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  1. #121
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    they need a long-term (as in multiple seasons) solution. Jhonny is obviously not it. the answer is not in the minors. the free agents choices this year and next are thin. Drew is a reasonable, decent solution to a big problem. plus trading Jhonny for what I assume is a decent piece helps as well. 3/27 is not an unreasonable price.

  2. #122
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    Maybe the trade would involve more than Peralta, perhaps a much bigger package including Garcia or Castellanos, and/or whomever for Upton. Of course they would have to solve the S.S. issue "in concert" with the Upton deal, perhaps signing Drew.
    Last edited by john doe; 11-20-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Sign Drew and trade Peralta, Castellanos , and Garcia plus a relever not named Rondon for Upton and JJ Putz. Possible ? We become way more athletic and get a closer.

  4. #124
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    I feel like the Tigers can get Upton from Arizona while losing only ONE of Castellanos, Garcia or Rondon.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleShreen View Post
    I feel like the Tigers can get Upton from Arizona while losing only ONE of Castellanos, Garcia or Rondon.
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  6. #126
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    I think any Tigers deal for Upton would have to start with Castellanos, and it would only have legs if AZ thinks he can handle 3B. Peralta for Putz and sign Drew seems more plausible, but never say never I guess.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motor City Sonics View Post
    Don't want Drew. It just feels like he's a guy that is going to spend a lot of time on the DL - like his brother. Plus, I'd stay away from Upton. Why is Arizona so desperate to trade him if he's so great? There's something wrong there.

    I wish they could swing a deal for J.J. Hardy, but that is highly unlikely.
    Upton doesn't excite me either - at least not enough to be talking about Castellanos + to get him.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Los Gatos View Post
    I think any Tigers deal for Upton would have to start with Castellanos, and it would only have legs if AZ thinks he can handle 3B. Peralta for Putz and sign Drew seems more plausible, but never say never I guess.
    There's little doubt as to whether Castellanos can handle 3B. He was only moved to corner OF because of Cabrera...not because he couldn't handle 3B.

    Arizona really wants a 3B for the future. Buying low on Upton might be a legitimate steal.
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  9. #129
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    The only caution I see with Upton is his home/road splits, so I guess the Tigers would need to determine if that's due to Chase Field or simply to home comforts in general.

    With Castellanos at 3B, it seems to me he was still a work in progress defensively with some predictions that he'd end up in the OF even before the Cabrera move. Either way, if they're going to sell him as a 3B, now is the time because another full season removed from the position in '13 could lessen that appeal to other teams. But by the end of next season he could be off the trade table altogether anyway if he makes it up to Detroit and produces.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Los Gatos View Post
    Either way, if they're going to sell him as a 3B, now is the time because another full season removed from the position in '13 could lessen that appeal to other teams. But by the end of next season he could be off the trade table altogether anyway if he makes it up to Detroit and produces.
    I agree...that's why I want them to trade him now. I think his value is as high as ever.

    Castellanos' value as a corner OF is about as much as Upton, given a best case scenario. Except we need performance starting now. I'm not too concerned about Upton's home/road splits. The BOB is offense-friendly, but it can't skew people's numbers that much. I think sometimes hitters just focus better in front of a home crowd or when they're not jet-lagged.

    Upton is still young enough that it's quite possible we haven't even seen him at his peak performance. And he's already been an All-Star twice. His contract is very manageable for the next 3 years, too. And his defense is good.
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  11. #131
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    I sort of wonder if this is a "mind of Scott Boras" creation because the word is the Red Soxs and Yankees are interested in Drew but I wonder if Boras wants teams to pony up larger offers and quickly by saying out of the side of his mouth that the Tigers are interested in Drew also....
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  12. #132
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    I don't know if it has been mentioned, but apparently the DBacks are interested in Peralta as a third baseman.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    I sort of wonder if this is a "mind of Scott Boras" creation because the word is the Red Soxs and Yankees are interested in Drew but I wonder if Boras wants teams to pony up larger offers and quickly by saying out of the side of his mouth that the Tigers are interested in Drew also....
    Definitely a Boras creation. The Yankees have little reason to be interested in Drew. Jeter may not be ready for April, but he and Cano will have the MI locked up for the rest of the season. There's really no place for Drew to play. As for the Red Sox, they have some rebuilding to do before they start throwing money at free agents. You don't just blow up a team only to sign guys the next year. If I were DD, I wouldn't fall for this headfake.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    Definitely a Boras creation. The Yankees have little reason to be interested in Drew. Jeter may not be ready for April, but he and Cano will have the MI locked up for the rest of the season. There's really no place for Drew to play. As for the Red Sox, they have some rebuilding to do before they start throwing money at free agents. You don't just blow up a team only to sign guys the next year. If I were DD, I wouldn't fall for this headfake.

