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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynr View Post
    I dont know the Angels roster like I do the Tigers but If its a fictional player that is being used in the formula then You can come up with any kind of numbers you want. I think this WAR is the dumbest stat I have ever heard of. I do watch the games and From what I can see with my eyes is that Cabrera Is the best player in the game.
    I don't see how WAR tells you any less about a player than the Triple Crown does. Atleast WAR factors in what position you play, how good your defense is, how good you are on the basepaths, how few of outs you make, as well as your doubles and triples. The Triple Crown takes into account none of those. And the TC is made up of 3 stats, if you just looked at each one individually it would tell you even less about a player.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynr View Post
    I dont know the Angels roster like I do the Tigers but If its a fictional player that is being used in the formula then You can come up with any kind of numbers you want. I think this WAR is the dumbest stat I have ever heard of. I do watch the games and From what I can see with my eyes is that Cabrera Is the best player in the game.
    And hard to argue with that. I'm SO relieved the "old-school" stats still count for something. Had Cabrera NOT won the Triple Crown, then the winner's Trout hands-down.
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    But my beef with War is you are using a fictional player, not the player that would have replaced him. You can make up stats all day long with fictional players and it doesnt mean anything. Tell me who would replace Trout, I can it would have been Tori Hunter and he is very close defensively but not as good on offence but not a bum by any means. And Im sure Don kelly would have been Cabrera's replacement so thats a huge difference.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    Trout was the FIRST and ONLY player to hit 30HRs while leading the league in steals and runs. What makes that any less impressive than winning the Triple Crown? Because people nearly a century ago thought those 3 stats were most important? I mean don't get me wrong, I love Miggy but to vote for him just because he did something that hasn't been done in 45 years is extremely flawed because Trout did things that nobody in the history of the game have done.
    Different players with different styles. Take Cabby off the Tigers and Trout off the Angels. You would probably have a 4th place Tiger team and a 3rd place Angel team.

    And take a look a the stats in the last 6 weeks of the season. Trout wore down, after only playing about 140 games. Miggy carried the Tigers with a bum ankle.

    I can see arguments for both players, their styles are totally different. But not giving Miggy the MVP would be the same as not giving a pitcher the Cy Young if he won 30 games. But as we all know, wins are a terrible way to evaluate a pitcher.

    I tip my hat to Trout and to be honest, if I were to start a team and had a choice of Trout or Cabby? I would probably take Trout and that wouldn't have anything to do with team control or salary. All things being equal, if Trout can reproduce these numbers for 7 or 8 years, he may end up as a Hall of Famer.

    But with all those wall crashing great catches? Sometime in the future, he's going to run into a wall that's not as forgiving. A leg injury could really turn him into an average player.
    It's pretty impressive, playing such a demanding position and doing so well offensively. Very well deserving of ROY. But MVP? Nope, didn't cut it and the blow out win by Miggy proves it.
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  5. #125
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    Ugh.

    Torii isn't taking Trout's place in the lineup. He's already in the lineup. The guy that's replacing Hunter is the guy who is getting Trout's AB's. A replacement player, probably someone right on pace with what Kelly would do.

    I don't expect you're going to take the time to actually understand what WAR measures and it's purpose, so let's get back to you watching all the games... because I'm dying to know how many Angels games you watched.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    Different players with different styles. Take Cabby off the Tigers and Trout off the Angels. You would probably have a 4th place Tiger team and a 3rd place Angel team.

    And take a look a the stats in the last 6 weeks of the season. Trout wore down, after only playing about 140 games. Miggy carried the Tigers with a bum ankle.

    I can see arguments for both players, their styles are totally different. But not giving Miggy the MVP would be the same as not giving a pitcher the Cy Young if he won 30 games. But as we all know, wins are a terrible way to evaluate a pitcher.

    I tip my hat to Trout and to be honest, if I were to start a team and had a choice of Trout or Cabby? I would probably take Trout and that wouldn't have anything to do with team control or salary. All things being equal, if Trout can reproduce these numbers for 7 or 8 years, he may end up as a Hall of Famer.

