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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by benrush View Post
    Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!
    Where did these multiple reports come from? I have to question their validity. If the Tigers were going to fast-track him I don't think they would have left him in the MWL all year.

    To be ready by opening day 2014, they'll probably have to start him in Erie this year, or have him spend very little time in Lakeland. But leaving him in WM all year says a lot more than these reports do.
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  2. #42
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    I understand that teams would be reluctant to trade within their division. However, I read that the Indians are taking offers for their SS Cabrera. I plead that Dombrowski would get this deal done. Porcello, Castellanos, and somebody else for Cabrera. This guy is a gem and is only 26.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Where did these multiple reports come from? I have to question their validity. If the Tigers were going to fast-track him I don't think they would have left him in the MWL all year.

    To be ready by opening day 2014, they'll probably have to start him in Erie this year, or have him spend very little time in Lakeland. But leaving him in WM all year says a lot more than these reports do.
    When Suarez received a short time in Lakeland in 2011, he was fast if he got on base. But he was far from ready to play at that level and can not imagine anyone is claiming him to be ready by 2014.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastside billee View Post
    I understand that teams would be reluctant to trade within their division. However, I read that the Indians are taking offers for their SS Cabrera. I plead that Dombrowski would get this deal done. Porcello, Castellanos, and somebody else for Cabrera. This guy is a gem and is only 26.
    Well we traded for their last shortstop, so why not this one? I'd love to have him. I think you might be giving up too much though.

    eidt: I'm surprised Asdrubal has never posted an .800 OPS. Would not have guessed that. The last two years he's really flamed out in the 2nd half.
    Last edited by Yoda; 11-11-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Henning today makes a pitch for the tigs to trade Peralta and play Worth. I sure hope he is misinformed.

    OTOH, he also drops a note about the curveball possibly being Porcello's ticket to redemption. I wonder if that is just a Henning swag or if the Tigs actually have wanted him to throw it more.....?

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  6. #46
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    I think over the years that fielding% and the ability to make the routine play has almost become underrated, particularly with short stops. I think with all the errors that SS make nowadays that something needs to be said about a guy like Jhonny that doesn't make any. Sure he doesn't get to as many but if a relative high percentage of those balls that others get to they turn into errors anyway how much more valuable are they? I don't think it's any coincidence that Jhonny has scored well the past 2 seasons on UZR, and that is that there is alot of value to a guy that makes all the plays he should. So where in years past people would discount range and only look at fielding percentage when determining a fielder, I'm starting to get the impression that nowadays people discount FP and only look at range, which is an equally flawed way to look at things.

  7. #47
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    I can almost feel a threeway type deal that would send Jhonny to Oakland, pending Stephen Drew's status with Oak. As the As have expressed an interest in acquiring a offensive oriented SS. Coco Crisp to Cincy...whos been deemed expendable after acquiring Chris Young from Arizona recently giving Oak a sick OF quartet of CY, Cespedes, SSmith and Reddick. Gregorio or Cozart flipped to Detroit.
    But all in all the likelyhood of predicting a three team trade is about as pointless as denying the reality that Jhonny Peralta will be the Tigers starting SS in 2013, and will continue to recieve a vast majority of fan backlash for appalling defense.
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  8. #48
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    I imagine Oakland would want the Cincy SS Over Peralta and Cincy would need more than Crisp for one of those guys.

