2012-13 Offseason Discussion

[will the thrill]

it's not surprising that the teams that focus on their bench and their role players keep beating the tigers in the postseason. The Tigers seem to have taken the Yankee approach to fill the lineup and then who cares about the bench. Could the tigers have made the playoffs if one of their best offensive players got a 50 game suspension and they had to replace him off the bench? highly doubt it.

[TigersSlappy]

Phil Coke: “The game of baseball just kicked me in the butt” | HardballTalk

[ballmich]

I have to admit, there is slim pick'ens on the FA front, with regards to platoon OF's. We'll have to see what the non-tenders bring.

[ballmich]

If Young can get 1/$7 million, as suggested, what is Cody Ross worth? Alot more than Young, that is for sure.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

if they go into the season with Delmon young as their starting leftfielder, it'll show they've learned nothing from watching the team get beat by a sound defensive team in the world series. .250-15-60 that plays good defense is more valuable than the .270-16-74 that Delmon provides

Nobody hates Delmon more than me, but he has hit .307/.341/.483 against lefties lifetime, so if you largely limit him to OF duty on days a LHP is on the mound and a pinch hitter otherwise, I'd say that is better than playing a 0.250/15/60 LF with solid to good defense. But it requires you to find an OF with hits righties well to pair with him.

And there is some value to the possibility (however remote) that he repeats 2010, as well as the value that if an OF gets hurt, he could be a stop-gap.

[TheCouga]

I think one big difference in how Delmon is viewed today vs. last year is that (I think)there was some thought by the front office that Delmon reached what should be his prime age for hitting, and they took a gamble based at least on some part on that.

They lost that bet, and I think the front office is less bullish on Delmon's ceiling. Just a guess or hunch on my part.

I tend to agree. I was one of those last offseason that thought Delmon had upside that could still be tapped, and that with Leyland and Cabrera to guide him and learn from, that we would eventually see improvement. Unfortunately, he still has the plate approach of a 21-year-old. I am skeptical he will ever succeed, but he could end up being a good buy this offseason regardless. If we can sign him just to platoon and as insurance against V. Mart reaggravating his knee for something like $3MM, it could be a good option. Not the best option, but not out of the question.

I think one of the issues is that he's not good enough to be hitting fifth. If Delmon were dropped to seventh in our lineup due to the fact that we now have a legitimate 5th hitter in VMart, and platooned more often, I think his skill level in that lineup spot doesn't look so bad. Also, perhaps now that the fact that his career is literally slipping away, he might put in some serious work this offseason on improving his fielding, getting into better shape, and refining his plate approach. I wouldn't count on it, but the possibility is still there.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I tend to agree. I was one of those last offseason that thought Delmon had upside that could still be tapped, and that with Leyland and Cabrera to guide him and learn from, that we would eventually see improvement. Unfortunately, he still has the plate approach of a 21-year-old. I am skeptical he will ever succeed, but he could end up being a good buy this offseason regardless. If we can sign him just to platoon and as insurance against V. Mart reaggravating his knee for something like $3MM, it could be a good option. Not the best option, but not out of the question.

I think one of the issues is that he's not good enough to be hitting fifth. If Delmon were dropped to seventh in our lineup due to the fact that we now have a legitimate 5th hitter in VMart, and platooned more often, I think his skill level in that lineup spot doesn't look so bad. Also, perhaps now that the fact that his career is literally slipping away, he might put in some serious work this offseason on improving his fielding, getting into better shape, and refining his plate approach. I wouldn't count on it, but the possibility is still there.

I think we are on the same page here.

I really don't want Delmon, but if he is part of a plan that results in him being platooned and provide some injury insurance at a low salary, I wouldn't ***** too loudly (though I'd probably ***** some).

[TheCouga]

Good....I'm glad.

I'm sure the salary scolds will have something negative to say about the likely price, but if Sanchez delivers a commensurate level of performance, I will be happy with it.

I think we argued about this last year.

I wouldn't call myself a "salary scold" as much as a value hawk. We should strive to get value at every position, because that allows us to spend more salary at each remaining position. Any time we fill a rotation spot for six years with someone like Drew Smyly, that allows us to maintain a first or second Verlander-type player on our roster.

Someone else made an interesting point that re-signing Sanchez would be a way of picking up a free agent "for free" since we wouldn't have to give up a draft pick. I don't know if Sanchez is good enough under the current CBA to net a draft pick or not, though. But if he is, it's a good thought...we spend our resources in a way that also lets us build for the future.

[Jeff6851]

I would definitely take the .250 hitter with good defense that can play every day over the .300 against LHP platoon guy that gets the D taken out of his name to poke fun at how bad his defense is.