    I could see the Yankees wanting to move A-Rod to DH (or to the moon or the Marlins, but that's a different post...) and then having someone who could nail down 3B, but Drew is sort of an odd choice to do it with.

    The Red Sox do have some money to spend and certainly could use Drew for a few years, but that's the problem, think 1 year with a option for a second and/or third year is what they are thinking. If prospect Jose Iglesias is ready in the next year or two, why do they need Drew still around eating up payroll?

    I just smell a Scott Boras.....that's all......
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  15. #135
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    I was looking at some numbers and I thought it was interesting reviewing the career numbers of Delmon Young with Stephen Drew. I'm not trying to fight anyone over this, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share with the group.

    Delmon Young's 162 game career average;

    Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GDP
    162 Game Avg. 162 658 618 73 176 34 2 16 89 6 4 27 115 .284 .317 .425 .742 98 21


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/21/2012.

    Stephen Drew's 162 game career average;

    Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GDP
    162 Game Avg. 162 682 612 83 162 36 10 15 70 7 3 58 121 .265 .328 .433 .762 96 5


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/21/2012.

    lol, I'll conceed that Drew should be better with the golve than Delmon Young, especially at SS.....
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  16. #136
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    Geez. People sure have a hard on for Upton. He's nice but not the kind of player you empty your system for. I would do something like Peralta, Garcia, and the rights to Gustavo Nunez.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Geez. People sure have a hard on for Upton. He's nice but not the kind of player you empty your system for. I would do something like Peralta, Garcia, and the rights to Gustavo Nunez.
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  18. #138
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    If Delmon Young hit like he hit while playing solid SS defense, he wouldn't have been near as hated on.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Geez. People sure have a hard on for Upton. He's nice but not the kind of player you empty your system for. I would do something like Peralta, Garcia, and the rights to Gustavo Nunez.
    He is the 2005 #1 draft pick, and he's been an All Star twice at age 24. He's coming off a down season, but he's the kind of player that usually isn't available at all until he's a free agent.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    He is the 2005 #1 draft pick, and he's been an All Star twice at age 24. He's coming off a down season, but he's the kind of player that usually isn't available at all until he's a free agent.
    Delmon was the #1 overall pick in 2003, #2nd in ROY, and #10 in the 2010 MVP vote.

    This stuff is all fine and dandy, and Upton is a nice player. But the fact remains that he's not someone you empty your farm system for. What I outlined with Peralta, Garcia and Nunez is a reasonable package in my opinion. A starting SS (or 3B if they prefer), one of our top prospects who is virtually major league ready, and a SS prospect that they like enough to already have claimed (but who is unlikely to stick on a roster all 2013 after missing all 2012 and barely any time above A+). BA ranked Nunez as the #7 Tiger prospect in 2010.

    If Upton was such a monster and signed to a reasonable long term deal, then why would they even consider trading him? It's because he's a little over-rated and because there's some make-up questions. Reasons to hold firm, in my opinion.
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
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    No. I like good sod. They can grow their own.
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  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Delmon was the #1 overall pick in 2003, #2nd in ROY, and #10 in the 2010 MVP vote.

    This stuff is all fine and dandy, and Upton is a nice player. But the fact remains that he's not someone you empty your farm system for. What I outlined with Peralta, Garcia and Nunez is a reasonable package in my opinion. A starting SS (or 3B if they prefer), one of our top prospects who is virtually major league ready, and a SS prospect that they like enough to already have claimed (but who is unlikely to stick on a roster all 2013 after missing all 2012 and barely any time above A+). BA ranked Nunez as the #7 Tiger prospect in 2010.