    But with all those wall crashing great catches? Sometime in the future, he's going to run into a wall that's not as forgiving. A leg injury could really turn him into an average player.
    It's pretty impressive, playing such a demanding position and doing so well offensively. Very well deserving of ROY. But MVP? Nope, didn't cut it and the blow out win by Miggy proves it.
    No it doesn't... If Trout takes his team to playoffs and Cabrera doesn't, you really think it's a "blow out win" for Cabrera? I'm not sure it would have been a win at all. I think that was the deciding factor for the voters. That and a lot of them are old school and didn't want to look at the entire makeup of both players, but that's fine.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    I don't see how WAR tells you any less about a player than the Triple Crown does. Atleast WAR factors in what position you play, how good your defense is, how good you are on the basepaths, how few of outs you make, as well as your doubles and triples. The Triple Crown takes into account none of those. And the TC is made up of 3 stats, if you just looked at each one individually it would tell you even less about a player.
    How about BA with runners on base and 2 outs? Or offensive production from the 7th inning on? Does WAR take that into account?
    Also, the last several weeks of the seasons stats. It all counts. The voters are old school and something like the Triple Crown is very, very hard to ignore.
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    Do you guys prefer fWAR or bWAR?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    How about BA with runners on base and 2 outs? Or offensive production from the 7th inning on? Does WAR take that into account?
    Also, the last several weeks of the seasons stats. It all counts. The voters are old school and something like the Triple Crown is very, very hard to ignore.
    Agreed, which is why he won. In your previous post you said the fact that Cabrera won proves that he was a better player, so which is it?

    If you only look at BA, HR, RBI, yes Cabrera was a far superior player. But if you look at the entire skill set of each player, it would be foolish to say Cabrera is way better. That isn't really what the MVP is for, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    Do you guys prefer fWAR or bWAR?
    I like looking at the components that go into them rather than just looking at the lump sum. That being said, I don't prefer one over the other.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    How about BA with runners on base and 2 outs? Or offensive production from the 7th inning on? Does WAR take that into account?
    .
    Some people like to use RE24 or WPA which do take those things into consideration. Those can easily be plugged into the WAR formula instead of batting runs.
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sports_Freak View Post
    . Very well deserving of ROY. But MVP? Nope, didn't cut it and the blow out win by Miggy proves it.
    Does Adam Jones's Gold Glove prove he's the best center fielder in the AL?
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    Trout was the FIRST and ONLY player to hit 30HRs while leading the league in steals and runs. What makes that any less impressive than winning the Triple Crown? Because people nearly a century ago thought those 3 stats were most important? I mean don't get me wrong, I love Miggy but to vote for him just because he did something that hasn't been done in 45 years is extremely flawed because Trout did things that nobody in the history of the game have done.
    Eric Davis hit 37 HR, .991 OPS, stole 50/56 bases and scored 120 runs in 129 games in 1987. He also played a gg CF, with a higher fielding % and over 2x as many assists and 100 RBI to boot. He arguably had a more impressive year than Trout's year this year in 10 less games played and finished 9th in the MVP race. He didn't lead the league in steals that year, but he stole more bases.

    People talk about Trout like we've never seen a CF with 4+ tools (his arm is probably marginal for an MLB CF).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Does Adam Jones's Gold Glove prove he's the best center fielder in the AL?
    Not sure if he's better than a healthy Ellsbury, but he's damn good in CF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Eric Davis hit 37 HR, .991 OPS, stole 50/56 bases and scored 120 runs in 129 games in 1987. He also played a gg CF, with a higher fielding % and over 2x as many assists and 100 RBI to boot. He arguably had a more impressive year than Trout's year this year in 10 less games played and finished 9th in the MVP race. He didn't lead the league in steals that year, but he stole more bases.
    He should not have finished 9th in the MVP voting though. They screwed up the AL vote royally that year too. It's good to see the voters have made progress since 1987.
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Not sure if he's better than a healthy Ellsbury, but he's damn good in CF.
    I think Jackson and Trout were better.
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    I don't see how WAR tells you any less about a player than the Triple Crown does. Atleast WAR factors in what position you play, how good your defense is, how good you are on the basepaths, how few of outs you make, as well as your doubles and triples. The Triple Crown takes into account none of those. And the TC is made up of 3 stats, if you just looked at each one individually it would tell you even less about a player.
    Quote Originally Posted by ErieTigerFan View Post
    And hard to argue with that. I'm SO relieved the "old-school" stats still count for something. Had Cabrera NOT won the Triple Crown, then the winner's Trout hands-down.
    Well, according to the voting, Trout would have won it if you were to take Cabrera out of the equation. But, if Miggy would have fell a little short in one of the Triple Crown stats, he very well may have still won. It's totally amazing to me the vote was so lopsided. I really was expecting Trout to win it, so it was even a shock when Miggy won it.

    Trout's story right now is a Hollywood movie. To cap it off with the MVP would have been an even more incredible story.

