2012-13 Offseason Discussion

[Nastradamus]

Bobby Cox couldn't. Leyland also didn't handle Delmon nor some of Cabrera's problems. People are going to do what they're going to do. Escobar is a cancer, doesn't matter who the manager is.

Plus, Escobar isn't really that much better than Peralta. Even if he is, it's extremely marginally and not worth the risk.

Delmon and Cabrera caused clubhouse issues that fell under the category of something the manager could control? News to me.

Escobar is better than Peralta, not just short term but long term. He's a better fielder and baserunner, needs for this team and he's under control for 2 extra years, both of which are team options for only 5 mil. He also had an extremely down year for OBP last year, where is normally quite strong. That's another need for this team.

[alwaysthrowheat]

If anyone has the leaders to get him in line, its us though. Cabrera,Vmart and Hunter would be good influences on him I think. Leyland too.

The Braves are a class A organization with veteran leaders. They had a veteran manager, too.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Delmon and Cabrera caused clubhouse issues that fell under the category of something the manager could control? News to me.

Escobar is better than Peralta, not just short term but long term. He's a better fielder and baserunner, needs for this team and he's under control for 2 extra years, both of which are team options for only 5 mil. He also had an extremely down year for OBP last year, where is normally quite strong. That's another need for this team.

Escobar has had two years of a .650 OPS in the last 3. He's an average fielder. Peralta is a tick below average. It's marginal at best, and not worth his childish personality.

The idea that a manager or veteran players can control anyone is news to me. People are going to do what they want to do. I don't care if Leyland, Belichick, Connie Mack, or Phil Jackson is running the team, Escobar is a punk, and he'll always be one.

[qsilvr2531]

Bobby Cox couldn't. Leyland also didn't handle Delmon nor some of Cabrera's problems. People are going to do what they're going to do. Escobar is a cancer, doesn't matter who the manager is.

Plus, Escobar isn't really that much better than Peralta. Even if he is, it's extremely marginally and not worth the risk.

I thought he handled both Young and Cabrera's problems extremely well. I've seen no long last impact on the clubhouse from Cabrera's incidents. Young's incident didn't seem to cause any kind of long (or even short) term distraction for the Tigers either and Young was his usual self (for better or worse) the entire year.

Players are going to do what they are going to do. Getting them to still perform on the field without damaging the clubhouse is the managers job and Leyland does that job well.

I don't think Escobar is enough of an upgrade over Peralta to justify a trade, but I feel that way independent of his clubhouse issues.

[ballmich]

How does downgrading from Laird to Holladay help this team?

Holladay isn't a downgrade. He's the same player at less than 1/2 the cost.

[alwaysthrowheat]

I thought he handled both Young and Cabrera's problems extremely well. I've seen no long last impact on the clubhouse from Cabrera's incidents. Young's incident didn't seem to cause any kind of long (or even short) term distraction for the Tigers either and Young was his usual self (for better or worse) the entire year.

Players are going to do what they are going to do. Getting them to still perform on the field without damaging the clubhouse is the managers job and Leyland does that job well.

I don't think Escobar is enough of an upgrade over Peralta to justify a trade, but I feel that way independent of his clubhouse issues.

My point is that Leyland didn't prevent Cabrera or Young from getting in trouble. He handled the situation, but players are going to get in trouble regardless of who the manager is. That's what I'm trying to get across.

[ballmich]

Bobby Cox couldn't. Leyland also didn't handle Delmon nor some of Cabrera's problems. People are going to do what they're going to do. Escobar is a cancer, doesn't matter who the manager is.

Plus, Escobar isn't really that much better than Peralta. Even if he is, it's extremely marginally and not worth the risk.

That's a gross mischaracterization of Leyland. Did you think that Leyland is using the Patriot Act to monitor all 25 guys 24/7? Handling a player doesn't mean you follow them every second to make sure they aren't doing somethign they shouldn't be. It means that you are managing egos in a clubhouse setting and over the ups and downs of a long season, spring training and hopefuly play-offs.

