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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Trout could hit like Don Kelly next year and it would have nothing to do with how valuable he was in 2012. He's getting drooled over because he is doing some historical things. Not things that have never been done, but things that are very rarely done when it comes to the combination of statistics he put up and the WAR he put up(like 6 OFs have put up 10 WAR in a season in the liveball era and they are all legends, it doesn't happen by accident)
    It doesn't, BUT....it would add weight to those who picked Cabby when the race was supposedly so close this year.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    It doesn't, BUT....it would add weight to those who picked Cabby when the race was supposedly so close this year.
    It absolutely would not. That makes no sense whatsoever.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    No other player in history has matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season. I would have voted Trout, but I refused to get into discussions about it, either online or in person, because it'd be inevitable you'd run into several clown statements such as we've seen in this thread, which isn't even worth my time.
    Also, Ty Cobb 1911 more impressive IMO.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    More impressive IMO is below:

    Larry Walker 1997:
    Runs: 143

    HR: 49

    RBI: 130

    SB: 33

    BA: .366
    I'm not sure what your point is? Larry was better in '97 so there's no way Trout had more overall value?

    Forget the "WAR" statistic, look at traditional stats if you want. Defense, stolen bases, BA, HR, the combination of everything he did, even if you only look at traditional statistics, pretty easily matches up with everything Cabrera did when you factor in defense, the amount of double plays they each hit into, baserunning... these are all traditional statistics and Trout matches up. Refuse to knowledge it if you want, but going all 13 year old and calling people childish names like "war fanboy" is a pathetic way to debate something.
    Last edited by Yoda; 11-16-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    No other player in history has matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season. I would have voted Trout, but I refused to get into discussions about it, either online or in person, because it'd be inevitable you'd run into several clown statements such as we've seen in this thread, which isn't even worth my time.
    Eric Davis 1986 is close also.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  6. #166
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    Joe Morgan 1975
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  7. #167
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    Ricky Henderson 1990
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  8. #168
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    So you've come up with 4 guys in the history of the game. Doesn't that tell you anything?
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Joe Morgan 1975
    And again in 1976
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  10. #170
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    Cesar Cedeno 1972

    Barry Bonds 1990
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    And Todd Helton in 2001 and Manny Ramirez in 1999 both ended up with better numbers than Cabrera in all three Triple Crown categories, so I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Babe Ruth did it 6 times, Hack Wilson did it in 1930, Jimmie Foxx did it 3x, Joe DiMaggio in 1937 and Lou Gehrig 4x.

    What I said about no other player ever having matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season is a fact. There have been 17 other instances of a player matching Cabrera's .330 BA, 44 HR and 139 RBI.

  12. #172
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    Hanley Ramirez 2007

    Eric Davis 1987
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    And again in 1976
    earning him two MVP awards
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    And Todd Helton in 2001 and Manny Ramirez in 1999 both ended up with better numbers than Cabrera in all three Triple Crown categories, so I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Babe Ruth did it 6 times, Hack Wilson did it in 1930, Jimmie Foxx did it 3x, Joe DiMaggio in 1937 and Lou Gehrig 4x.

    What I said about no other player ever having matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season is a fact. There have been 17 other instances of a player matching Cabrera's .330 BA, 44 HR and 139 RBI.
    I sorted the 'All time single season steal leaders' by steals because that seems to be what is separating Trout in many peoples opinions. All of the guys I listed above had MORE steals than Trouts and arguably had better hitting seasons as well.

    You cannot have it both ways and say 'old school stats do not matter' and then in the same breath bring up Trouts BA and HR.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I sorted the 'All time single season steal leaders' by steals because that seems to be what is separating Trout in many peoples opinions. All of the guys I listed above had MORE steals than Trouts and arguably had better hitting seasons as well.

    You cannot have it both ways and say 'old school stats do not matter' and then in the same breath bring up Trouts BA and HR.
    I said that?

  16. #176
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    Not sure where JBK is getting his numbers but none of his examples are correct. No other player has ever batted .326 with 30HR, 49 SB. It doesn't matter if someone almost did that. That's like finding examples of players that almost won the triple crown.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    I said that?
    The 'you' in that post was not directly aimed at you. It was aimed at those talking about Trout having an 'all time' season with cherry picked stats....just like the triple crown is 'cherry picked stats that only mattered 80 years ago'. I apologize if you are not among that crowd.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Also, Ty Cobb 1911 more impressive IMO.
    So, if someone is not better than Ty Cobb's best year, they aren't impressive?
    Lee Panas
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    The 'you' in that post was not directly aimed at you. It was aimed at those talking about Trout having an 'all time' season with cherry picked stats....just like the triple crown is 'cherry picked stats that only mattered 80 years ago'. I apologize if you are not among that crowd.
    They are not cherry picked stats (they are ones that have been used traditionally), but they aren't the most meaningful ones either.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  20. #180
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    The beauty of baseball is that often discussions are in the grey area rather than black and white.

