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  1. #41
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    If he wanted back, I would've kept him. He did, so I guess that means I would've kept him.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I would have been OK if they got a new manager, but I am happy he is back. I don't like some of his on-field decisions, but he seems to be very good at the off-field managing which is what matters most in baseball. I disliked it when some suggested he was a senile old man who had lost the team.
    How is it not an act of senility to continue to plug players into positions where it has been proven over and over that they will fail? Maybe senile isn't the proper word but "stubborn" and "spiteful" certainly are appropriate.
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  3. #43
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    All of coaches are back as well, including Toby Harrah as "assistant batting coach".

    Do we need a "assistant 3b coach" who can back up Lamont in the box and override him??
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  4. #44
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    I spent this entire season thinking that despite our struggle to win the division, that Leyland would somehow pull off something amazing because of some conspiracy of luck, karma, whatever.

    Now, they got to the top of the mountain and fell off. I feel like he has unfinished business and a young talented team. Reload. Get some more guns, lets go again. Next season's mission will be to traumatize the fanbases in Cleveland, Chicago, KC and Minnesota much earlier and then finish strong and win the entire thing.
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  5. #45
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    I'm fine with having Jim back. He seems to make a lot of goofy decisions but I am certain that if we payed as much attention to any other team, we'd second guess that manager just as much as we second guess Jim. The players love him and he understands that he is not the show, and I think those are the most important traits for a big league manager these days.

    As for the rest of the staff, well... I'd be fine if Lloyd and Gene were eaten by wolves at this point.
    I love the Detroit Tigers.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem View Post
    How is it not an act of senility to continue to plug players into positions where it has been proven over and over that they will fail? Maybe senile isn't the proper word but "stubborn" and "spiteful" certainly are appropriate.
    Perhaps it's because the alternatives will fall too.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagnam View Post
    That's unfair. You cut out the part where he explained what he meant by that.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagnam View Post
    Perhaps it's because the alternatives will fall too.
    A bit presumptuous here. When you bring in a "closer" and it's obvious 2 batters in that he has nothing, you bring another pitcher in. You also have someone else ready to go if you know he's probably going to have issues, as Leyland finally figured out against NY. There were other relievers that I know would have been better in that situation.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    A bit presumptuous here. When you bring in a "closer" and it's obvious 2 batters in that he has nothing, you bring another pitcher in. You also have someone else ready to go if you know he's probably going to have issues, as Leyland finally figured out against NY. There were other relievers that I know would have been better in that situation.
    Indeed. Delmon in the 5th hole during the regular season, Boesch continuing to get ABs when the writing was already permanently etched in the wall etc...

    The only time that Leyland has managed with any sense of urgency (as I recall) was when his first contract was about to expire and then during the 2012 ALCS.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalTigers View Post
    I think when you have 3 bonafide superstars on the team that vouch for him and respect him during the prime of their careers, then you've got something special.
    Do you think that if they were critical of him that they'd do it in the media? They saw how well that worked for Higginson and Inge.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    I spent this entire season thinking that despite our struggle to win the division, that Leyland would somehow pull off something amazing because of some conspiracy of luck, karma, whatever.

    Now, they got to the top of the mountain and fell off. I feel like he has unfinished business and a young talented team. Reload. Get some more guns, lets go again. Next season's mission will be to traumatize the fanbases in Cleveland, Chicago, KC and Minnesota much earlier and then finish strong and win the entire thing.
    I like this guy......

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkballer View Post
    I'm fine with having Jim back. He seems to make a lot of goofy decisions but I am certain that if we payed as much attention to any other team, we'd second guess that manager just as much as we second guess Jim. The players love him and he understands that he is not the show, and I think those are the most important traits for a big league manager these days.

    As for the rest of the staff, well... I'd be fine if Lloyd and Gene were eaten by wolves at this point.
    God, this times 10000.....minus the wolves thing.
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  13. #53
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    way to ruin a perfectly good tuesday.
    Put me on record. Prince Fielder will still OPS 850+ in years 7-8-9 of this contract. (sucks that my signature has to stay this for 7 years now)

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    Not watching a single game. **** this.