If anything, other than Esobar making an extremely bad choice, it is an indictment of Farrell's inability to handle his clubhouse. This wasn't something that happened afterhours, and away from the field, where Farrell has no role.

[alwaysthrowheat]

That's a gross mischaracterization of Leyland. Did you think that Leyland is using the Patriot Act to monitor all 25 guys 24/7? Handling a player doesn't mean you follow them every second to make sure they aren't doing somethign they shouldn't be. It means that you are managing egos in a clubhouse setting and over the ups and downs of a long season, spring training and hopefuly play-offs.

If anything, other than Esobar making an extremely bad choice, it is an indictment of Farrell's inability to handle his clubhouse. This wasn't something that happened afterhours, and away from the field, where Farrell has no role.

You're more than welcome to read my above posts where I qualified the statement.

[Casimir]

Scott Hairston might make a nice platoon partner for Dirks to solve the LF questions

I kind of had the thought of Hairston being brought to the club as utility bench player. I was incorrect about the utility part, he hasn't played as much infield in recent seasons as I originally thought. Probably a good platoon option with Dirks, though.

However, the New York Mess appear to be inclined to bring Hairston back. Per mlbtraderumors.com:

•Mets officials think Scott Hairston will get a two-year deal worth between $8-10MM this winter.
•Jason Bay's release from his contract "probably enhances" Scott Hairston's chances of returning to the Mets, Alderson said.

[qsilvr2531]

My point is that Leyland didn't prevent Cabrera or Young from getting in trouble. He handled the situation, but players are going to get in trouble regardless of who the manager is. That's what I'm trying to get across.

I agree players are people and will get in trouble at some point. And I don't care so long as that trouble doesn't spill over to the baseball field. Leyland is good at ensuring the off the field stuff stays off the field (ie they ensure that the off the field stuff does not become a clubhouse issue, which is what happened in both Cabrera and Young's case) and if the Tigers think Escobar or any other player is an upgrade I'm comfortable with their ability to deal withe the off the field issues so the fact that you might characterize Escobar as a clubhouse cancer doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[john doe]

I thought he handled both Young and Cabrera's problems extremely well. I've seen no long last impact on the clubhouse from Cabrera's incidents. Young's incident didn't seem to cause any kind of long (or even short) term distraction for the Tigers either and Young was his usual self (for better or worse) the entire year.

Players are going to do what they are going to do. Getting them to still perform on the field without damaging the clubhouse is the managers job and Leyland does that job well.

I don't think Escobar is enough of an upgrade over Peralta to justify a trade, but I feel that way independent of his clubhouse issues.

Yes, +1

[catswithbats]

Robert Murray@BigLeagueRumors: There could be a deal between the #Cubs and #Tigers involving P Rick Porcello. @georgeofman was told "there is a little smoke here." (link)

No idea how reputable the source is, and George Ofman seems to be a Chicago-based radio host.

[KleShreen]

No idea how reputable the source is, and George Ofman seems to be a Chicago-based radio host.

Who in the world does Chicago have that would be appealing for Porcello, now?

[froggyvk]

Who in the world does Chicago have that would be appealing for Porcello, now?

DeJesus?

[TigersSlappy]

Who in the world does Chicago have that would be appealing for Porcello, now?

Starlin Castro

[benrush]

Who in the world does Chicago have that would be appealing for Porcello, now?

Matt Garza who the Tigers have loved for a while now!

[froggyvk]

Starlin Castro

sounds fair

[froggyvk]

Matt Garza who the Tigers have loved for a while now!

sounds fair

[Shelton]

I promise porcello is not being traded to the cubs.