    Trout had a great season doing things no one has ever done before. Cabrera had a great season being the first to win the triple crown in decades. My vote would've gone to Cabrera due to both having amazing years but Cabrera winning barely due to him finishing the season strong (and some would argue that all games are just as important, but that's not my stance) and playing a full season (when Trout had no control over the Angel's poor roster management).

    Point being, everyone values things slightly differently. Appreciate that when analyzing baseball and these discussions become fun rather than one getting annoyed at the other side.

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    EXACTLY. I am sick to death of this kid already...and it is not even his fault....it is the fan boys drooling all over him like he is Babe Ruth or something and the 'National' love the kid has been getting.

    I said this before and I will say it again.....I would LOVE for Trout to have a pedestrian year next year while Cabby puts up numbers that put him in the MVP talk AGAIN for like the 7th time in his career. Then I want to see all the WaR fanboys defend Trout and their thought that he should have won the MVP over Cabby this year and dismiss 'old school stats that they thought were important 80 years ago'.
    This post is just as silly and arrogant as anything Keith Law has ever said.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  22. #182
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    Updated

    Quote Originally Posted by KCFITZ78 View Post
    *I will update this post here when awards are announced**

    Hank Aaron Award
    American League
    Miguel Cabrera
    National League

    Buster Posey

    Comeback Players
    American League
    Fernando Rodney
    National League
    Buster Posey

    Clemente Award
    Clayton Kershaw

    Delivery Man of the Year
    Fernando Rodney

    Players Choice Awards
    Player of the Year:
    Miguel Cabrera, Tigers
    Marvin Miller Man of the Year:
    Chipper Jones, Braves
    Outstanding Player, AL:
    Miguel Cabrera, Tigers
    Outstanding Player, NL:
    Andrew McCutchen, Pirates
    Outstanding Pitcher, AL:
    David Price, Rays
    Outstanding Pitcher, NL:
    R.A. Dickey, Mets
    Outstanding Rookie, AL:
    Mike Trout, Angels
    Outstanding Rookie, NL:
    Todd Frazier, Reds
    Comeback Player, AL:
    Adam Dunn, White Sox
    Comeback Player, NL:
    Buster Posey, Giants

    Wilson Defensive Players of the Year
    AL East
    BAL: J.J. Hardy, SS
    BOS: Dustin Pedroia, 2B
    NYY: Robinson Cano, 2B
    TB: Jose Molina, C
    TOR: Brett Lawrie, 3B
    AL Central
    CWS: Alexei Ramirez, SS
    CLE: Jason Kipnis, 2B
    DET: Austin Jackson, CF
    KC: Lorenzo Cain, CF
    MIN: Denard Span, CF
    AL West
    LAA: Mike Trout, CF
    OAK: Josh Reddick, RF
    SEA: Brendan Ryan, SS
    TEX: Adrian Beltre, 3B
    NL East
    ATL: Michael Bourn, CF
    MIA: Giancarlo Stanton, RF
    NYM: David Wright, 3B
    PHI: Carlos Ruiz, C
    WAS: Adam LaRoche, 1B
    NL Central
    CHC: Darwin Barney, 2B
    CIN: Brandon Phillips, 2B
    HOU: Justin Maxwell, CF
    MIL: Carlos Gomez, CF
    PIT: Andrew McCutchen, CF
    STL: Yadier Molina, C
    NL West
    ARI: Aaron Hill, 2B
    COL: Carlos Gonzalez, LF
    LAD: Matt Kemp, CF
    SD: Chase Headley, 3B
    SF: Brandon Crawford, SS


    Rawlings Gold Glove
    American League
    C: Matt Wieters, BAL
    1B: Mark Teixeira, NYY
    2B: Robinson Cano, NYY
    3B: Adrian Beltre, TEX
    SS: J.J. Hardy, BAL
    LF: Alex Gordon, KC
    CF: Adam Jones, BAL
    RF: Josh Reddick, OAK
    P: Jeremy Hellickson, TB
    P: Jake Peavy, CWS
    National League
    C: Yadier Molina, STL
    1B: Adam LaRoche, WAS
    2B: Darwin Barney, CHC
    3B: Chase Headley, SD
    SS: Jimmy Rollins, PHI
    LF: Carlos Gonzalez, COL
    CF: Andrew McCutchen, PIT
    RF: Jason Heyward, ATL
    P: Mark Buehrle, MIA

