2012-13 Offseason Discussion

[Shelton]

When the city finances a stadium, what is the actual tax hit on a person? How much are we talking here? Miami has a population 400,000 people I believe. The park cost $515 million and the Marlins paid $125M of that. So that leaves us with $390M to be covered by the city of miami and miami dade county. Miami dade county has a population of 2.5M.

Breakdown of the cost:
390M/400,000=$975/person
390M/2.5M=$156/person

So what is more accurate, how are these stadiums actually taxed when it comes to the resident paying for the construction cost?

Edit: And I would have to assume the tax payers were hit with more than 390M after interest, fees and other costs.

In this case, as is the case with many publicly financed stadiums, most of the cost is covered by tourist taxes, such as on hotels and rental cars.

[Johnny Mac]

Haven't been on in ages but wanted to weigh in on the signing. Our lineup has a lot of question marks next year. A lot of guys who have been "inconsistent" last few years

Torii hit .313 16/92 last year but .262 23/82 year before. that is a .51 pt difference in batting average
Avila hit .295 19/82 two years ago but only .243 9/48 last year. that is a .52 pt difference in batting average
Jackson hit .300 16/66 last year but .249 10/45 the year before. that is a .51 pt difference in batting average
Jhonny hit .299 21/86 two years ago but .239 13/63 last year. that is a .60 pt differenc in batting average

To a lesser extent Dirks (with limited AB) - .322 8/35 last year but .251 7/28 year before. .71 pt difference in average

thats over half our starters who last two years have had .50+ point differences in batting average. And another starter is coming off a season without playing a game.

I would expect Omar to hit in the .270s and Miguel and Prince to do what they do, but I think the rest of the lineup is full of question marks.

[T&P_Fan]

In this case, as is the case with many publicly financed stadiums, most of the cost is covered by tourist taxes, such as on hotels and rental cars.

So all of those most be projected costs than. So if tourism is down the taxes on hotels and rental cars go up.

Real interesting stuff.

[ROMAD1]

Backup C, and a starter are next...

Unless its Holaday at C and Porcello and Smiley...which isn't too bad. I like Laird's Defense and game calling though...might hope to see him back.

[MC24]

Tony Paul ‏@TonyPaul1984

Jim Bowden, who was first on the #Tigers pursuit of Hunter, now says the #Tigers are looking at another outfielder: Cody Ross.

[CapitalTigers]

Tony Paul ‏@TonyPaul1984

I'd like to see Ross here. LOVE the Hunter signing.

Absolutely appreciate Mr. Illitch more than words can express for a baseball owner.

[Yoda]

If they have to sign Ross also, then you really have to look at the Tigers inability to develop a corner OFer. This is ridiculous. I happen to think Dirks will do just fine until Castellanos/Garcia are ready.

[theroundsquare]

Bowden's tweet was from last night. That *could* mean that the Tigers had viewed Ross as a backup plan for Hunter.

[tiger337]

No need to sign Ross when they have Dirks. If they get an outfielder it will either be a big name or a platoon guy (which Ross won't want to do).

[will the thrill]

I don't think the trade is that bad. Its not all that different from them not having signed the Buehrle and Reyes last year and flipping Johnson for prospects. I wonder if they will spend any of the money at all. That's a factor as well. Toronto is looking good either way though.

how do you spend the money when you just traded away everyone you signed last year? nobody worth the money is going to sign there without a no-trade. Seems Pujols was the only one who saw through the BS last winter

[sabretooth]

Ross is basically a better version of Ryan Raburn. He can certainly demolish LHP and fields decently enough...if he's on he's also decent enough against RHP to be a regular or semi-regular. I would not be opposed to getting him, but folks should not expect him to repeat what he did in 2012, that was a bit of an up-year for him, and he's turning 33.

[benrush]

Ross is basically a better version of Ryan Raburn. He can certainly demolish LHP and fields decently enough...if he's on he's also decent enough against RHP to be a regular or semi-regular. I would not be opposed to getting him, but folks should not expect him to repeat what he did in 2012, that was a bit of an up-year for him, and he's turning 33.

Reed Johnson is a cheaper option and could probably be had on a one year deal.

[tiger337]

Speaking of Cody Ross, Twitter is getting fun:

Cody Ross ‏@IamCodyRoss “@Giancarlo818: Alright, I'm pissed off!!! Plain & Simple” What's new?

[irvink]

Tony Paul was referencing a Jim Bowden tweet that came yesterday, before the Hunter signing.

On another note, I just read that Miami intends on starting Hechevarria at SS this spring and moving Escobar to 3b or (more likely) trading him.

