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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    I agree exactly with the analysis to this point, but I am less sanguine about bringing him back just because I think the older he gets, the more rigid he may become and the more the flaws become even more dominant. But you never know, maybe after this season he will break the other way. I'll be happy to be wrong about him.
    I don't think he can become any more rigid than he is now. He solidified his tactical approach a couple of decades ago.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    Who was Leyland supposed to play?
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    Kobernoooooous

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    Might have something to do with making the World Series.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    I don't think you'll find too many people who claim the Tigers built a dream roster in 2012. It was certainly a roster that had some holes. Most teams have some holes. You just hope they don't get too exploited. If you look at the top AL teams, all of them had roster flaws. The Yankees were using all kinds of retreads in the play-offs. So I'm not sure that should cost DD his job. But I'd certainly like him to be more aggressive this winter at trying to find some low cost solutions to our corner OF spots, bullpen, and bench. Not bringing back Young and Valverde (and sounds like Raburn) is certainly a start. So is having Infante for a full season. If we re-sign Sanchez, we are already well on our way to a good looking roster -- even if it is a little pitching heavy (which I have no problem with).
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    Might have something to do with making the World Series.
    lol, seriously.

    world series champs or bust. after winning 88 games.
    go get em' tigers!

  6. #86
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    This is per the free press as well. If you're Illitch how else are you supposed to view these guys but keepers?

    Dombrowski and Leyland are due to address the media in separate news conferences this afternoon at Comerica Park. As they now head into their eighth season of partnership, one fact is clear: They have presided over the best-attended and most consistently exciting era in Tigers history. This year, for the third time with Leyland as manager, the Tigers drew 3 million fans. Before the came to town, they never had attained that zenith.
    Giving Leyland credit for 3 million fans is a bit much. However these two working together have built teams that draw. Illitch has got to like that.

  7. #87
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    Awesome! So glad we can all complain about his stupid lineups and his bad in game decisions next season. WOOOHOOO!
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  8. #88
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    "If you want to manage a baseball team, where could you go that's better than here?"- Jim Leyland

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    "If you want to manage a baseball team, where could you go that's better than here?"- Jim Leyland
    The easy two are San Francisco and St Louis.
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    In the context of Major league Baseball, Leyland, McClendon and Lamont are very good at their jobs. The only ones that don't think so are fans with limited knowledge and no credentials. Fans are happy if you win, and *****, whine and second guess when you don't. Doesn't matter who you are. They must have someone to blame.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    catastrophic? They ****ing made it the World Series. In what universe is that "catastrophic"?
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    This is per the free press as well. If you're Illitch how else are you supposed to view these guys but keepers?



    Giving Leyland credit for 3 million fans is a bit much. However these two working together have built teams that draw. Illitch has got to like that.
    That's great, but I'd imagine there's some correlation between our record, the attendance, and our increased payroll in recent times.
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  13. #93
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  14. #94
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    I'm OK with this. I can't think of any more suitable candidates, except maybe Carrie Matheson from Homeland.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    Give Jim an above average #2 hitter and an above average #5 hitter and the Tigers will be back in the World Series next year. The #5 hitter is solved provided Victor comes back healthy. The above average #2 hitter is gonna have to come from outside the organization........This spot has been a black hole since Placido left. Perhaps Infante could fill the role fulltime if Leyland would leave just him there.
    I don't think an above average corner OF or DH is needed. Average would be a HUGE improvement over Young/Berry.

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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    Dude, LOTS of things were Leyland's fault. Heck, at my job, LOTS of things are my fault.

    In both cases, I think the good has largely outweighed the bad, and they haven't yet decided to pull the trigger. :)

    Wait, are we still talking about Leyland? hahahah.

    So, regarding Leyland, I think it's just hard to convincingly argue that with a team with as many flaws as the Tigers, the manager should be fired after making the WS.

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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
    I don't think he can become any more rigid than he is now. He "encrusted in cement" his tactical approach a couple of decades ago.
    There, I fixed it for you. :)
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  18. #98
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    I don't think it matters that much because I believe the Tigers will easily be AL Central division winners with or without Leyland in 2013, even if they repeat this year's record, with the White Sox falling back a bit. and none of Cleveland, Minnesota or KC being able to surge upwards. So is there an obvious candidate who could do a better job than Leyland at taking the team from the final 8 through the 3 rounds to being World Series champion? I'm not sure. Maybe the Tigers should have signed Leyland to a 51-week contract then gone out and found a mangerial closer, ha.

  19. #99
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    I'm glad Leyland is back. He deserved to make the call if he wanted to come back. Now I won't lie, I am a Leyland homer. He makes me proud as someone from Perrysburg, I respect his loyalty, and I love the old school philosophy he brings. That old school type of mind is something that isn't around much anymore, and to me it's one of the things that has made baseball so special.