    As for the WAR discussion? Maybe the voters did look at them and decided Trout's better numbers didn't make up for Miggy's season. I also thought Miggy's nationality, brashness with one (or more)of the voters (who are baseball writers) and past legal troubles would lose him several votes. And while it may have, it would have been a more popular win for Trout. He would turn into even more of an for us.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Ugh.

    Torii isn't taking Trout's place in the lineup. He's already in the lineup. The guy that's replacing Hunter is the guy who is getting Trout's AB's. A replacement player, probably someone right on pace with what Kelly would do.

    I don't expect you're going to take the time to actually understand what WAR measures and it's purpose, so let's get back to you watching all the games... because I'm dying to know how many Angels games you watched.
    Well quite a few I have mlb extra innings and watch a lot of games

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    Quote Originally Posted by waynr View Post
    . Im talking about what ever That WAR thing means. I dont understand that. From what i gather its what wins u would get above a fictional player. If thats true you can make up anything you want..
    They don't just make up anything they want. They use the same replacement level for every player. People get so hung up on the replacement player thing, but it's really just a way to give a player credit for his playing time. In this case, it helps Cabrera because he had more playing time than Trout. They should probably just get rid of the word replacement because all it does it confuse people.
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    Just to chime in on a few things I've seen in a thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerNation View Post
    He actually won because two LA voters voted Price 1st, Weaver 2nd, and JV 3rd.

    JV wins if those two vote him 2nd, as Weaver as no argument for being even in the same league as JV this past season.
    This isn't true. Cy Young voting is 7-4-3-2-1. Price finished with 153 points, Verlander with 149. If those two LA voters went Verlander second and Weaver third, Price still would have won. Verlander got 6 points as a result of those two third place votes, and would have gained only two votes had he received 2nd place votes from each of those writers. Final result would've been Price 151, Verlander 151 and Weaver 68. Would not have impacted the final results whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antrat View Post
    Oh, boy. Just Trout is live.
    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    Yup. I'm kind of getting the feeling that Trout won. Just a gut feeling.
    In most cases, the team's PR/Communications departments do know of these awards before they are announced. For example, I know for a fact teams were aware of Gold Glove winners nearly a week in advance, if they had one. But for the awards announced by the BBWAA this week, the team had didn't know in advance. Jack O'Connell, the BBWAA's Secretary/Treasurer, was the only person that knew the results prior to announcing it on live TV. However, like I said last night in the "Misses Out On 2012 Cy Young Award" thread, I sincerely believe the Tigers terrible PR department cost Verlander a second straight Cy Young award. For example, the Rays sent out email blasts to all potential BBWAA voters starting in August making the case that Price should win the Cy Young, with bullet points of stats and other notes not easily accessible for beat writers or other voters. I also know for a fact that these email blasts swayed several voters. Also, the Tigers PR department is one of the worst in the AL, along with Toronto and Oakland. Had they made the effort in pushing for Verlander like the Rays did in pushing for Price, or if Verlander pitched for any other team with a better PR staff, I believe Verlander would have won the Cy Young. Why was Cabrera's Triple Crown not made a bigger deal than it was? There are several people that I know who place that blame on the Tigers Communications and Media Relations staff.

    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    JV finished ahead of Price in MVP but Price wins Cy Young. Logic.
    It's a different panel of voters, so it's really not surprising. Most "A" writers cast votes for MVP, while "B" writers, or, the "backup" in a particular city, cast votes for Cy Young. That the Cy Young race was so close to the point where one first place vote would have resulting in a different outcome, truly shows it could have went either way. Fernando Rodney was named team MVP in the voting by members of the Tampa Bay chapter of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, yet both TB writers with votes had Price first in Cy Young, and Verlander finished ahead of Price in MVP, so it really is just a crapshoot depending on who's voting.
    Last edited by froggyvk; 11-15-2012 at 10:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waynr View Post
    Well quite a few I have mlb extra innings and watch a lot of games
    I just looked at the Angels roster and Vernon Wells would have replaced Trout so I think that would be way better than Kelly

