2012-13 Offseason Discussion

[RatkoVarda]

Stay away, far away because the Angels are putting all their eggs into the Greinke basket?

According to Haren's agent, he's healthy.

If the Angels sign Greinke, they will have Weaver-Greinke-Wilson(coming off surgery)-J Williams (yuck)-G Richards(yuck).
They still need another starter, and to me, to seems very odd they would pass on a short 1-year deal for $12m for the guy who used to be Dan Haren.
And I would expect his agent to scream that he's healthy until someone finds out differently.

[chasfh]

Eh, the Cardinals survived letting Pujols walk for nothing.

Remember, too, that Pujols walked because he went after the money, so he ended up looking disloyal to Carinals Nation. Fans wouldn't rake the team for that. That's not the same thing as trading the reigning MVP after a Triple Crown year for a top prospect.

We'd be fine if we got the right deal. Especially if it was under new ownership and we couldn't afford the same payroll level.

Whoa, whoa, wait -- is Ilitch selling? Really? Because that's a whole new and different wild card variable injected into the equation. My point is that this front office wouldn't make that deal. Bring in an entirely new front office, populated by any possible personality type in the world, and you can speculate anything happening.

It would be pretty insane to see what Cabrera and JV would bring in trade.

I'd love to know that, too. It's almost like speculating what you could sell the Mona Lisa for on the open market. It's a priceless work of art and you would never sell it, so speculating on its price is almost futile. Contemplating a return on Cabrera in trade is sort of the same thing: it's almost futile to speculate on it because no one is asking that question in the marketplace.

[will the thrill]

We weren't talking about fat old Miguel Cabrera in 2020. That guy does not get traded for a top three prospect. We were talking about Top Of His Game Miguel Cabrera, today's Miggy.

Even if we got a top three prospect, I don't see trading our Cabrera without the front office getting an non-stop earful of **** from the media and the fans, unless the kid performs like Cabrera himself, which is not likely. They could lose the fans for years after a trade debacle like that. That's why I think this front office never makes that trade.

The only way you can pull it of without losing the fans is if he won't sign an extension and publicly turns down a really high dollar offer. But I also think to be smart it's the kind of thing where you need a average at worst replacement in the trade and the top 3 guy to be able to win over the fans about the deal.

And the front office will get that earful either way, if they sign him to 5 years 30 million at age 34, they'll tell them how bad the deal is, if they trade him or let him walk, they'll call them idiots for letting him walk or not getting enough in the deal

[tiger337]

18 pages and nothing has happened yet.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

You hate that there is no action because you love Granderson.

[Shelton]

18 pages and nothing has happened yet.

I don't think that nothing has happened yet. I enjoy following the progression of the thread. Not every thread has to be a big story.

[tiger337]

I wasn't being critical. I like these kinds of threads.

[Shinzaki]

When are they going to get to the fireworks factory?

[Jeff6851]

How do you "replace" Cabrera? Not very many .300, 35hr, 120RBI guys down in AAA.
Id rather not think about losing him or Verlander. We have been spoiled as Tiger fans having both of them. Id like to keep it that way.

Well you don't replace him with one person except in the field. But if you can get prospects that can run, hit, defend and are young then it would be a good move. If you could get two guys like that then I'd be all for trading Cabrera.

Keep in mind this is for when he has one left in his contract (or 1.5 if the tigers look out of it the year before) and he doesn't look like he'll come back.

[Tigers4F4]

Scottwood,

I wouldn't mind another look at Brandon Lyon also. Is he available? He shouldn't have been let go of before IMO.

[ballmich]

The problem becomes when Cabrera is 37 and he hits .280-25-90 and still looks productive, but he's still batting 3rd every day because he's Miguel Cabrera, similar to the Braves of the last 4 years where Chipper still batter mostly 4th even though his production didn't warrant it.

Just to set the record straight on Chipper, his production clearly warranted batting 3rd or 4th in that line-up, when playing. By most measures he was their best offensive player. And 25% of his PA's came batting 6th-9th. I think we can all agree that he was the player he was 7-8 years ago, but in context of the others in the line-up, he was perfectly suited to bat where he did.

[Nastradamus]

Remember, too, that Pujols walked because he went after the money, so he ended up looking disloyal to Carinals Nation. Fans wouldn't rake the team for that. That's not the same thing as trading the reigning MVP after a Triple Crown year for a top prospect.



Whoa, whoa, wait -- is Ilitch selling? Really? Because that's a whole new and different wild card variable injected into the equation. My point is that this front office wouldn't make that deal. Bring in an entirely new front office, populated by any possible personality type in the world, and you can speculate anything happening.



I'd love to know that, too. It's almost like speculating what you could sell the Mona Lisa for on the open market. It's a priceless work of art and you would never sell it, so speculating on its price is almost futile. Contemplating a return on Cabrera in trade is sort of the same thing: it's almost futile to speculate on it because no one is asking that question in the marketplace.