    Fwiw, I don't think Cabrera is any sort of significant upgrade from Peralta

  9. #49
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    I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.
    I am on board with this to some degree. I would love better defense but his offense, even while not good, is pretty good for a shortstop.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.
    Well said. He's not elite, but he's in the 10-15 range of the SS group. Improving would be tough, as most guys ahead of him aren't too available.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.
    I'd be willing to take that chance for improved defense. The lost offense should already be replaced with Martinez taking over at DH.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I'd be willing to take that chance for improved defense. The lost offense should already be replaced with Martinez taking over at DH.
    I was going to say yes, but the lineup would be less deep, but then I remembered that Delmon Young was the DH, and even a banjo hitting shortstop could provide that level of offense, albeit in a different way, ie higher obp, lower slg, and better baserunning.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    I was going to say yes, but the lineup would be less deep, but then I remembered that Delmon Young was the DH, and even a banjo hitting shortstop could provide that level of offense, albeit in a different way, ie higher obp, lower slg, and better baserunning.
    Dombrowski should be able to improve line-up depth by adding a decent corner OF. Maybe Illitch will buy him one.
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I'd be willing to take that chance for improved defense. The lost offense should already be replaced with Martinez taking over at DH.
    We need that upgrade without losing Peralta though. Not to mention that the complaints about Peralta's D are extremely overstated. There is no way you offset the drop in offense with an upgrade on defense without getting an Andrus caliber SS.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    We need that upgrade without losing Peralta though. Not to mention that the complaints about Peralta's D are extremely overstated. There is no way you offset the drop in offense with an upgrade on defense without getting an Andrus caliber SS.
    They should also be able to find an offensive upgrade for corner outfield as well. If DD can't find somebody better than Boesch/Berry, I don't know what to say. Peralta looked like he dropped off defensively last year and I think he'll drop further next year. I understand there aren't a lot of options at shortstop and realistically he'll be back. However, if they do find a defensive shortstop to replace him, I am not going to miss Peralta.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by benrush View Post
    Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!
    As much as I want to stand up for my AAT, I simply don't believe this. Suarez has been a pleasant surprise so far, but in no way do I think he will be ready in 2014. I still think he's a long-shot to even make the majors at all. But he does have some promise.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    They should also be able to find an offensive upgrade for corner outfield as well. If DD can't find somebody better than Boesch/Berry, I don't know what to say. Peralta looked like he dropped off defensively last year and I think he'll drop further next year. I understand there aren't a lot of options at shortstop and realistically he'll be back. However, if they do find a defensive shortstop to replace him, I am not going to miss Peralta.
    Like I said, I think the concerns about Peralta's D are overstated. I think he's been quite good the last few years. He really showed off his glove in the playoffs too. I mean, it all depends who the defensive SS is in the end. How many guys are upgrades that we an acquire and also belong in a starting lineup for a contender? Is Brendan Ryan good enough? He of the sub 600 OPS, but the best SS glove in baseball?

  19. #59
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    I know the guy had a terrible season last year based off of his career numbers. I also know he has a big mouth and popped off making a slur towards homosexuals this past season. However, I still believe that Yunel Escobar is worth taking a peak at if your Dombrowski.
    Who knew after all these years Joe Dumars was really playing a dual role as both himself and his alter-ego Ken Holland.

  20. #60
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    Peralta was nonexistent on the offensive side and slow afoot ALL year.
    No range at all. He came up time after time after time on the offense and zero to show for it in fact I would call him a rallykiller.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Like I said, I think the concerns about Peralta's D are overstated. I think he's been quite good the last few years. He really showed off his glove in the playoffs too. I mean, it all depends who the defensive SS is in the end. How many guys are upgrades that we an acquire and also belong in a starting lineup for a contender? Is Brendan Ryan good enough? He of the sub 600 OPS, but the best SS glove in baseball?
    Peralta is steady, but I think his range is very bad and he was soft tossing so much last year, I thought he was injured. I don't think he was horrible, but I think he was a bit below average overall for the season. I would take Hardy or Yunel Escobar over Peralta. Both could be available but I don't know at what price. Ryan might be too weak of a hitter, although I don't think you can just add and subtract runs with defense the same way you can with offense. I believe an elite defender can affect a pitching staff in ways that go beyond plays made. What I mean by that is that pitchers and defense work together, so a strong defense can possibly change the way a pitcher pitches. At the very least, it will help lower his pitch count. It's just a theory I have. I probably value defense more than most do here.
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  22. #62
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    There really isn't a quick fix for Peralta, it's just that simple and the Tigers are not going to go get somone who is as good or marginally better than Peralta for 2013.


    Let's look at some options;


    Speaking of "rally killing", here is Brendan Ryan's numbers, see anything you like there?

    Year Age Tm Lg G PA R H HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
    2012 30 SEA AL 141 470 42 79 3 31 11 5 44 98 .194 .277 .278 .555 61
    162 Game Avg. 162 548 62 119 4 39 15 5 40 84 .244 .306 .327 .633 75


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/11/2012.

    If you need something to compare Ryan with offensively, here'a Brandon Inge's numbers.

    Year Age Tm Lg G PA R H HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
    2012 35 TOT AL 83 331 33 66 12 54 0 1 24 91 .218 .275 .383 .658 81
    162 Game Avg. 162 602 61 125 17 70 5 4 48 139 .234 .303 .387 .690 83


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/11/2012.



    How about Yunel Escobar?