    Hate him or not, he does handle the clubhouse well and his team seems to respect him. Two very underrated characteristics of a quality manager.

  20. #100
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    Doesn't matter much either way considering who the alternatives are. I'm guessing Lamont is being taken off 3B coach duties to focus on being the bench manager. Assuming Brookens or whoever is a competent 3B coach, then that will be a positive change.
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  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamakzie View Post
    Awesome! So glad we can all complain about his stupid lineups and his bad in game decisions next season. WOOOHOOO!
    If he had a complete roster to work with -- i.e., bench players who are more than just AAAA talents, and an everyday lineup with no obvious soft spots -- we wouldn't have much cause for complaints. With that (hypothetical) better balanced roster, I have no doubt that Leyland would use it successfully. He is not lacking in baseball savvy.

    But -- just to restate the obvious -- he is not likely to have that complete roster, when so much payroll is invested in a small handful of players. Honestly, I don't see how the problem can be sensibly addressed without considering trading one of the superstars. Might actually happen, too, though I doubt it.
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  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    Who was Leyland supposed to play?
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  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    catastrophic? They ****ing made it the World Series. In what universe is that "catastrophic"?
    Is there a 'sabr universe'?
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  24. #104
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    I'm not pro Leyland in any way and I wouldn't care either way if he was brought back or not because he has plenty of flaws but I can see how he was brought back and I understand it. With that said there are many reasons to be critical of Jim. One of my biggest gripes is his lineup construction and lack of change to it.

    Admittedly I know they say lineup construction isn't that big of deal and isnt that important and that Leyland's hands were tied due to how horrible most of his options were but that doesn't mean he couldn't try other things. We've watched this offense struggle all year to score runs(especially when you factor in expectations) and Jim just kept sending out almost the exact same lineup every game, did he ever try to put the .800+ OPS Dirks in the 2nd slot or 5th slot when those 2 slots were struggling? Or did he ever think to move up a high OBP Avila in the 2 slot to give Cabby and Fielder more guys on to hit with? Did he ever think to possibly switching Cabrera and Fielder since Fielder was getting on at a higher clip but Cabby was hitting for more power, maybe that would've produced more runs? Did he try to get more aggressive and run Jackson,Infante or Berry more? No, he didn't do any of these things. Of course I'm not saying that any of these things would've made a difference but you struggled to score runs all year, you would think you would atleast try and see if potentially switching things around would provide a spark. Instead you just keep running the same guys out in the same spots because "that's where they are comfortable".

    Also his whole l/r platoon fetish is so outdated. He needs to realize that just because a righty is on the mound he doesn't have to bat an inferior lefty or vice versa. Some pitchers actually perform better against opposite handed hitters because of great changeups but Jim pays no attention to that.

    But like I said, despite his flaws it's hard to let go a guy that just took you to a World Series so I'm not saying he should be fired just pointing out some of the major issues I have with him.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Is there a 'sabr universe'?
    Yeah, we all know only sabers are ever completely irrational.
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  26. #106
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    I'm indifferent. More annoyed with the idea that Lloyd is still around
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  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamakzie View Post
    Awesome! So glad we can all complain about his stupid lineups and his bad in game decisions next season. WOOOHOOO!
    And there's a good chance that you'll get a chance to complain about it through at least one round of the playoffs -- and if history is any guide, if they make it to the postseason, in the ALCS too.

    I'll take that deal over Mystery Manager.
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  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    I'll take that deal over Mystery Manager.
    Because there's no way Mystery Manager could do the same thing or even better.
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  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    That's great, but I'd imagine there's some correlation between our record, the attendance, and our increased payroll in recent times.
    Sure. However, people have had huge payrolls and busted too.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    catastrophic? They ****ing made it the World Series. In what universe is that "catastrophic"?
    They won 88 games in the AL Central and got swept in the World Series despite spending something like 135 million dollars, in large part because of easily foreseeable (by many people on this board) mistakes in key spots. If it's not a GM's job to get the easy stuff done why does he exist? To give a contract to Prince Fielder? Well oh boy, what a tough call that was. Good job Dave.

    If you want to judge the season on 9 good games and ignore the 166 that went overall pretty poorly given the investment that's fine. Winning in the playoffs is what counts. I don't think that's a good way to judge a manager or GM though.
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  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Because there's no way Mystery Manager could do the same thing or even better.
    The grass is always greener...

    This always reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Peter and Lois attend a presentation for a time share and everyone who attend gets a ski boat. At the end the guy offset Peter the come between the boat and a mystery box. Peter picks the box because, as he explains to Lois, "it could be anything, it could even be a boat."
    Last edited by sagnam; 10-30-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagnam View Post
    The grass is always greener...