    If Upton was such a monster and signed to a reasonable long term deal, then why would they even consider trading him? It's because he's a little over-rated and because there's some make-up questions. Reasons to hold firm, in my opinion.
    I agree with all of this. We can't sell the farm for Upton, he is a good player, but this shouldn't be a Cabrera type trade, where we traded our top two prospects.

  23. #143
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    Well if they turn out like Maybin and Miller.....

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Delmon was the #1 overall pick in 2003, #2nd in ROY, and #10 in the 2010 MVP vote.

    This stuff is all fine and dandy, and Upton is a nice player. But the fact remains that he's not someone you empty your farm system for. What I outlined with Peralta, Garcia and Nunez is a reasonable package in my opinion. A starting SS (or 3B if they prefer), one of our top prospects who is virtually major league ready, and a SS prospect that they like enough to already have claimed (but who is unlikely to stick on a roster all 2013 after missing all 2012 and barely any time above A+). BA ranked Nunez as the #7 Tiger prospect in 2010.

    If Upton was such a monster and signed to a reasonable long term deal, then why would they even consider trading him? It's because he's a little over-rated and because there's some make-up questions. Reasons to hold firm, in my opinion.
    Good overview of Upton, and completely reasonable. I'm in agreement with all this.

    As for Stephen Drew, I too am not sold on our committing years to him, despite Lee's stamp of approval. He's been hurt for much of the last two seasons, and it's a big assumption that he is over his injury and ready to give us 150 games of 3+ WAR ball each year through 2015. Because if he's not--if we relive his 2012 Groundhog Day for the next three years--the wailing and gnashing of teeth around here will be epic, possibly Delmon level.

    I am resigned to his being signed, though, so all I can do is cross my fingers and hope for the best.
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  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I agree with all of this. We can't sell the farm for Upton, he is a good player, but this shouldn't be a Cabrera type trade, where we traded our top two prospects.
    Our top two prospects now aren't nearly as well-regarded as Maybin and Miller.

    The fact that both later flopped is immaterial to their trade value at the time they had been traded.

    I'd rather trade only one of the two to get Upton. Or both to get Upton and Bauer. I prefer Castellanos. While he might turn out to be a decent corner OF, Garcia is already a plus OF, and one year younger. Both have similar offensive ceilings, IMO.
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  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Delmon was the #1 overall pick in 2003, #2nd in ROY, and #10 in the 2010 MVP vote.

    This stuff is all fine and dandy, and Upton is a nice player. But the fact remains that he's not someone you empty your farm system for. What I outlined with Peralta, Garcia and Nunez is a reasonable package in my opinion.
    I'm fine with your package, but I don't think that would get it done. Upton has already proven he's orders of magnitude better than Young, both on defense and offense. I think he is going to require Castellanos at the very least.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post

    As for Stephen Drew, I too am not sold on our committing years to him, despite Lee's stamp of approval.
    I'm not really that approving. My pessimism for Peralta exceeds my optimism for Drew.
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  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    I was looking at some numbers and I thought it was interesting reviewing the career numbers of Delmon Young with Stephen Drew. I'm not trying to fight anyone over this, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share with the group.

    Delmon Young's 162 game career average;

    Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GDP
    162 Game Avg. 162 658 618 73 176 34 2 16 89 6 4 27 115 .284 .317 .425 .742 98 21
    Stephen Drew's 162 game career average;
    Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GDP
    162 Game Avg. 162 682 612 83 162 36 10 15 70 7 3 58 121 .265 .328 .433 .762 96 5

    lol, I'll conceed that Drew should be better with the golve than Delmon Young, especially at SS.....
    Similarities there, sure... but first, as others have mentioned, we're talking about SS, not OF. More willing to give up offense for defense at that position. Second, looking at the numbers even as they are there Drew as double the walks as Young. Despite a lower AVG, his OBP is still higher. Part of the problem with Young was that he swung at way too much. He only walked once for every 24 times he came to the plate for heavens sake! Look too at his GDP. Now, part of that might be explained by having more people on base in front of him than Drew... but a large part is his slow motion running speed.

