for like 5 pitches, so maybe if I actually watched him I'd have a different opinion on him, but my major point is that we should look past just looking at his BB rate when determining if he should get the job.

  35. #355
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    I did not realize that Asdrubal was such a sub par defender when I suggested the deal. I take it all back. Sign Drew and be done with it.

  36. #356
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    He played SS in the minors....and he and Miggy would be epic together in the field.

    Still, the 36-year-old is likely to garner strong interest from teams who need right-handed power, as he is coming off his highest home run total (32) over the past five seasons. The Cubs are willing to include cash in the deal to put Soriano at a more palatable price point.


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  37. #357
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    I have watched Assdrubal play since he came up with Cleveland. The Indians moved Peralta to make a spot for him (basically, he did play 2B when he came up). He is Peralta 2.0... amazing to me how you can have such a mirror image with two different players!

    That said, between a friend in the know (supposedly!) The Tigers are in talks with Arizona about a significant deal. All of the Stephen Drew talk would be to fill in a resultant hole in the line up. Further, The sudden DD talk about Rondon and how great he is?? Reportedly, Arizona is high on Rondon and want him in the deal. Reportedly, the deal parameters if it is finally agreed to would be:

    Johnny Peralta
    Brennen Boesch
    Bruce Rondon
    Rick Porcello

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  38. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsallgood8989 View Post
    I have watched Assdrubal play since he came up with Cleveland. The Indians moved Peralta to make a spot for him (basically, he did play 2B when he came up). He is Peralta 2.0... amazing to me how you can have such a mirror image with two different players!

    That said, between a friend in the know (supposedly!) The Tigers are in talks with Arizona about a significant deal. All of the Stephen Drew talk would be to fill in a resultant hole in the line up. Further, The sudden DD talk about Rondon and how great he is?? Reportedly, Arizona is high on Rondon and want him in the deal. Reportedly, the deal parameters if it is finally agreed to would be:

    Johnny Peralta
    Brennen Boesch
    Bruce Rondon
    Rick Porcello

    for

    Justin Upton
    Propspect

    Hot stove league could be interesting!
    Pretty interesting. I just heard John Paul Morosi on MLB tonight saying Atlanta was pretty hot n' heavy for Justin Upton.

    The Diamondbacks want Andrelton Simmons from the Braves in a Justin Upton trade, reports Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (on Twitter). Earlier this month we heard the Rangers tried to acquire Simmons so they could flip him to Arizona for Upton.
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  39. #359
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    I'd do that trade in a heartbeat and I'm one of the few who likes Porcello. I assume it comes with signing Drew.

  40. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'd do that trade in a heartbeat and I'm one of the few who likes Porcello. I assume it comes with signing Drew.
    I would too but wouldn't we need to wait to see if Sanchez signs first? I'd hate to trade Porcello then not have Sanchez sign.That would leave us with Smyly and then a random rookie or someone we sign who may not be as good as Porcello.

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