[PuNk42AE]

Are there any Tigers/Players Options out there for the next few weeks?

[tater6]

I think we argued about this last year.

I wouldn't call myself a "salary scold" as much as a value hawk. We should strive to get value at every position, because that allows us to spend more salary at each remaining position. Any time we fill a rotation spot for six years with someone like Drew Smyly, that allows us to maintain a first or second Verlander-type player on our roster.

Someone else made an interesting point that re-signing Sanchez would be a way of picking up a free agent "for free" since we wouldn't have to give up a draft pick. I don't know if Sanchez is good enough under the current CBA to net a draft pick or not, though. But if he is, it's a good thought...we spend our resources in a way that also lets us build for the future.

They gave up Turner. Isn't that like giving up a draft pick?

[ballmich]

Nobody hates Delmon more than me, but he has hit .307/.341/.483 against lefties lifetime, so if you largely limit him to OF duty on days a LHP is on the mound and a pinch hitter otherwise, I'd say that is better than playing a 0.250/15/60 LF with solid to good defense. But it requires you to find an OF with hits righties well to pair with him.

The Reed Johnsons of the world make $1-3 million per year, however. That's quite a haircut from what Young has been making. Eventually he may settle into that role, but it probably takes him a few seasons of struggling to find a job before he succomes to the idea that he's a platoon OF type -- particularly given his age. And if we spend $7 million on him to fit that kind of role, then we are just being terrible fidiciaries of Mr. Illitch's money.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I would definitely take the .250 hitter with good defense that can play every day over the .300 against LHP platoon guy that gets the D taken out of his name to poke fun at how bad his defense is.

It depends largely on the aggregate cost of the two platoon players versus the cost of the defensive guy who can't hit as well as who is practically available to the team at the time the team is being constructed.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

The Reed Johnsons of the world make $1-3 million per year, however. That's quite a haircut from what Young has been making. Eventually he may settle into that role, but it probably takes him a few seasons of struggling to find a job before he succomes to the idea that he's a platoon OF type -- particularly given his age. And if we spend $7 million on him to fit that kind of role, then we are just being terrible fidiciaries of Mr. Illitch's money.

Which is why I suggested something like a $3 MM 1-year salary.

If Delmon doesn't like it or the role, he knows where the door is.

[will the thrill]

It depends largely on the aggregate cost of the two platoon players versus the cost of the defensive guy who can't hit as well as who is practically available to the team at the time the team is being constructed.

with Vmart slipping back into 5th, I'll gladly let Garcia/Boesch/Berry whoever wins it in the spring take Leftfield and take over the 9 spot in the lineup and be more than happy with it. If Garcia can play during the World Series I see no reason why he should be sent back to the minors next season, especially with the Defense he brings

[ballmich]

Are there any Tigers/Players Options out there for the next few weeks?

Peralta: $6M club option ($0.5M buyout)
Dotel: $3.5M club option ($0.5M buyout)

And of course there are a number of free agents to deal with (or not): Valverde, Sanchez, Young, Raburn, Laird, & Leyland.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

If Garcia isn't an everyday player in the majors, I would rather he spend the season in the minors playing everyday, because that is likely what is best for his development. I suspect Avisail isn't ready to be an everyday player in the majors yet.

Quintin Berry is a 5th OF at best. He hit terribly starting July (.224/.285/.314, Post-season: .192/.250/.269) and that was against almost all RHP. The only value he brings is that team is as a pinch runner. In no way would I even considering pencilling him in as part of a starting role on the team.

Brennan Boesch is even worse than Delmon Young.

[irvink]

Lots of good thoughts up here already. Here's what I think will happen/would like to see:

As many have mentioned, the biggest move the Tigers will make (or not) is Anibal Sanchez. I think the bidding on him starts at 4 years/50 mil and could easily end up at 5/75. There is a lot of teams with money to spend right now, a lot of teams need a good SP and there are not many available.

I feel like there is a slightly better than 50% chance that we sign him, but it's no sure thing. If we do sign him, I do think that Porcello is probably moved, though I wouldn't mind seeing Smyly as our 6th man in AAA.

I think the Tigers will -- and absolutely need to -- sign an athletic corner OF. Someone who can play good defense, get on base and ideally have some speed. The solid #2 hitter that we were sorely missing during the postseason. Melky Cabrera is an ideal target. Hunter seems like a possibility as well (the press in LA seems less than optimistic that he'll return given Trout/Bourjos/Trumbo/Morales/Wells). Ideally we could get one of these guys on a 1 year, deal, but I wouldn't oppose a 2 year deal to either. There's obviously the possibility that DD can swing a trade.