    Look, Young isn't as terrible as some people make him out to be I feel. I actually was in favor of keeping him and looked for him to have a break out year after a solid September with the Tigers last year. And a .284 AVG is nothing to complain about. BUT, that's not enough just by itself. And Delmon is quite sub-par in many other areas... His defense is suspect. His running speed is terrible. His plate discipline is awful. I can accept a player who is bad in one or even two areas if they excel enough in other areas for make up for it. Delmon is just average, or perhaps slightly above average, when hitting. And every other area of his game is sub-average.

    Now what about Drew? He's got even more strike outs than Delmon (though slightly more PA too). His walks are a lot more, but that's not saying much. Just about EVERYONE will have more walks that Young. I dunno enough about his defense or base speed to know if those make up for being a free swinging, but the mere fact that he's a SS who actually plays defensively rather than a corner OF who's pushed to DH whenever possible his a huge check plus for Drew.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    I was looking at some numbers and I thought it was interesting reviewing the career numbers of Delmon Young with Stephen Drew. I'm not trying to fight anyone over this, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share with the group.

    Delmon Young's 162 game career average;

    Stephen Drew's 162 game career average;

    lol, I'll conceed that Drew should be better with the golve than Delmon Young, especially at SS.....
    what these numbers show me is that Drew walks more, Ks the same, has more power (how pathetic is that), is an overall better offensive (by wOBA or OPS) and defensive player than Delmon, at a more important defensive position.

    the only concerns are the ankle and attitude.

    a simple way to look at a GM's job is this: improve a team by upgrading a position when possible (like 2b with Infante and RF with Hunter). Drew is a upgrade. Not a huge upgrade, but a clear upgrade.

  30. #150
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    I'm sort of on the fence with Drew as a potential Tiger. On one hand SS is sort of a premium position right now and not a lot of teams have great shotstops so being able to find a decent one and locking them up for 3-7 years might be a good thing. If Drew can heal up and do his career average with a good golve perhaps it will be just fine.

    On the other hand, my real concern is what other teams have been doing to Drew. Some of it can be related to teams being "small market" but to what degree I don't know. First, Arizona traded Drew last year to Oakland. Arizona (who's still looking for infield help right now...) had presumably seen enough of Drew and sent him packing, and Arizona's haul? Oakland's 17th round draft pick Sean Jamieson (with a 2 year -A and A line of .241 Avg. .353 OBP .363 SLG .715 OPS). Not quite a king's ransom.

    So then Drew was in Oakland and they got a good look at Drew too. Oakland liked Drew, but decided against Drew's $10M option and paid him a $1M buyout. My understanding is that Oakland would like to have Drew back, just not at $10M figure. Now Jon Heyman reports that the Yankees and Red Sox are interested in Drew too, but what they were interested in him for was very curious also.

    The Yankees were asking if Drew would take a "super sub" roll and help out around the infield. A curious request considering Drew has only played 792 games at SS and only one game as a DH in his 7 year career and not a single inning at a different position. The Red Sox too would like Drew, but only until shortstop prospect Jose Iglesias is ready (could be later this year, could be never...) but again, another team doesn't see Drew a longer term, shortstop of the future type player either. I just see a lot of red flags with Drew and I'm just not sold that Drew is the answer to the Tigers shortstop problems for the next few years, I guess we'll see what happens.
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  31. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I'm not really that approving. My pessimism for Peralta exceeds my optimism for Drew.
    This is my feeling. I hope we sign Drew and trade Peralta, but I'm not expecting a 2008 Drew.
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  32. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    I'm fine with your package
    Uhm......., maybe private message next time?

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    I hope any search for a SS beyond 2013 (or even starting in 2013) goes beyond Peralta and Drew. I can see the side of staying with Peralta for 2013 since he is under a reasonable contract. I can see the side of dealing him off for other help and signing Drew. Both have pros and cons. But it seems as though the focus lately is one or the other when there could be better alternatives out there. Not that any one of us are actually making the deals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    what these numbers show me is that Drew walks more, Ks the same, has more power .
    Yea, I've sort of been looking sideways at that too because I'm not really sure what to make of it.

    With Miguel Cabrera power (40 HR's) regarding his 40 doubles this year, I suspect a lot of those doubles were one hoppers at the warning track / splitting the gap sort of things. With Drew I'm trying to read the tea leaves a bit, but Drew really doesn't strike me as a power hitter. Drew highest home run total was 21 and that was in 2008. The wierd thing about Drew is that he gets a LOT of doubles (averaging 36 per year) and triples (10 per year) and he's averaging only 15 HR's per year.