Escobar is set to make 5 mil in 13, with 5 million dollar team options on him in 2014 and 15. Even in a down offensive year in 2012, he was still worth 2.5 bWAR, most of that coming from the glove. In comparison, Peralta was worth .8 last year and .7 in 2010 (but 3.5 in 2011).

Escobar is obviously a bit of a headcase, but could be an interesting trade candidate if the Tigers want to upgrade at SS for cheap. Peralta should not be too hard to spin off if this were to happen.

[sabretooth]

Reed Johnson is a cheaper option and could probably be had on a one year deal.

The problem with Reed Johnson is that he's now a pretty bad fielder, even in the corner OF spots, and has zero power. He does hit some singles against LHP. He's basically Delmon Young without power at this point. We can do better without breaking the bank.

[macedonian bengal]

Scott Hairston might make a nice platoon partner for Dirks to solve the LF questions...so could Melky Cabrera, or Shane Victorino, both on better, bargain deals than the Swishers, Hamilton, Bourns, the Uptons whowhatev...
As far guys with baggage or bad attitudez...i scoff.
Melky, Yunel Escobar will walk into a wall of intolerance of bs from Leyland, his coaches VMart, and Miggy .and now Torii...im not worried ..what a bunch of media darlings our Tigers are becoming...thru and thru.. Leylands specializing in " attitudez" and drama before...this team is built for taking exactly these types of risks imo.
The pay off of adding positive production from Melky, and Escobar , ad well as the trade off of flipping Peralta for another useful piece could pay huge dividends and be a key difference maker between this past offseason and next year .
I believe ...

[benrush]

The problem with Reed Johnson is that he's now a pretty bad fielder, even in the corner OF spots, and has zero power. He does hit some singles against LHP. He's basically Delmon Young without power at this point. We can do better without breaking the bank.

Agree, however the more I think about it DD has never shown a willingness to pick up free agent bench players or platoon options. He's traded for a few but I have a stange feeling they probably stay internal and likely ride it out for a while with four outfielders, a backup catcher, DH and infielder. They usually leave the door open for internal options, not saying I agree but what history has shown.

[mmwatkin]

By my math, the Tigers' payroll is at $140M. Pretty crazy

[TheCouga]

I'd like to see Ross here. LOVE the Hunter signing.

I like the Hunter signing. But I like it even more if they sign Ross. Initially, I wanted them to go big and go after Hamilton, but if they use Hamilton money to get two guys instead of one, I think that's a really prudent move. First of all, the risk is distributed among two players, not one. So if one gets injured, you still have the other guy. Second of all, the commitment in terms of years is much less, so again the risk is mitigated.

Improving on both corner OF positions also improves our WAR in two needed areas--not as much at each one individually had we gone after Hamilton, but enough at both combined that it equals adding a Hamilton-level bat cumulatively. Of course, with much less risk.

[sabretooth]

I like the Hunter signing. But I like it even more if they sign Ross. Initially, I wanted them to go big and go after Hamilton, but if they use Hamilton money to get two guys instead of one, I think that's a really prudent move. First of all, the risk is distributed among two players, not one. So if one gets injured, you still have the other guy. Second of all, the commitment in terms of years is much less, so again the risk is mitigated.

Improving on both corner OF positions also improves our WAR in two needed areas--not as much at each one individually had we gone after Hamilton, but enough at both combined that it equals adding a Hamilton-level bat cumulatively. Of course, with much less risk.

Generally speaking, the Tigers have done a good job of avoiding black-hole positions.....I *still* don't understand what possessed them to put Raburn at 2B, then to leave him there for so long last year....I at least understood Delmon at DH and Boesch in RF, even if they were not good players they could at least hold their own, but the way they stuck with Boesch was ridiculous too.

I agree that Ross would be a good bet to keep a position from being a black hole...and he would definitely be a lefty-killer...not sure if he'd like a platoon/semi-regular situation, though, especially after his "up" year in 2012.

[TigersSlappy]

Mark Bowman ‏@mlbbowman
Sounds like the Braves are close to reaching an agreement with veteran catcher Gerald Laird.

[Yoda]

Good for Laird, in a non-sarcastic way. Hope he gets what he wants, but I don't expect him to be of much value as a starter.

[TigersSlappy]

Good for Laird, in a non-sarcastic way. Hope he gets what he wants, but I don't expect him to be of much value as a starter.

Yep, I harbor no ill will for Laird. He seems to be a nice guy, is a competent back up catcher and who could blame him for wanting a chance to start or play more?

[TigersSlappy]

Sounds like a done deal now.

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

#Braves in agreement with Laird to be their new backup catcher. @MLBBowman first reported deal was close.

[Nastradamus]

I'm glad he won't be back. He did a good job for us but I am hoping we snag a guy like Shoppach or someone who can hit lefties. If its Holladay, I'll live

[chasfh]

We got more out of Gerald Laird this year than I thought was possible.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Tony Paul was referencing a Jim Bowden tweet that came yesterday, before the Hunter signing.