[tiger337]

not unless the Cubs have a hard throwing AA reliever with control problems

[Nastradamus]

The Cubs have a very good double play combo, Porcello could be a steal for them. Yes, they are rebuilding, but Theo wants pitching for right now too. Its their #1 goal this offseason

[john doe]

not unless the Cubs have a hard throwing AA reliever with control problems

Ofman was "suggesting" various Cubs trade ideas for Porcello months ago. Twitter / georgeofman: Garza for Procello didn't fly. ...

[froggyvk]

The Cubs have a very good double play combo, Porcello could be a steal for them. Yes, they are rebuilding, but Theo wants pitching for right now too. Its their #1 goal this offseason

In Wrigley Field also, getting a ground ball pitcher under team control through 2015 might be a risk worth taking for them. I stand by my earlier suggestion of DeJesus for Porcello. If the Tigers are still looking at outfielders, and the rumored interest in Ross suggests they are, DeJesus makes sense. He'll make $4.25M in 2013 with a $6.25M team option for 2014. .263/.350/.403 makes sense out of the No. 2 spot so you can bat Hunter 6th.

[Gehringer_2]

I could see them use infante as dirks platoon mate with worth or santiago playing 2b those days.

I see Santiago as an early season DFA, contract or no.

[benrush]

In Wrigley Field also, getting a ground ball pitcher under team control through 2015 might be a risk worth taking for them. I stand by my earlier suggestion of DeJesus for Porcello. If the Tigers are still looking at outfielders, and the rumored interest in Ross suggests they are, DeJesus makes sense. He'll make $4.25M in 2013 with a $6.25M team option for 2014. .263/.350/.403 makes sense out of the No. 2 spot so you can bat Hunter 6th.

I'm pretty confident Dirks can put up that production or at least similar production and you have him at a robust 500 K contract

[TheCouga]

In Wrigley Field also, getting a ground ball pitcher under team control through 2015 might be a risk worth taking for them. I stand by my earlier suggestion of DeJesus for Porcello. If the Tigers are still looking at outfielders, and the rumored interest in Ross suggests they are, DeJesus makes sense. He'll make $4.25M in 2013 with a $6.25M team option for 2014. .263/.350/.403 makes sense out of the No. 2 spot so you can bat Hunter 6th.

If we can't get way more than DeJesus for Porcello, there's no point in trading him.

I'm hoping this is Porcello/Castellanos for Castro.

[tiger337]

I see Santiago as an early season DFA, contract or no.

I think he'll be in better shape next year after playing winter ball. He sat out the winter last year for the first time.

[Los Gatos]

DeJesus is essentially unusable against LHP, which is an area the Tigers supposedly have wanted to improve. I guess you could platoon him with someone like Ross, but I like Dirks better moving forward anyway. Plus the Tigers can't trade Porcello unless they have a lock on a better SP (Sanchez or someone else). And if they do market Porcello, I'd hope they could do better than DeJesus.

[benrush]

not unless the Cubs have a hard throwing AA reliever with control problems

They have one of those guys on the roster their trying to dump!

[Tim Mitchell]

Seems like Garza would be a little pricey?
Money has got to start becoming a serious consideration.

[Casimir]

Berry and boesch are terrible. Garcia will start the year in aa and is nowhere near ready for the majors, and raburn will be non tendered.

The question boils down to how they feel about dirks as the full time left fielder, or if they would prefer that he is the 4th of.

I expect them to rely on dirks and try to find a right handed bench outfielder. I could see them keep berry on the team for pinch running as a backup cf.

I could see them use infante as dirks platoon mate with worth or santiago playing 2b those days.

Personally I would rather Dirks start vs lefties rather than Santiago, but I could see the Tigers doing what you mention. Infante as the right handed hitting LF is an interesting option if the Tigers could find a better 2B option than Santiago.

How many lives does Ryan Raburn have? Is he the fallback option as the RH hitting LF? Assuming a straight righty vs lefty & lefty vs right platoon, and having the lefty hitter in the fold already for the majority of the starts, is it worth gambling on Raburn's 2012 being an outlier and just starting out 2013 with him in Detroit if he shows reasonably well in Lakeland?