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    A managerial search is an unneeded distraction for the organization. Leyland isn't the best, but certainly not the worst. We're a few tweaks from being in the pole position for the division, if not the AL, in 2013. No reason to upset the apple cart at this point in time.
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  16. #56
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    Who was Leyland supposed to play?
    .

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    Who was Leyland supposed to play?
    DANNY WORTH! RAMON SANTIAGO! ANYONE ELSE!!!!!!! ARRRRGHHH!
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  18. #58
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    You have to admit, it keeps the summer's interesting to say the least. I'm happy for him and @fakejimleyland on twitter. Except, FakeJim would probably be a riot if and when Leyland leaves, saying stuff like if you would have kept me.. this S..t wouldn't be happening..
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    McClendon basically single-handedly turned Austin Jackson into an All-Star this offseason. I believe he had a hand in Peralta's near career-year last year, too, although he did fall back to earth.

    Who on this team hit worse than they were projected to hit? Avila and Peralta were widely expected to come back to earth, and everyone else did as good as or better than expected.
    By this logic, I guess we can blame him completely for Jackson's 2011 season too.

    Sorry, the fact that they need an "Assistant Hitting Coach" is further proof that McClendon has no business being a MLB hitting coach. If Jim had half of a brain, he would just name Lloyd his bench coach & hire someone qualified to be a hitting coach.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikesglaring View Post
    By this logic, I guess we can blame him completely for Jackson's 2011 season too.

    Sorry, the fact that they need an "Assistant Hitting Coach" is further proof that McClendon has no business being a MLB hitting coach. If Jim had half of a brain, he would just name Lloyd his bench coach & hire someone qualified to be a hitting coach.
    I'm not exactly sure what a hitting coach's responsibilities are so I don't have an opinion on McClendon one way or the other, but having two hitting coaches is becoming more popular among teams. It's not necessarily a sign of failure by McClendon.

    I believe both JL and Rod have said it's helpful to have a left and a right handed hitting instructor on staff.
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  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    Who was Leyland supposed to play?
    Someone who didn't flail at every pitch could be put in the 5th spot for instance. Running out a lineup hoping that someone will run into one is the ideology of a fool.

    Again, thank goodness the White Sox fell off the table in September. Leyland needs to go to their clubhouse and thank all of them too.
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkballer View Post
    I'm fine with having Jim back. He seems to make a lot of goofy decisions but I am certain that if we payed as much attention to any other team, we'd second guess that manager just as much as we second guess Jim. The players love him and he understands that he is not the show, and I think those are the most important traits for a big league manager these days.

    As for the rest of the staff, well... I'd be fine if Lloyd and Gene were eaten by wolves at this point.
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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    Not watching a single game. **** this.
    What a bummer!
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  24. #64
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    All of us who are welcoming Jim back will be cursing him when he bats Berry second on opening day.

  25. #65
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  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonlenska View Post
    Didn't expect this. Not upset though.
    Really?

    You expected the manager of a World Series team, who's managed the team to two straight LCS, to be replaced by Mike Ilitch?

    Is that seriously what you expected?

    I'm not sure who the Tigers were supposed to get to replace Jim Leyland. It's not as though there is a pool of World Series-level managers looking for work.

    The bottom line is that the players love playing for Jim Leyland, and he is currently the most successful manager in the American League. There was not a chance he was going to be fired and replaced by anyone. We can all level tactical criticisms at him fairly, and I'd bet they do so on the inside as well, but no one in a decision-making capacity was going to argue with the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    Welcome to the Board! And I agree 1 billion percent.
    Thanks. I've been lurking for a while now but I thought I would wait until the series played out before getting involved in the board. I'm hoping that this helps kill the boredom that will last for the next couple of months...
    I love the Detroit Tigers.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
    Really?