    Louisville Silver Slugger
    American League
    C: A.J. Pierzynski
    1B: Prince Fielder
    2B: Robinson Cano
    3B: Miguel Cabrera
    SS: Derek Jeter
    OF: Mike Trout
    OF: Josh Willingham
    OF: Josh Hamilton
    DH: Billy Butler
    National League
    C: Buster Posey
    1B: Adam LaRoche
    2B: Aaron Hill
    3B: Chase Headley
    SS: Ian Desmond
    OF: Andrew McCutchen
    OF: Jay Bruce
    OF: Ryan Braun
    P: Stephen Strasburg

    Manager of the Year
    American League
    Bob Melvin - OAK
    National League
    Davey Johnson - WAS

    Rookie of the Year
    American League
    Mike Trout - LAA
    National League
    Bryce Harper - WAS

    Cy Young Award
    American League
    David Price - TB
    National League
    R.A. Dickey - NYM

    MVP Award
    American League
    Miguel Cabrera
    National League
    Buster Posey

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    It doesn't, BUT....it would add weight to those who picked Cabby when the race was supposedly so close this year.
    How is this true?
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    The three most important batting stats and the easiest to count. They are counting stats that do not take into account opinion.
    The triple crown stats aren't the most important or the easiest to count. This wasn't even true 80 years ago.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    The triple crown stats aren't the most important or the easiest to count. This wasn't even true 80 years ago.
    Yes it is and yes it was.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Yes it is and yes it was.
    80 years ago, home runs and RBI were not regarded as highly as they are today. Batting average was, but runs was probably a bigger deal than hr, rbi.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Yes it is and yes it was.
    I get that you don't like me very much but do you really think claiming that counting RBI's is easier than counting runs scored is helping you out here? 'Most important' is at least subjective. Easiest to count? That is just stupid.
    Slowsilver: They did a study at Baseball Prospectus and found out that bionic parts increase WARP23 by 6.7% on average. Back in the steroid era, steroids only increased WARP23 by 4.6%

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    Quote Originally Posted by qsilvr2531 View Post
    I get that you don't like me very much but do you really think claiming that counting RBI's is easier than counting runs scored is helping you out here? 'Most important' is at least subjective. Easiest to count? That is just stupid.
    If he doesn't have you blocked, then he probably likes you.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    80 years ago, home runs and RBI were not regarded as highly as they are today. Batting average was, but runs was probably a bigger deal than hr, rbi.
    According to Baseball Reference, baseball's first use of "Triple Crown" referred to hits, runs and batting average. The first use of HR, RBI and average was in 1936.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    If he doesn't have you blocked, then he probably likes you.
    Or hasn't gotten around to it yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    According to Baseball Reference, baseball's first use of "Triple Crown" referred to hits, runs and batting average. The first use of HR, RBI and average was in 1936.
    Stupid fanboy stats!!!!!
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    For the record I don't have a problem with Cabrera winning the MVP, what bothers me is that people cite the triple crown as the reason why he should. So you're basically saying if Curtis Granderson would've hit 4HRs that final game instead of 2 to win the HR title that would suddenly make Miguel Cabrera less valuable or less of a player? Also I don't understand how this got turned into a traditional vs. saber debate, to me this is more about people wanting the MVP to go to the best all around player, not the best hitter. There is alot more to baseball than swinging the bat, and I think we can all agree that Trout is head and shoulders better than Cabrera in all those things.

    You would think Tigers fans would appreciate all the things Trout does, I mean after all these same people clamoring for Berry because of his "intangibles" and speed and energy he brings are probably the ones that are dismissing those same things that Trout brings to the table in the MVP race. I personally have watched Trout score from first on a single, I've watched him go from 1st to 3rd on a single to LF, I've seen him advance two bases constantly on balls that every other player would only move one base. Those are the type of things that the so called statheads or saber people are talking about. If you don't think that adds a ton of value to your team than you are wrong. Plain and simply, Cabrera wreaks havoc only when he's in the batters box, Trout wreaks havoc in the batters box, when he's on the bases, and when he's in the field.

  33. #193
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    I would kill a basket full of puppies to have Trout on the Tigers. I still think Miggy deserved the MVP.
    "The escalator isn't out of order. It's just temporarily stairs."

  34. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    I personally have watched Trout score from first on a single, I've watched him go from 1st to 3rd on a single to LF, I've seen him advance two bases constantly on balls that every other player would only move one base. Those are the type of things that the so called statheads or saber people are talking about. If you don't think that adds a ton of value to your team than you are wrong. Plain and simply, Cabrera wreaks havoc only when he's in the batters box, Trout wreaks havoc in the batters box, when he's on the bases, and when he's in the field.
    Which Cabrera for MVP supporter has said that baserunning as you mentioned doesn't add value to the team? No one is saying Trout isn't very valuable.