    I did a bit of checking and Drew's doubles totals seem to say rather consistant between home and away;

    Doubles: (reasonably similar I think)
    1488 AB's at home: 89
    1581 AB's away: 92

    Home Runs: (similar too?!?)
    1488 AB's at home: 34
    1581 AB's away: 43

    Here's what I don't understand; Triples!
    1488 AB's at home: 41
    1581 AB's away: 11


    Or in other words, 41 of his 52 triples were hit in Chase Field!

    Don't get me wrong, a triple in Chase field that would be a double in Comerica Park is still pretty good, but I'm still trying to figure out how moving to a different ballpark might effect his game...
    “Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock.” -Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir View Post
    I hope any search for a SS beyond 2013 (or even starting in 2013) goes beyond Peralta and Drew. ...
    don't we trust that DD has done this and knows what players are reasonably available?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    don't we trust that DD has done this and knows what players are reasonably available?
    I am sure he keeps looking around. I am just saying it seems like there is a lot of Peralta or Drew talk. A little bit of Andrus mixed in. I am kind of resigned to Peralta as the 2013 SS. I hope that the SS in 2014 and beyond is not named Peralta or Drew, I hope it is someone of better quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir View Post
    I am sure he keeps looking around. I am just saying it seems like there is a lot of Peralta or Drew talk. A little bit of Andrus mixed in. I am kind of resigned to Peralta as the 2013 SS. I hope that the SS in 2014 and beyond is not named Peralta or Drew, I hope it is someone of better quality.
    I think the only reason we know about Drew is Boras leaked it to the press, including the BS that the Yankees and Red Sox are interested, because he is not getting the years or $ he wants from DD.

    There are about 100 guys who are going to be playing SS in the majors over the next 2 years. It is not unreasonable to think that Drew is probably in the top 10% of those players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    I think the only reason we know about Drew is Boras leaked it to the press, including the BS that the Yankees and Red Sox are interested, because he is not getting the years or $ he wants from DD.

    There are about 100 guys who are going to be playing SS in the majors over the next 2 years. It is not unreasonable to think that Drew is probably in the top 10% of those players.
    So, if there is 30 teams with 30 starting shortstops, Drew would be in the top 3 of those 30 shortstops right?

    Or as you put it, top ten of the next 100 guys playing SS in the next two years?

    (Sorry, RatkoVarda, I'm just grumpy today, I just wouldn't say it "is not unreasonable to think Drew will be a top 10% shortstop" no matter if it's in a group of 30 or 100 or 1,000)

    Some of the other guys like Elvis Andrus, Jose Reyes and Derek Jeter and some soon to be's like Jurickson Profar might disagree with Drew being anywhere near top 10% in the next two years.
    Last edited by STLTiger69; 11-21-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    don't we trust that DD has done this and knows what players are reasonably available?
    I'm not a DD hater, but at the same time, he is known for the easy, lazy move. He always goes with the familiar name, big dollar guy even if they are risky due to age, injury or salary commitment. I would never expect him to make a move for a Didi Gregorious or Zach Cozart, similar to how he didn't let Delmon walk in order to sign a guy like Dejesus or something along those lines last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'm not a DD hater, but at the same time, he is known for the easy, lazy move. He always goes with the familiar name, big dollar guy even if they are risky due to age, injury or salary commitment. I would never expect him to make a move for a Didi Gregorious or Zach Cozart, similar to how he didn't let Delmon walk in order to sign a guy like Dejesus or something along those lines last year.
    I'm just playing devils advocate here. Austin Jackson was not exactly a household name when the Tigers shipped out fan favorite Curtis Granderson. And I know everyone had Doug Fister as their #1 pitcher the Tigers should get in a deadline trade deal when some no-name Ubaldo Jimenez was available on the trade table also.

    I'll totally agree with you that Dombrowski is very comfortable in giving big money to big name players. But frankly Dombrowski has also shown the ability to think out of the box as needed from time to time.
    “Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock.” -Will Rogers

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