    Frankly, I'd take the "great" year of Peralta OR Escobar assuming the other was going to have a "bad" year...


    I've reprinted his numbers for his full seasons because he sort of defines what Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde means. Do you like the Escobar who finished 6th in ROY voting for 2007 and finished with a OPS of .837 or the 2012 version of Escobar that finished with a .655 OPS? Peralta averages 18 HR's and 82 RBI's to Escobar's 11 Hr's and 62 RBI's. And also if your curious, Peralta ground into 18 double plays for 2012 (531 AB's) and Escobar ground into 21 double plays in 558 AB's, which I'm sure it's because Escobar hit behind runners slower than Cabrera, Fielder, Young and Avila.


    Year Tm Lg G PA R H HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
    2007 ATL NL 94 355 54 104 5 28 5 3 27 44 .326 .385 .451 .837 118
    2008 ATL NL 136 587 71 148 10 60 2 5 59 62 .288 .366 .401 .766 103
    2009 ATL NL 141 604 89 158 14 76 5 4 57 62 .299 .377 .436 .812 115
    2010 TOT MLB 135 567 60 127 4 35 6 2 56 57 .256 .337 .318 .655 80
    2011 TOR AL 133 590 77 149 11 48 3 3 61 70 .290 .369 .413 .782 112
    2012 TOR AL 145 608 58 141 9 51 5 1 35 70 .253 .300 .344 .644 75
    162 Game Avg. 162 684 85 171 11 62 5 4 61 75 .282 .353 .390 .743 99


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/11/2012.



    Jhonny Peralta career numbers, see what you think....


    Year Age Tm Lg G AB R H HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
    2003 21 CLE AL 77 242 24 55 4 21 1 3 20 65 .227 .295 .326 .621
    2004 22 CLE AL 8 25 2 6 0 2 0 1 3 6 .240 .321 .280 .601
    2005 23 CLE AL 141 504 82 147 24 78 0 2 58 128 .292 .366 .520 .885
    2006 24 CLE AL 149 569 84 146 13 68 0 1 56 152 .257 .323 .385 .708
    2007 25 CLE AL 152 574 87 155 21 72 4 4 61 146 .270 .341 .430 .771
    2008 26 CLE AL 154 605 104 167 23 89 3 1 48 126 .276 .331 .473 .804
    2009 27 CLE AL 151 582 57 148 11 83 0 2 51 134 .254 .316 .375 .690
    2010 28 TOT AL 148 551 60 137 15 81 1 0 53 103 .249 .311 .392 .703
    2011 29 DET AL 146 525 68 157 21 86 0 2 40 95 .299 .345 .478 .824
    2012 30 DET AL 150 531 58 127 13 63 1 2 49 105 .239 .305 .384 .689
    162 Game Avg. 162 598 79 158 18 82 1 2 56 135 .264 .327 .422 .750


    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 11/11/2012.
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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Mitchell View Post
    Peralta was nonexistent on the offensive side and slow afoot ALL year.
    No range at all. He came up time after time after time on the offense and zero to show for it in fact I would call him a rallykiller.
    This is how I think of him, but I guess ive accepted that the Tigers will not address the position for right now.

  24. #64
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    When you compare Escobar to Peralta defensively though doesn't that elevate him quite a bit?
    Who knew after all these years Joe Dumars was really playing a dual role as both himself and his alter-ego Ken Holland.

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TaterSalad View Post
    When you compare Escobar to Peralta defensively though doesn't that elevate him quite a bit?


    When you compare Brendan Ryan to Escobar defensively though doesn't that elevate Ryan quite a bit too?

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  26. #66
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    Some more food for thought;

    Peralta had a down year with the bat for 2012, no question. Peralta had "only" 63 RBI's for 2012 which is down from 86 RBI's for 2011.

    In terms of team RBI's Peralta was 5th THIS YEAR in Tigers RBI's, ahead of him was:

    Cabrera (139)
    Fielder (108)
    Young (74)
    Jackson (66)
    Peralta (63)

    Here's another thing to think of. The Seattle Mariners were pretty bad at scoring runs in 2012. If Peralta and his 63 RBI's were on the Mariners team for 2012, Peralta would have been second best in RBI's for the ENTIRE Mariners team with only Kyle Seager with 86 RBI's ahead of Peralta.
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  27. #67
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    Are there any stats on how addition of Infante helped the Tigers' defensively? I'd want to know those before making any moves. Peralta is signed, so you don't have to give away the farm. There's no way I'm including Castellanos in a deal.
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  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    Using RBI like that to defend a player makes baby Jesus cry.