  35. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    80 years ago, home runs and RBI were not regarded as highly as they are today. Batting average was, but runs was probably a bigger deal than hr, rbi.
    Wow, I thought I was the oldest poster on this board!
    It's pronounced Canada, and no, I haven't.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Some people like to use RE24 or WPA which do take those things into consideration. Those can easily be plugged into the WAR formula instead of batting runs.
    Oh my goodness. Are you serious? How about a stat for batting after 3:00 P.M., against a LH pitcher, on the road and bases loaded?
    Sometimes stats can be somewhat overbearing, confusing and just outright boring and meaningless.

    I watched an Angel game against Texas last season when the Angels really needed a win. Long flyball to CF, which should have been played off the wall, holding the runner to a double.
    But no, Trout had to leap for it, even though it was 10 feet over his outstreched glove. The Texas hitter ended up with a one out triple and then scored on a sac fly, with the winning run.
    Trout lost the game for the Angels. I wonder how many other rookie mistakes he made? All we ever see are the great plays, over and over, on ESPN. They never showed his screw-ups.

    Trout had a great season, no doubt about it. He was a no-brainer for ROY. But throw away all of your aWAR, cWAR and other stats nobody looks at, except stat geeks.

    Miguel Cabrera is the 2012 AL MVP.
    2014 AAT: Brennan Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    Oh my goodness. Are you serious? How about a stat for batting after 3:00 P.M., against a LH pitcher, on the road and bases loaded?
    Sometimes stats can be somewhat overbearing, confusing and just outright boring and meaningless.

    .....

    Trout had a great season, no doubt about it. He was a no-brainer for ROY. But throw away all of your aWAR, cWAR and other stats nobody looks at, except stat geeks.

    Miguel Cabrera is the 2012 AL MVP.
    I thought this was kind of a d-bag response to what was a pretty innocuous post on my part. Are you Mitch Albom?
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    The minor league awards from TigsTown.
    Scout.com: 2012 TigsTown Awards: Prospects of the Year

    Ryan DeWitt Minor League Player of the Year

    OF Avisail Garcia

    Brian Bluhm Minor League Pitcher of the Year

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    I find it weird that all the geek stats should have gotten Verlander the CY Young, but don't help Trout int he MVP....

    My vote would have been Trout, but I didn't expect him to win, but did expect it to be much closer. Baseball is an "old boys" club in my opinion, it's the same reason everyone thinks Leyland is great and Gene Lamont gets paid to coach third base, baseball people go with what they already know and are normally afraid to take chances. It's the reason Moneyball worked at first, and Theo epstein brought a title to Boston, the ability to think outside the box and realize it can work if you go against the normal. OPS wasn't widely appreciated at first either, but now it's listed on tv when a batter walks to the plate in most games, they'll figure out which WAR value they like the best and 5 years from now it'll be right there with BA/HR/RBI/OPS/WAR at everyone's fingertips because it's what we all really want to know, how valuable is this guy?
    Put me on record. Prince Fielder will still OPS 850+ in years 7-8-9 of this contract. (sucks that my signature has to stay this for 7 years now)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I thought this was kind of a d-bag response to what was a pretty innocuous post on my part. Are you Mitch Albom?
    It wasn't directed at you, just the point that some of the newer stats have so little meaning.

    A HR has much more meaning than a runner stealing a base.
    An RBI has much more meaning than a runner taking an extra base.

    Too many stats cause confusion and disagreements. I like the old time stats that everyone understands.
    A much better discussion is what would Miggy's numbers be if he played in a HR friendly park?
    50 home runs with 150 RBI? It's very possible. And there would still be a discussion about Trout's WAR?
    I mean, come on. Talk to 1000 casual baseball fans and the only thing they would know about WAR is they think it's some new stat that the internet world made up. (yeah, that does sound like Albom lol)

    Did Bill James invent it? Probably just wanting to show everyone how smart he thinks he is.

    But the bottom line is the baseball writers of America ignored it, totally pissing off the sabers. And that's my point, I'm tired of "discussing" which player is more valuable.
    They're both valuable to their team, play different positions and are totally different players.

    I will even go out on a limb and say, IN MY OPINION, Miggy isn't even the most valuable Tiger, at least every 5th day. That distinction belongs to JV.

    As for Trout? I really like the guy, not just the way he plays but also his humility. He was talking about what an honor it was to even be compared to a Cabrera. The kid has a lot of class and it's pretty refreshing in this day and age of these pampered athletes pounding their chests every chance they get.

    I really am done discussing this. Miggy is the 2012 MVP. End of story. If I rubbed you (or anyone else) the wrong way, I'm sorry. I respect your posts, even when I don't agree with them. I guess I just made the mistake of posting when I was in a really foul mood.
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