Can't say I agree with much of this. Illitch isn't selling, but he might die. I'm sure Chris Illitch is a great guy, but he's also a businessman and the current model is not good business. He would probably operate with a lesser payroll or sell the team IMO. Who knows if he even has a passion for baseball.

I do not, for one second, think we would trade JV or Cabby any time soon. I also do not think though, that its something that is futile to discuss or something that could never realistically happen. The extensions those 2 will get have high potential to turn into bad contracts.

Pujols leaving for the money is a bit of a myth. He offered to take much less to stay in St.Louis, they probably could have had him for 50-75 mil less and they decided to move on because they felt it prudent. They got away with it because they kept winning. If they had a ****** year this year, they'd have been crucified in the media, period.

I mean, it all depends what the offer is in the end. If Texas offered something like Beltre,Profar and Holland, I'd be hard pressed not to pull the trigger.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I mean, it all depends what the offer is in the end. If Texas offered something like Beltre,Profar and Holland, I'd be hard pressed not to pull the trigger.

Would Texas offer something like that? Florida didn't get that for Cabrera and he was entering his hitting prime rather than exiting it.

[TigersSlappy]

Would Texas offer something like that? Florida didn't get that for Cabrera and he was entering his hitting prime rather than exiting it.

Florida management didn't possess the persuasive power of MTS.

[Jeff6851]

Florida management didn't possess the persuasive power of MTS.

Florida got 7 of our best prospects and we took Willis off their hands.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Florida got 7 of our best prospects and we took Willis off their hands.

Florida got 2 top 10 prospects (in all of baseball) and a lot of not much else.

Florida could have simply non-tendered Willis, so Detroit taking Dontrelle off of their hands provided no value to the Marlins.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Florida got 2 top 10 prospects (in all of baseball) and a lot of not much else.

Florida could have simply non-tendered Willis, so Detroit taking Dontrelle off of their hands provided no value to the Marlins.

I think at the time, Trahern and De La Cruz were top 6-7 in the Tigers org. Which I think says more about the Tigers org than anything else.

[ballmich]

Badenhop is right up there as the one of the better players of that bunch. Mediocre relievers can be under-rated. And amazingly, as soon as he goes to Tampa Bay, he becomes all that much better. I don't know what it is about relievers and Tampa and San Diego... but if you are a FA reliever, THAT is where you want to sign.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I think at the time, Trahern and De La Cruz were top 6-7 in the Tigers org. Which I think says more about the Tigers org than anything else.

Yeah - this was my point - getting the top 6 or 7 prospects from an org isn't as impressive a haul as it sounds when 5 of them aren't highly regarded.

Did anyone think Mike Rabello was the s***?

[A.J.K.]

Mets are supposedly discussing Dickey in trade talks.

Mets Discussing R.A. Dickey In Trades: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

I'm sure it would cost way too much to get him, but I'd love having him on the team just because I love knuckleballers.

Remember that home run barrage the Tigers hit off him in '06 when he was pitching for Texas? I think Chris Shelton hit 3 that game on his way to BabeRuthForTwoWeeksville.

[froggyvk]

Badenhop is right up there as the one of the better players of that bunch. Mediocre relievers can be under-rated. And amazingly, as soon as he goes to Tampa Bay, he becomes all that much better. I don't know what it is about relievers and Tampa and San Diego... but if you are a FA reliever, THAT is where you want to sign.

I think much of it comes down to Tampa Bay simply using them correctly. Clay Rapada isn't a very good pitcher, and the 2.82 ERA makes him look better than he is because Girardi used him as the left-handed specialist he should be (70 games, 38.1 IP). Badenhop has a great sinker and his 74.2 ground ball pct. ranked 6th-highest among NL relievers in 2011, and he also only allowed 1 HR in 63.2 innings. The Rays recognized this and brought him in to fill the role of ground ball specialist, someone who can come in with a runner on and face one batter and get a potential double play ball to end the threat. Badenhop had a 7.20 ERA at the end of April because he uncharacteristically allowed a few HR but had a 2.24 ERA from the start of May through the end of the season.

[TigersSlappy]

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm

The rumor of a Justin Upton deal to Det in a package that included Castellanos, A.Garcia & Smyly definitely makes sense if Dbacks add piece

[Yoda]

They better add a piece! I don't like that trade as it is.

[Yoda]

Also, they can't trade Smyly without signing Sanchez first, unless Arizona sends us a starting pitcher.

[TigerNation]

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm

The rumor of a Justin Upton deal to Det in a package that included Castellanos, A.Garcia & Smyly definitely makes sense if Dbacks add piece

Not really sure how to feel about Upton.

Obviously very talented, only has 20+ HRs in one of the last three seasons, and he is a career .250/.325/.406 hitter away from Chase Field.

Still young obviously, and maybe being traded to a contender and playing with hitters like Cabrera and Fielder could help him tap into and come closer to reaching his potential, but it's tough.

Trading for Upton would be high risk high reward.

[TigersSlappy]

They better add a piece! I don't like that trade as it is.