    Stop that.
    He was 7th in OBI% = (RBI - hr)/runners on base.

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  30. #70
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    Basically Boesch and four other guys with half as many PA were worse than he on the Tigers. Boesch had 500 PA for the Tigers this year. Yikes!

    In any event, my point really was that using RBI in such a manner is a really poor argument rather than Jhonny being good or bad. There are any number of better ways to evaluate a player's offensive contributions than the way presented.

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    WOW! Q led the Tigers in scoring runners at 3B percentage (R3BI%)!

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    Trading Peralta would be a very dumb move on the tigers part, his value right now is at it's lowest since they traded for him initially. And when you add in the luck factor to his 2012 season, you can see where Jhonny realy fell off, he's only had 2 seasons in his career with a BABIP under .300 2010 and 2012 (.275 this year) his career BABIP is .310 which this season would have meant 15 more hits and a .267 batting average and a .700+ OPS. All numbers that with his defensive ability would have been more than acceptable. His BABIP with RISP was .255 and if he gets his career number it's an extra 6 hits and 9 rbi. If Jhonny had a .267-14-72 line with his D, nobody would be talking about trading him. Which shortstop that we trade for is going to even have that line as a best case scenario? None. But there's a chance Jhonny hits .250-20-70 and we'll take that all the way to the playoffs again
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    The Rangers don't want to trade either Andrus or Profar to get Justin Upton. They tried to get Simmons from Atlanta and spin him to Arizona in a package for Upton. It seems to me that the Tigers don't have any reasonable package to interest the Rangers and aquire Andrus.
    Last edited by RatkoVarda; 11-12-2012 at 11:17 AM.

  34. #74
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    I'm going to keep beating this drum. Only Scherzer gets us Andrus.

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'm going to keep beating this drum. Only Scherzer gets us Andrus.
    Rangers need to move him. And I think you're highly overrating Andrus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Rangers need to move him. And I think you're highly overrating Andrus.
    From all the stories it seems like the Rangers still don't want to move him. And instead would have Profar and Andrus in the INF right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Rangers need to move him. And I think you're highly overrating Andrus.
    For one, they do not need to move him. They'll move Kinsler to the OF if necessary. For 2, I don't think I"m underrating a 4+ win 24 year old SS who makes 10 mil combined the next 2 years at all. That's about the rarest commodity in the game. I think if anything you are probably overrating Scherzer. They are pretty similar value with similar contracts. I worry more about Scherzer sustaining his performance than Andrus though, who should improve if anything.

    If they won't flip him for Upton, I can't imagine they will flip him for less than Scherzer. Would you if he was our SS???

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    Upton is coming off a horrible season, Scherzer is not. There is a lot of room between the two.

    Would I trade a SS with a 90 OPS+ for a potential #1/2 starting pitcher? Uh yeah!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Upton is coming off a horrible season, Scherzer is not. There is a lot of room between the two.

    Would I trade a SS with a 90 OPS+ for a potential #1/2 starting pitcher? Uh yeah!!
    There's some room between them, but not that much. Definitely not enough for me to be drastically overrating anyone that's for sure. I can find a high end SP easier than a SS like Andrus IMO. Plus I don't know if I'm getting a #1/2 caliber SP for sure in Scherzer. If we were talking Verlander, sure, I pass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Peralta is steady, but I think his range is very bad and he was soft tossing so much last year, I thought he was injured. I don't think he was horrible, but I think he was a bit below average overall for the season. I would take Hardy or Yunel Escobar over Peralta. Both could be available but I don't know at what price. Ryan might be too weak of a hitter, although I don't think you can just add and subtract runs with defense the same way you can with offense. I believe an elite defender can affect a pitching staff in ways that go beyond plays made. What I mean by that is that pitchers and defense work together, so a strong defense can possibly change the way a pitcher pitches. At the very least, it will help lower his pitch count. It's just a theory I have. I probably value defense more than most do here.
    I think Peralta's decent enough defensively, my real problem with him is that he's a slow guy who hits a lot of groundballs offensively. I don't think his normal offense would be hard to replace, but we need to upgrade to a clearly plus defender to make it worthwhile. The Hardy/Andrus/Escobar examples make sense.
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