    You expected the manager of a World Series team, who's managed the team to two straight LCS, to be replaced by Mike Ilitch?

    Is that seriously what you expected?

    I'm not sure who the Tigers were supposed to get to replace Jim Leyland. It's not as though there is a pool of World Series-level managers looking for work.

    The bottom line is that the players love playing for Jim Leyland, and he is currently the most successful manager in the American League. There was not a chance he was going to be fired and replaced by anyone. We can all level tactical criticisms at him fairly, and I'd bet they do so on the inside as well, but no one in a decision-making capacity was going to argue with the results.
    it's not out of the ordinary for someone of Jim's age to retire. Doubt anyone thought he'd get fired, it's his job at this point until he decides he doesn't want to manage anymore
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  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by will the thrill View Post
    it's not out of the ordinary for someone of Jim's age to retire. Doubt anyone thought he'd get fired, it's his job at this point until he decides he doesn't want to manage anymore
    That's a fair point. I interpreted the post as surprised we brought him back, not surprised that he didn't retire.

    I would have bet 2:1 against Leyland retiring.

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigermojo View Post
    All of us who are welcoming Jim back will be cursing him when he bats Berry second on opening day.
    Well, at least it's not Rhymes.

    The key to manipulating Leyland into making better line-ups, is to give him a better roster. DD (and Illitch) have been good at giving him star talent, but the supporting cast has left a bit to be desired. If you don't want him running Berry out there, then replace Berry with something a little better.
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  31. #71
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    So, here is my somewhat complicated position on Leyland:

    First, there are few managers out there that deal with a clubhouse better. He's fantastic at it. He cares about his players, takes little garbage, and is really, really loyal to people, especially those he likes.

    Second, the world series disaster was not his fault. There are problems with the Tigers, but those 4 games were not a Leyland problem, IMO.

    Third, he's an atrocious in game manager. Obviously I'm more aware of his mistakes than any other managers, but some of his strengths in the clubhouse translate to weaknesses in managing games. If evaluating him on this measure alone, he not only should be fired, but never should have been hired. He aggressively avoids learning anything about baseball to inform his managerial tactics.

    Fourth, the Tigers were a flawed team this year. They put a combination of people together for the first half that were not major league caliber as a team in turning batted balls into outs. They had a whole group of hitters with question marks and all but one was close to as bad as possible in how their season actually went. Given all that, they won the division and went to the world series.

    So what's the conclusion? Leyland has done things that merit dismissal, there is no doubt. The disaster with Valverde was the absolute worst in game management decision I've ever seen, and I've watched Dusty Baker. At this point, though, taking everything into account, if Leyland wants to come back, you have to have him back. You can't, IMO, reasonably fire a manager that has taken a team as flawed as the Tigers to the World Series, even given the results.

    For all my gnashing of teeth over the year, I wouldn't fire the guy if it was my decision right now.

    I also guarantee that this means another year of him making me want to bash my head against a wall. However, I do think that the flaws (DH, 1 corner OF, and 1-2 relievers) this team has are actually fairly easily fixed in the off-season, as corner outfielders and relievers are the most easily available upgrades. It doesn't hurt that the Tigers may have some of the answers in-house (Martinez, Rondon, Castellanos).

    I predict that with Leyland, the Tigers are a 90+ win team next year, and I wouldn't bet against another WS appearance and maybe even a win. When you have 3 or 4 outstanding SP and two of the better hitters in the majors, that's the way things work.

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  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem View Post
    Indeed. Delmon in the 5th hole during the regular season, Boesch continuing to get ABs when the writing was already permanently etched in the wall etc...

    The only time that Leyland has managed with any sense of urgency (as I recall) was when his first contract was about to expire and then during the 2012 ALCS.
    And who should have batted 5th. Yeah, Leyland ran guys out there but he did it trying to get the guys right for the long run because he had no other alternatives. And as it turned out Young did pretty well in the postseason as did Coke (another one who made me cringe when Leyland would bring him the second half of the season). Trying to get Raburn and Boesch right drove me nuts too but again he needed them given his alternatives were a couple of rookies.