We could throw in Leyland for Gibby?

[ballmich]

Also, they can't trade Smyly without signing Sanchez first, unless Arizona sends us a starting pitcher.

Bauer is DD's kind of pitcher.

[TigersSlappy]

Bauer is DD's kind of pitcher.

That thought had crossed my mind too, supposedly Bauer's on the block too.

[tiger337]

Bauer is DD's kind of pitcher.

True and I can see him pursuing a high risk high upside guy like Upton.

[Scottwood]

Deal makes sense for Arizona. Castellanos shifts to 3B for Arizona which is what they have a need for, Garcia takes over long term for Upton in the OF and Smyly probably has more value than Porcello due to his K totals and being under control for 5 more years.

[Los Gatos]

I'd love to see Justin Upton on the Tigers, and if they could swing Bauer, too, fabulous. I'd much rather see Porcello go than Smyly, but to get both of those guys, you'd have to give up pretty much whatever Arizona asks for. The key for AZ considering Castellanos a cornerstone of that kind of deal would seem to be if they think he can handle 3B in the majors. If not, Texas is probably more likely centering a deal around Andrus or Profar for SS.

[irvink]

Rosenthal just posted something that makes me think the Bowden tweet was more speculation than rumor...

One executive suggests the Detroit Tigers as a possible darkhorse for Upton. The Diamondbacks want a shortstop or a third baseman, and the Tigers could offer third-base prospect Nick Castellanos and a combination of other players, including right fielder Avisail Garcia and pitchers Rick Porcello and Drew Smyly.

I am not suggesting that the Tigers would trade any or all of those players for Upton; it’s just one exec’s speculation. But the Tigers at least have the players to make such a deal happen, and Dave Dombrowski is one of the game’s boldest, most aggressive GMs.

Assorted notes from the GM meetings - Yardbarker

If there is any truth to the rumor I do think Bauer coming back to Detroit could make sense.

[John_Brian_K]

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm

The rumor of a Justin Upton deal to Det in a package that included Castellanos, A.Garcia & Smyly definitely makes sense if Dbacks add piece

That DEF does NOT make sense. That would be giving up WAY too much IMO.

Upton is a solid, solid player and still young, but giving up those pieces would be foolish IMO.

[STLTiger69]

That DEF does NOT make sense. That would be giving up WAY too much IMO.

Upton is a solid, solid player and still young, but giving up those pieces would be foolish IMO.

First blush: yea, I hate the talk of this deal a lot too.

Castellanos, Garcia and Smyly are three guys with lots of cost savings and lots of team control years left to go. Upton is under contract through 2015 BUT he is owed $38M in total over the next three years. Bauer has some good minor league numbers but Smyly isn't too bad either with his minor league numbers.

Smyly for Bauer is probably a wash at best (although if it's Porcello instead I'd be willing to listen) and to me Castellanos AND Garcia is too much to do when the Tigers can go find another corner outfielder on the FA market instead for $10-$13M a year that will not cost 2 or 3 young players to get.

[tiger337]

DBacks beat writer makes it sound as the Tigers are legitimately pursuing Upton:

@NickPiecoro:
I'm told the Tigers are doing due diligence on Upton, doing background work on him. Don't know if they've talked specifics with Dbacks.

[TurnerHasHYPE]

Bauer has 10x more potential than Smyly. That's definitely not a wash.

[TigerNation]

Bauer has 10x more potential than Smyly. That's definitely not a wash.

True, his strikeout numbers are terrific, but damn are those walks concerning.

Smyly, at this point, is a safe bet to at least be a solid big league starter for a couple of years, his upside may be limited, but his floor is pretty high at this point.

Bauers floor is something like Andrew Miller, i.e. being absolutely useless.

[irvink]

That DEF does NOT make sense. That would be giving up WAY too much IMO.

Upton is a solid, solid player and still young, but giving up those pieces would be foolish IMO.

I agree with this. I'd much rather see the Tigers sign Melky, Hunter or Swisher than trade their 3 best young players for Upton.

If you're trading those players, it's bc you believe Upton will be a 6 WAR superstar for the next 3 years and I'm not sure how you can believe that. The Tigers don't really even need a superstar corner OF, they just need a solid regular.

If we are going to move Castellanos +, I'd much rather it be for Andrus. Great SS are very hard to find... Corner OFs who with a 2.5 2012 fWAR... Not so much.

[ballmich]

Bauer has 10x more potential than Smyly. That's definitely not a wash.

He is also pretty unlikely to achieve it, whereas Smyly has very little downside and has already done well in 100 major league innings.

I personally would take Smyly over Bauer without thinking twice. That's an easy call, despite Bauer's upside.

[TigerNation]

He is also pretty unlikely to achieve it, whereas Smyly has very little downside and has already done well in 100 major league innings.

I personally would take Smyly over Bauer without thinking twice. That's an easy call, despite Bauer's upside.

Agreed, I'm not a fan of people with control problems in the minors.