On another note, I just read that Miami intends on starting Hechevarria at SS this spring and moving Escobar to 3b or (more likely) trading him.

Escobar is set to make 5 mil in 13, with 5 million dollar team options on him in 2014 and 15. Even in a down offensive year in 2012, he was still worth 2.5 bWAR, most of that coming from the glove. In comparison, Peralta was worth .8 last year and .7 in 2010 (but 3.5 in 2011).

Escobar is obviously a bit of a headcase, but could be an interesting trade candidate if the Tigers want to upgrade at SS for cheap. Peralta should not be too hard to spin off if this were to happen.

Escobar is a clubhouse cancer. No thanks.

[Shelton]

I expect the tigers to sign Sanchez, given that illitch appears to want it to happen and the increased national tv revenue everyone is getting.

[ballmich]

No need to sign Ross when they have Dirks. If they get an outfielder it will either be a big name or a platoon guy (which Ross won't want to do).

Ross is definately overkill, and not a good use of resources, in my opinion. I would have been fine with Ross, if we had not signed Hunter though.

Hard for me to believe we would not be set in one of the corner OF spots between the likes of Dirks, Berry, Boesch, Raburn, and Garcia. Particularly with Castellanos potentially ready in 2013 or 2014.

[ballmich]

Laird going to the Braves was a bullet dodged.

[Shelton]

Ross is definately overkill, and not a good use of resources, in my opinion. I would have been fine with Ross, if we had not signed Hunter though.

Hard for me to believe we would not be set in one of the corner OF spots between the likes of Dirks, Berry, Boesch, Raburn, and Garcia. Particularly with Castellanos potentially ready in 2013 or 2014.

Berry and boesch are terrible. Garcia will start the year in aa and is nowhere near ready for the majors, and raburn will be non tendered.

The question boils down to how they feel about dirks as the full time left fielder, or if they would prefer that he is the 4th of.

I expect them to rely on dirks and try to find a right handed bench outfielder. I could see them keep berry on the team for pinch running as a backup cf.

I could see them use infante as dirks platoon mate with worth or santiago playing 2b those days.

[qsilvr2531]

In this case, as is the case with many publicly financed stadiums, most of the cost is covered by tourist taxes, such as on hotels and rental cars.

Cincinnati used a sales tax increase to finance their two stadiums on the river. Yes I'm still bitter about it.

[RatkoVarda]

Laird going to the Braves was a bullet dodged.

How does downgrading from Laird to Holladay help this team?

[redshark63]

Rotoworld Baseball ‏@Rotoworld_BB Selig says 12-player trade is 'under review' http://dlvr.it/2Tzz28

[qsilvr2531]

Escobar is a clubhouse cancer. No thanks.

One of the things I like about Leyland is that I don't worry to much about a player being a clubhouse cancer. If he's good enough to help the team on the field I'm confident that Leyland can handle the clubhouse issues.

[Shelton]

Cincinnati used a sales tax increase to finance their two stadiums on the river. Yes I'm still bitter about it.

That seems like a perfectly cromulent way to finance a stadium.

[STLTiger69]

One of the things I like about Leyland is that I don't worry to much about a player being a clubhouse cancer. If he's good enough to help the team on the field I'm confident that Leyland can handle the clubhouse issues.

I think Dombrowski and Leyland don't go shopping for troubled players period. Notice they got Miggy in rehab and Delmon Young isn't playing with the Tigers anymore. Then there is smaller stuff like just last year that included the Jeff Baker's retrade and Ryan Raburn being sent HOME in the middle of a critical penant run for god knows what.

And talent wise I think Escobar is less like Miguel Cabrera and more like Ryan Raburn and the Tigers already got Peralta at SS that has not given the Tigers any issues in the past.

[alwaysthrowheat]

One of the things I like about Leyland is that I don't worry to much about a player being a clubhouse cancer. If he's good enough to help the team on the field I'm confident that Leyland can handle the clubhouse issues.

Bobby Cox couldn't. Leyland also didn't handle Delmon nor some of Cabrera's problems. People are going to do what they're going to do. Escobar is a cancer, doesn't matter who the manager is.

Plus, Escobar isn't really that much better than Peralta. Even if he is, it's extremely marginally and not worth the risk.

[Nastradamus]

Escobar is a clubhouse cancer. No thanks.

If anyone has the leaders to get him in line, its us though. Cabrera,Vmart and Hunter would be good influences on him I think. Leyland too.

[ROMAD1]

Escobar is a clubhouse cancer. No thanks.

The Marlins and Miami's LGBT community deserve Escobar.