I think that Garcia and/or Castellanos both start the season in AAA and one of them will be ready to come up and contribute by June or July. Ideally, this pushes Dirks to 4th OF status and gives us some more depth. I think there's a good shot that both Garcia and Castellanos (assuming none is traded) are on the postseason roster next year, giving us a much deeper bench.

Phil Coke's postseason performance was one of the more inspiring things to watch. Valverde will be gone, but with vets like Coke, Benoit and Dotel (who I assume will be brought back) and promising youngsters like AA, Villareal and Rondon -- I feel pretty good about the pen next year. I think it could be a real strength especially if they (as I suspect) bring in one more veteran arm. I do not see them spending the big $ for Soriano.

I believe Peralta's option will be exercised. I also think that he's a decent fielding SS. However, with Cabrera at 3b, it's just not good enough. Especially if he's only hitting in the 240s with less than 15 HR. I know SS is a very tough position to fill, but I do think we need an upgrade. I found myself wishing we had someone like Brandon Crawford, no matter how light hitting.

Josh Rutledge is a nice idea, but he's only 23 and Colorado is in rebuild mode. He can play 2b well and that's where I expect him to start next season, for the Rockies. If Stephen Drew can be had on the cheap, he could be worth looking at. I love the idea of JJ Hardy, but I'm not sure why Baltimore deals him... Unless they really want to move Machado to SS and Hardy doesn't like the idea of playing 3b. In that case, maybe Peralta (who could shift to 3b) and a prospect or two for Hardy? Hardy plays next year at age 30 and is signed through 2014 at 7 mil per.

Bring back Anibal, a good corner OF, a better fielding SS and a BP piece. Make it happen, DD.

[Jeff6851]

It depends largely on the aggregate cost of the two platoon players versus the cost of the defensive guy who can't hit as well as who is practically available to the team at the time the team is being constructed.

Assuming the combined cost of the two is equal I would take the one guy. Even if he is 3 mil more per year I'd take him because he adds more value by being in the lineup everyday and it keeps a spot open.

[Jeff6851]

Also, Fister and Scherzer need to be locked up before it gets to the point where we're worried about them leaving.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Assuming the combined cost of the two is equal I would take the one guy. Even if he is 3 mil more per year I'd take him because he adds more value by being in the lineup everyday and it keeps a spot open.

I would too, but I'd guess two platoon players is likely going to cost less than one guy who provides the same output.

The question really becomes one of how much is roster inflexibility costing you / flexibility worth to you.

[T&P_Fan]

If Garcia isn't an everyday player in the majors, I would rather he spend the season in the minors playing everyday, because that is likely what is best for his development. I suspect Avisail isn't ready to be an everyday player in the majors yet.

Quintin Berry is a 5th OF at best. He hit terribly starting July (.224/.285/.314, Post-season: .192/.250/.269) and that was against almost all RHP. The only value he brings is that team is as a pinch runner. In no way would I even considering pencilling him in as part of a starting role on the team.

Brennan Boesch is even worse than Delmon Young.

All of this is correct. A guy like Swisher would be nice, but he is going to go to the highest bidder, whom I am sure will pay a ridiculous amount.

The nice part of making the world series is that we essentially eliminate 1 month of the off-season. Holidays will make the next two months fly by and then boom, 6 weeks from spring training.

[TigersSlappy]

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
The early 2013 @BovadaLV World Series odds: Detroit 6-1, Yankees 7-1, Giants 10-1, Nats 12-1,TEX 12-1,Angels 12-1, PHI/STL/CIN/ATL all 14-1.

[T&P_Fan]

I would also be targeting Melky Cabrera.

[Jeff6851]

I would too, but I'd guess two platoon players is likely going to cost less than one guy who provides the same output.

The question really becomes one of how much is roster inflexibility costing you / flexibility worth to you.

I'm sure there are teams that would love to sign him to be DH for them. I'm sure they would be willing to do more years and dollars than that. I just don't think he is really worth it, we know how he is during the regular season.

[will the thrill]

If Garcia isn't an everyday player in the majors, I would rather he spend the season in the minors playing everyday, because that is likely what is best for his development. I suspect Avisail isn't ready to be an everyday player in the majors yet.

Quintin Berry is a 5th OF at best. He hit terribly starting July (.224/.285/.314, Post-season: .192/.250/.269) and that was against almost all RHP. The only value he brings is that team is as a pinch runner. In no way would I even considering pencilling him in as part of a starting role on the team.