    This always reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Peter and Lois attend a presentation for a time share and everyone who attend gets a ski boat. At the end the guy offset Peter the come between the boat and a mystery box. Peter picks the box because, as he explains to Lois, "it could be anything, it could even be a boat."
    When did I say the grass is greener? I'm merely pointing out that a new manager doesn't guarantee they don't make the playoffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    They won 88 games in the AL Central and got swept in the World Series despite spending something like 135 million dollars, in large part because of easily foreseeable (by many people on this board) mistakes in key spots. If it's not a GM's job to get the easy stuff done why does he exist? To give a contract to Prince Fielder? Well oh boy, what a tough call that was. Good job Dave.

    If you want to judge the season on 9 good games and ignore the 166 that went overall pretty poorly given the investment that's fine. Winning in the playoffs is what counts. I don't think that's a good way to judge a manager or GM though.
    I agree they were lucky pennant winners and not as successful as that implies, but catastrophic is not the right word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    Do other teams' message boards display such irrational hate for their successful coaching staffs? I've read a bunch of other boards, but I never see nearly as much criticism of the coaches as I do here. And most teams are worse than us. Must be a Detroit thing or something.
    I think so. I've read it on Minnesota and LAA boards and both of those managers are revered by other franchises. Boston ripped Francona a lot too even before the final disaster year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagnam View Post
    The grass is always greener...

    This always reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Peter and Lois attend a presentation for a time share and everyone who attend gets a ski boat. At the end the guy offset Peter the come between the boat and a mystery box. Peter picks the box because, as he explains to Lois, "it could be anything, it could even be a boat."
    Nice

  36. #116
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    I view going into a season where you're a world series favorite with Brennan Boesch and Delmon Young as your starting corner outfielders to be pretty catastrophic. It's certainly not catastrophic like the Randy Smith years and I'm not suggesting it is.

    Honestly, it upsets me more, in the old days the Tigers didn't spend money and they made horrible decisions. You knew they were stupid, and you knew they were going to lose. Dombrowski isn't stupid, he's made a lot of very shrewd moves, they spend lots of money, they win games. So why do they make some of the most obvious and foolish mistakes? It's a lot harder to comprehend than when we watched Matt Millen or Randy Smith or current Joe Dumars do crazy things
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Well here's my counterpoint: If you honestly believe that Delmon Young was the best option to DH and bat fifth the entire season, that Brennan Boesch was the best option in RF for most of the season, that Quentin Berry was the best option in LF for most of the season, that Don Kelly should have batted in the world series, that Jose Valverde should have pitched in NYS etc etc

    Why isn't Dave Dombrowski being fired? If none of it was Leyland's fault, if he honestly had no other options, that's a catastrophic failure by the GM
    Dombrowski desereves some criticism, but only to a certain degree. Even the guys like Boesch that people here never loved, you'd have thought they did better than this. Santiago,Raburn and arguably even Inge too. However, he put together a near perfect pitchign staff, putting together a near perfect lineup too is asking quite a bit. I don't mind the standard, but you have to have some perspective.

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    Default Dombrowski and depth...

    It seems to me that the role players and depth guys that played on the 2012 team are about as competent as any other team's role players. The difference is that we have them under the microscope. These types of players are flawed by nature. Dombrowski's worst offense, in terms of roster depth, was the fact that he didn't foresee Young, Raburn, Inge, Boesch, Santiago, Worth, and Kelly combining to contribute less than nothing in terms of wins above replacement. Boesch was poised to take advantage of the big boys being on base, Inge and Raburn were looking like an okay bet to combine into an offensively effective second baseman, and everyone else was just going to be expected to do what they could do.

    If the bench players had produced the way they should have produced... Well, I'm guessing that we would have won closer to 95 games and had more options in the World Series.
    I love the Detroit Tigers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    Hating a "successful" manager is pretty common because almost every manager makes mind boggling and factually incorrect decisions on a regular basis.
    And the decisions geniuses like you would make wouldn't boggle anyone's mind and would be "factually correct"? The thing is, managerial decisions aren't a matter of fact. They're a matter of opinion. So there's no "factually correct" way to manage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikesglaring View Post
    By this logic, I guess we can blame him completely for Jackson's 2011 season too.

    Sorry, the fact that they need an "Assistant Hitting Coach" is further proof that McClendon has no business being a MLB hitting coach. If Jim had half of a brain, he would just name Lloyd his bench coach & hire someone qualified to be a hitting coach.
    No, because 2011 was mostly due to Jackson's bad habits he had before he came to the Tigers (leg kick, long swing, etc.).

    Maybe they just hired an assistant hitting coach so that each one could focus more in-depth on certain players. Players might not get this attention when there are 13 hitters and only one coach. There's only so much time in the day during the regular season, and a lot of that is spend on travel.
    Distribution of wealth is not in any way democratic. It is, in fact, tyrannical, in that a very select few own almost all of it, while most have little to no access. To have a country that prioritizes wealth over individual rights is the antithesis of democracy.

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