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post

    , I sincerely believe the Tigers terrible PR department cost Verlander a second straight Cy Young award. For example, the Rays sent out email blasts to all potential BBWAA voters starting in August making the case that Price should win the Cy Young, with bullet points of stats and other notes not easily accessible for beat writers or other voters. I also know for a fact that these email blasts swayed several voters. Also, the Tigers PR department is one of the worst in the AL, along with Toronto and Oakland. Had they made the effort in pushing for Verlander like the Rays did in pushing for Price, or if Verlander pitched for any other team with a better PR staff, I believe Verlander would have won the Cy Young. Why was Cabrera's Triple Crown not made a bigger deal than it was? There are several people that I know who place that blame on the Tigers Communications and Media Relations staff.
    Do you know anything about their statistical staff? My impression is that they are less into advanced stat analysis than other teams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Do you know anything about their statistical staff? My impression is that they are less into advanced stat analysis than other teams.
    You are correct. However, it's a fine line because you need to cater toward what might make it's way into print, and I know for the majority of beat writers, even stats like BABIP, which is something very easy to understand for you or I and something we always look at, can be over the heads of many, especially Detroit media. A quick look at their game notes, however, will tell you they don't go very much in depth on anything, it's mostly splits or counting stats which can be easily found on Baseball Reference or any other free statistics site. The best teams will have bullet points which cater to both sides, such as Hunter's average being over .300 for the first time in his career but also note that his K% is up, BB% is down and BABIP is high. I don't mean to rip on them too much or come off in such a negative manner toward them - they get the job done, they just don't go above and beyond in anything they do. Quick evidence of this is confirmed just by taking a look at Rick Thompson's Twitter feed during the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waynr View Post
    I just looked at the Angels roster and Vernon Wells would have replaced Trout so I think that would be way better than Kelly
    This has nothing to do with Trout or Cabrera's value. A player doesn't have more or less individual value because of another player on the roster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    This has nothing to do with Trout or Cabrera's value. A player doesn't have more or less individual value because of another player on the roster.
    Nah, Cabrera is better because Trout has a better backup. Don't you get it?
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    In one of Henning's articles during the middle of the season about the Tigers scouts, he mentioned that the Tigers have a SABR guy in their front office who graduated from Yale. So, they definitely use it; its just a matter of how much.

    What I would wonder is how well do teams, like the Tigers, use all the pitch f/x, field f/x technology to their benefit? That is the ultimate blend of stats and scouting and probably separates a lot of teams. The Giants are supposedly very old school, but they have been one of the leaders in the F/X technology so I question that long-held belief about them.

    Fans can really only go off of their own naked eye and stats like FIP, xFIP, wOBA, BB/K, etc. to help project future performance. However, teams have more information at their hands than we could ever dream of, including all that advanced technology and their own proprietary research that they conduct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
    In one of Henning's articles during the middle of the season about the Tigers scouts, he mentioned that the Tigers have a SABR guy in their front office who graduated from Yale. So, they definitely use it; its just a matter of how much.

    What I would wonder is how well do teams, like the Tigers, use all the pitch f/x, field f/x technology to their benefit? That is the ultimate blend of stats and scouting and probably separates a lot of teams. The Giants are supposedly very old school, but they have been one of the leaders in the F/X technology so I question that long-held belief about them.

    Fans can really only go off of their own naked eye and stats like FIP, xFIP, wOBA, BB/K, etc. to help project future performance. However, teams have more information at their hands than we could ever dream of, including all that advanced technology and their own proprietary research that they conduct.
    No question all teams have stat guys. Even the Twins hired someone last year. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that the Tigers are more old school than your average team. I'm sure they have access to information we don't have, just not sure how they use it. From what I gather, the Giants are not old school.
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  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    No question all teams have stat guys. Even the Twins hired someone last year. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that the Tigers are more old school than your average team. I'm sure they have access to information we don't have, just not sure how they use it. From what I gather, the Giants are not old school.
    I wonder how much of this is Leyland being the face of the team vs what the coaching staff might actually be doing. I think listening to what comes from the team about Porcello is an example. To hear JL talk about RP you would think the had never looked at his pitch break data, spin data, velocity profiles, or any of the things that tend to separate good pitchers from inning fillers. Yet on the few occasions when someone tries to get Jeff Jones on the record, it seems like a much more sophisticated take. JMO....
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    No question all teams have stat guys. Even the Twins hired someone last year. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that the Tigers are more old school than your average team. I'm sure they have access to information we don't have, just not sure how they use it. From what I gather, the Giants are not old school.
    There was an interview with DD during the playoffs about the way they built their starting pitching staff and he basically said, "I'm not going to moneyball you and give away any secrets because then we lose whatever competitive advantage we think we have." He did make it sound like it was something they started to do more and more of in recent years. He did mention things like pitch f/x and the fielding versions and made it sound like they weren't fully implemented yet across the league.