[Shelton]

I feel like I need to clarify something.

Santiago is garbage and I don't expect him to last the year on the team, even if he makes it at all.

The reference to him was only due to his current status on the roster and his existing 2013 contract. If he is on the team, he's going to get some starts from time to time.

I expect worth to get the greater amount of playing time.

The poit of my post was merely to illustrate that infante could play left field against lefty pitchers I they wanted to bench dirks on those days, because we currently have two backup second base options that can swing right handed.

[Casimir]

I feel like I need to clarify something.

Santiago is garbage and I don't expect him to last the year on the team, even if he makes it at all.

The reference to him was only due to his current status on the roster and his existing 2013 contract. If he is on the team, he's going to get some starts from time to time.

I expect worth to get the greater amount of playing time.

The poit of my post was merely to illustrate that infante could play left field against lefty pitchers I they wanted to bench dirks on those days, because we currently have two backup second base options that can swing right handed.

I kind of figured that is what you meant. I didn't think you would be in favor of Santiago over Dirks vs lefties. But I understand that that might be what the Tigers would consider, which is what you were getting at.

I hadn't thought of Worth, but I would still rather see Dirks in LF and Infante at 2B vs lefties, occassional days off excluded.

[froggyvk]

Spoartspoartspoarts!!! | PEDs and You: The Benefits of Cheating

One of my coworkers from the 2011 season wrote this piece that has since been picked up by NBC and CBS Sports. He's by no means a professional writer, but it's worth your time and a very interesting read.

[ballmich]

not unless the Cubs have a hard throwing AA reliever with control problems

It's way too early in the morning to push my buttons like this.

[ballmich]

I'm hoping this is Porcello/Castellanos for Castro.

That is a significant over-pay. If we signed Sanchez, I suppose a Porcello for Castro deal could make some sense. But you'd also have to have a secondary deal already lined up to deal Peralta. Seems awfully unlikely to me.

I wouldn't trade Castellanos 1-for-1 to get Castro.

[cruzer1]

That is a significant over-pay. If we signed Sanchez, I suppose a Porcello for Castro deal could make some sense. But you'd also have to have a secondary deal already lined up to deal Peralta. Seems awfully unlikely to me.

I wouldn't trade Castellanos 1-for-1 to get Castro.

I would, in a heartbeat. Castro is much better than Castellanos, and plays a much more important role on defense. I would pay more than Castellanos to get Castro, it would probably cost more than that.

[ballmich]

DeJesus is a very nice complimentary player. But he's expensive and redundant given we have Dirks who will make around $500k.

Also, DeJesus is a guy you have to strictly platoon at this stage of his career. Against LHP, his OPS in 2011 was .459 and it was .438 in 2012. So again, very redundant with Dirks.

If you get another OF, he has to be a RHB that could platoon with Dirks. I think Bay is a decent gamble. But I also wouldn't mind keeping Raburn around for that role either.

[ballmich]

I would, in a heartbeat. Castro is much better than Castellanos, and plays a much more important role on defense. I would pay more than Castellanos to get Castro, it would probably cost more than that.

Castro is a good player, but way over-rated for what he actually provides. Quality pitching is just as important as shortstop.

[Los Gatos]

Castro might be a little overrated relative to his offensive production and defensive lapses, but he still has good value and great upside based on his talent and age - turns 23 in March - and position. Putting him on a team like the Tigers where he wouldn't be expected to carry the offense could pay big dividends, along with (hopefully) natural maturity. He just signed a 7-year extension in August so it seems the Cubs are committed to him, but at $60 million for that length, it's not horrible value right now and could become a bargain. If memory serves, there was talk of a Granderson-Castro deal a few years ago, so he might still be on the Tigers' radar. But from the Cubs' point of view, I think it would take a pretty big deal to pry him away because of the points above and the hole at SS it would create.