Brennan Boesch is even worse than Delmon Young.

vs righties, they're the same person, except i'd even take Brennan's poor defense over Delmons.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I'm sure there are teams that would love to sign him to be DH for them. I'm sure they would be willing to do more years and dollars than that. I just don't think he is really worth it, we know how he is during the regular season.

If there are teams that would love to have Delmon as an everyday player and are willing to pay him accordingly, then I guess it would behoove him to take that offer, because there is no way I could advocate using him in a starting role on this team (or really any decent team, TBH).

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

vs righties, they're the same person, except i'd even take Brennan's poor defense over Delmons.

The only plan I can conceivably get behind that would involve Delmon Young on the Tigers in 2013 is one where he is used almost exclusively against LHP, so the fact Brennan Boesch is equally inept against RHP isn't a selling point to me for Brennan over Delmon.

[azzurri]

I doubt the Tigers can or will re-sign Sanchez for what he's going to demand on the market, but I go all out to try and re-sign him. Go with Verlander/Scherzer/Fister/Sanchez and spot start the hot hand Smyly or Porcello during the season. I think Smyly and Porcello make excellent 6-7-8th inning type relievers. Porcello, in particular, is a ground ball pitcher, which is what is needed in late innings with men on base and a DP needed. We need quality middle inning relievers anyway. Then, after we see how the season is playing out, we can deal Porcello or even Sanchez to fill needs in the stretch run before the trade deadline. It's better to see what the team needs after 3 months than before the season starts.

[KleShreen]

Does anyone think there's a chance that Ilitch goes bananas and we see another huge payroll increase as he sees his time on Earth coming closer to an end in a last-ditch effort to win the World Series? For some reason, I get the idea that Detroit might just push all its chips in and make plays for a majority of the big name FA's that fit the holes needed (maybe even a Hamilton?) in a massive effort to finally get this done and then we see Ilitch either pass on or retire. Not basing that off anything besides a wild idea, but just something that crossed my mind. I feel like I wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit at the top or second on the payroll list for next season.

[Jeff6851]

Does anyone think there's a chance that Ilitch goes bananas and we see another huge payroll increase as he sees his time on Earth coming closer to an end in a last-ditch effort to win the World Series? For some reason, I get the idea that Detroit might just push all its chips in and make plays for a majority of the big name FA's that fit the holes needed (maybe even a Hamilton?) in a massive effort to finally get this done and then we see Ilitch either pass on or retire. Not basing that off anything besides a wild idea, but just something that crossed my mind. I feel like I wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit at the top or second on the payroll list for next season.

And then we come up short because of a lack of role players :(

[ballmich]

Also, Fister and Scherzer need to be locked up before it gets to the point where we're worried about them leaving.

I don't see a reason to lock up Scherzer, at least for a long period of time. It seems to me that he's an injury waiting to happen.

[catswithbats]

A's declined Drew's option. Would anyone like to see him in Detroit?

[irvink]

Angels are exploring trades for Haren and Santana. They are unlikely to exercise their options on either player. If the trade cost is not high, Haren wouldn't be bad on a 1 year deal if the Tigers don't intend on giving Anibal a multi-year deal.

Angels exploring trades for Haren, Santana before option decision is due - CBSSports.com

[irvink]

Not that it's a big surprise, but Stephen Drew is officially a free agent.

Oakland Athletics ‏@Athletics
#Athletics exercise option on Grant Balfour for 2013; decline option on Stephen Drew.

[Jeff6851]

A's declined Drew's option. Would anyone like to see him in Detroit?

It's pretty much a given that Peralta is coming back and then you have Infante so if Drew is willing to be a bench player then sure.

[catswithbats]

Angels are exploring trades for Haren and Santana. They are unlikely to exercise their options on either player. If the trade cost is not high, Haren wouldn't be bad on a 1 year deal if the Tigers don't intend on giving Anibal a multi-year deal.

Angels exploring trades for Haren, Santana before option decision is due - CBSSports.com

I think the main hurdle would be convincing Haren to leave the west coast, because his family lives there.

[PuNk42AE]

Granderson's 15M option was picked up

[pyrotigers]

The only plan I can conceivably get behind that would involve Delmon Young on the Tigers in 2013 is one where he is used almost exclusively against LHP

For me it would be one where the Tigers decided to have some fun at the ballpark and in the spirit of the Nationals president race had a 7th inning stretch 'Delmon Young is publicly beaten' event.

[tiger337]

A's declined Drew's option. Would anyone like to see him in Detroit?

I prefer him to Peralta, but not by a lot. I think he has more upside as a hitter, but he's not a great fielder either.