    I think simply that they do use them but in conjuction with what the scouts and other staff personally believe. At Tigerfest few years ago DD called himself "Old school" but that may have just been showing off in front of a few hundred fans witout boring them with acronyms they never heard of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMarsh View Post
    I don't see how WAR tells you any less about a player than the Triple Crown does. Atleast WAR factors in what position you play, how good your defense is, how good you are on the basepaths, how few of outs you make, as well as your doubles and triples. The Triple Crown takes into account none of those. And the TC is made up of 3 stats, if you just looked at each one individually it would tell you even less about a player.
    The three most important batting stats and the easiest to count. They are counting stats that do not take into account opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC24 View Post
    Do you guys prefer fWAR or bWAR?
    I prefer GWaR!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Eric Davis hit 37 HR, .991 OPS, stole 50/56 bases and scored 120 runs in 129 games in 1987. He also played a gg CF, with a higher fielding % and over 2x as many assists and 100 RBI to boot. He arguably had a more impressive year than Trout's year this year in 10 less games played and finished 9th in the MVP race. He didn't lead the league in steals that year, but he stole more bases.

    People talk about Trout like we've never seen a CF with 4+ tools (his arm is probably marginal for an MLB CF).
    EXACTLY. I am sick to death of this kid already...and it is not even his fault....it is the fan boys drooling all over him like he is Babe Ruth or something and the 'National' love the kid has been getting.

    I said this before and I will say it again.....I would LOVE for Trout to have a pedestrian year next year while Cabby puts up numbers that put him in the MVP talk AGAIN for like the 7th time in his career. Then I want to see all the WaR fanboys defend Trout and their thought that he should have won the MVP over Cabby this year and dismiss 'old school stats that they thought were important 80 years ago'.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    The three most important batting stats and the easiest to count. They are counting stats that do not take into account opinion.
    The easiest to count? Perhaps in 1993. Nowadays it doesn't take any effort to look at ops, sb, whatever. They're all on the same page as ba, hr and RBI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    EXACTLY. I am sick to death of this kid already...and it is not even his fault....it is the fan boys drooling all over him like he is Babe Ruth or something and the 'National' love the kid has been getting.

    I said this before and I will say it again.....I would LOVE for Trout to have a pedestrian year next year while Cabby puts up numbers that put him in the MVP talk AGAIN for like the 7th time in his career. Then I want to see all the WaR fanboys defend Trout and their thought that he should have won the MVP over Cabby this year and dismiss 'old school stats that they thought were important 80 years ago'.
    So if you take the time to include things like stolen bases and defense, it makes you a war fanboy? This might be the most smug post I've ever read on here.
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    Even though I do stats for collegiate baseball...it's mind-boggling to me how all the new sabr stats are kept for baseball. I feel like there's no way that it can be done instantaneously like traditional stats are. Are there people who go back and watch videos to determine things like UZR? It's just baffling how many stats there are being kept track of and I'd be curious to see how they are determined in real time considering there are things determined with every single pitch. Crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
    In one of Henning's articles during the middle of the season about the Tigers scouts, he mentioned that the Tigers have a SABR guy in their front office who graduated from Yale. So, they definitely use it; its just a matter of how much.
    Yes, most teams have them, how much they use them and rely on them are other questions, but I was talking to tiger337 about their PR dept, not baseball ops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    EXACTLY. I am sick to death of this kid already...and it is not even his fault....it is the fan boys drooling all over him like he is Babe Ruth or something and the 'National' love the kid has been getting.

    I said this before and I will say it again.....I would LOVE for Trout to have a pedestrian year next year while Cabby puts up numbers that put him in the MVP talk AGAIN for like the 7th time in his career. Then I want to see all the WaR fanboys defend Trout and their thought that he should have won the MVP over Cabby this year and dismiss 'old school stats that they thought were important 80 years ago'.
    Trout could hit like Don Kelly next year and it would have nothing to do with how valuable he was in 2012. He's getting drooled over because he is doing some historical things. Not things that have never been done, but things that are very rarely done when it comes to the combination of statistics he put up and the WAR he put up(like 6 OFs have put up 10 WAR in a season in the liveball era and they are all legends, it doesn't happen by accident)

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    No other player in history has matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season. I would have voted Trout, but I refused to get into discussions about it, either online or in person, because it'd be inevitable you'd run into several clown statements such as we've seen in this thread, which isn't even worth my time.
    Last edited by froggyvk; 11-16-2012 at 11:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    No other player in history has matched Trout's .326 BA, 30 HR and 49 SB in a season. I would have voted Trout, but I refused to get into discussions about it, either online or in person, because it'd be inevitable you'd run into several clown statements such as we've seen in this thread, which isn't even worth my time.
    More impressive IMO is below:

    Larry Walker 1997:
    Runs: 143

    HR: 49

    RBI: 130

    SB: 33

    BA: .366
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