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigermojo View Post
    All of us who are welcoming Jim back will be cursing him when he bats Berry second on opening day.
    So here's the thing. If the Tigers have Berry/Young/Garcia as an opening day corner OF, that's not a Leyland problem. That's a Dombrowski problem, since none of those guys are major league caliber OF at this point (Berry and Young never will be, and Garcia ain't there yet, and probably never will be) It's clear where they need to improve. To paraphrase the cable guy: Take $10 million and Git 'er done.

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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Well, at least it's not Rhymes.

    The key to manipulating Leyland into making better line-ups, is to give him a better roster. DD (and Illitch) have been good at giving him star talent, but the supporting cast has left a bit to be desired. If you don't want him running Berry out there, then replace Berry with something a little better.
    Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

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  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobSk View Post
    So, here is my somewhat complicated position on Leyland:

    First, there are few managers out there that deal with a clubhouse better. He's fantastic at it. He cares about his players, takes little garbage, and is really, really loyal to people, especially those he likes.

    Second, the world series disaster was not his fault. There are problems with the Tigers, but those 4 games were not a Leyland problem, IMO.

    Third, he's an atrocious in game manager. Obviously I'm more aware of his mistakes than any other managers, but some of his strengths in the clubhouse translate to weaknesses in managing games. If evaluating him on this measure alone, he not only should be fired, but never should have been hired. He aggressively avoids learning anything about baseball to inform his managerial tactics.

    Fourth, the Tigers were a flawed team this year. They put a combination of people together for the first half that were not major league caliber as a team in turning batted balls into outs. They had a whole group of hitters with question marks and all but one was close to as bad as possible in how their season actually went. Given all that, they won the division and went to the world series.

    So what's the conclusion? Leyland has done things that merit dismissal, there is no doubt. The disaster with Valverde was the absolute worst in game management decision I've ever seen, and I've watched Dusty Baker. ...
    Rob
    I agree exactly with the analysis to this point, but I am less sanguine about bringing him back just because I think the older he gets, the more rigid he may become and the more the flaws become even more dominant. But you never know, maybe after this season he will break the other way. I'll be happy to be wrong about him.
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  36. #76
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    Other than MccClendon and Lamont coming back, I've got no problem with this.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    I agree exactly with the analysis to this point, but I am less sanguine about bringing him back just because I think the older he gets, the more rigid he may become and the more the flaws become even more dominant. But you never know, maybe after this season he will break the other way. I'll be happy to be wrong about him.
    I have no argument against this. As bad as he's been in games (atrocious was not intended to be an overstatement), when not under the influence of severe rage I was unable to convince myself that we should fire a guy who was the manager of a team that went to the WS. All that said: I kinda wish he had retired.

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  38. #78
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    Give Jim an above average #2 hitter and an above average #5 hitter and the Tigers will be back in the World Series next year. The #5 hitter is solved provided Victor comes back healthy. The above average #2 hitter is gonna have to come from outside the organization........This spot has been a black hole since Placido left. Perhaps Infante could fill the role fulltime if Leyland would leave just him there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    You don't honestly believe that it has nothing to do with the actual players they've had to manage do you? This is ridiculous.
    Actually I believe it is mostly players. More than anything I was playing devil's advocate. On the other hand, I don't think Bobby Valentine takes this team to the World Series. I think Leyland keeps guys on track and focused and stayed calm and clear to his vision even when things look rough, when you have talent that is the most important thing.

    My point more than anything is that he has more post season appearances as a manager than anyone since the early 1900s so to act like he has been a miserable failure as a manager, to me, is pushing it.
    Last edited by NeedMoreLike84; 10-30-2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    Not watching a single game. **** this.
    That'll show 'em.

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