A tip of the cap to Delmon Young

**drownwithyou** · 10-17-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

If you could generate one like that for A-Roid I would love to see that.

You'd be surprised

Alex Rodriguez Batting Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

edit: Man STL is fast with those!

**STLTiger69** · 10-17-2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

So Cano has a .700 OPS in 200 post-season AB and Delmon has an 0.820 OPS in 90 AB and I am supposed to overlook the difference in regular season performance and defense?

Also, the difference in OPS is largely due to slugging. .120 of slugging over 200 AB is 24 total bases. Not to knock 24 total bases, but it isn't the end all be all.

Biggs, lol...calm down!

Yes, I'd rather have Cano for a full season and let Cano figure himself out for the post season than have Delmon Young for the full season just to see him do neat things in the playoffs. (lol, your right, you win,...)

My point is that for THIS post season, Delmon Young is doing it and Cano is not and frankly it's not how I saw this post season going....

**Biff Mayhem** · 10-17-2012, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

If you could generate one like that for A-Roid I would love to see that.

Alex Rodriguez Postseason Batting Gamelogs - Baseball-Reference.com

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by qsilvr2531

He's had an excellent ALCS and I hope he keeps it up in the WS. He was terrible in the ALDS and I hope he does much better in the WS.

The interesting thing, to me, is if you look at Young's posteason numbers he's been an absolutely monster against the Yankees and absolutely terrible against everyone else.

Maybe the Yankees will sign him.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 10-17-2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

Biggs, lol...calm down!

Yes, I'd rather have Cano for a full season and let Cano figure himself out for the post season than have Delmon Young for the full season just to see him do neat things in the playoffs. (lol, your right, you win,...)

My point is that for THIS post season, Delmon Young is doing it and Cano is not and frankly it's not how I saw this post season going....

I am calm, FWIW.

I don't think anyone would dispute the claim Delmon has had a better post-season than Cano, as Robinson is having a historically bad post-season.

**STLTiger69** · 10-17-2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

If you could generate one like that for A-Roid I would love to see that.

This is more interesting;

Alex Rodriguez Loves; Girlfriends Alex Rodriguez is dating/dated

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by qsilvr2531

"he does come up with clutch hits, just not a lot during the season" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the guy.

When people say that somebody is clutch, I'm never sure whether that's a good thing. If someone only hits when it's clutch that suggests to me he is not doing his best in other situations. I man if he is able to get himself to hit in clutch situations, shouldn't he be able to hit better all the time?

If you are taking a course and you goof off all semester, but then cram for the final exam and barely pass the course, is that a good thing? Does that make you a clutch student?

**RatkoVarda** · 10-17-2012, 03:53 PM

this is odd:
Jeter has a post-season career OPS of .838 and
ARod has a post-season career OPS of .838

if Delmon wants to come back for $4m to be the right handed bat in a LF platoon, that's fine with me,
but he won't take that, and that's even more fine with me.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 10-17-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

This is more interesting;

Alex Rodriguez Loves; Girlfriends Alex Rodriguez is dating/dated

So it is safe to say he has performed better in the post-season than with the ladies?

**STLTiger69** · 10-17-2012, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

So it is safe to say he has performed better in the post-season than with the ladies?

Doesn't really say if he's going 0'for this ALCS in that regards as well....

(I just saw that he "dated" Madonna and after my dry heaves stopped,....I just left it alone..)

**Antrat** · 10-17-2012, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

This is more interesting;

Alex Rodriguez Loves; Girlfriends Alex Rodriguez is dating/dated

From the looks of most of those women, I would say that A-Rod is in denial.

**STLTiger69** · 10-17-2012, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

When people say that somebody is clutch, I'm never sure whether that's a good thing. If someone only hits when it's clutch that suggests to me he is not doing his best in other situations. I man if he is able to get himself to hit in clutch situations, shouldn't he be able to hit better all the time?

If you are taking a course and you goof off all semester, but then cram for the final exam and barely pass the course, is that a good thing? Does that make you a clutch student?

You make some good points, but not every player has a Miguel Cabrera deep inside him. I like to think I'd rather be called a "cluch hitter" than, "Well, his golve is pretty solid and he shows up to the team meetings on time...."

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

You make some good points, but not every player has a Miguel Cabrera deep inside him. I like to think I'd rather be called a "cluch hitter" than, "Well, his golve is pretty solid and he shows up to the team meetings on time...."

I'm pretty sure Young doesn't have to worry about someone telling him: "Your glove is pretty solid". I think I'd prefer consistently good defense to occasional clutch hitting though. At least you can't count on that continuing in the future.

**STLTiger69** · 10-17-2012, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Antrat

From the looks of most of those women, I would say that A-Rod is in denial.

lol, let me digress for a second;

MADONNA was on that list...

Let me help your ick factor here,

In early 1991 Madonna dated Vanilla Ice.

in the mid 1990's Madonna and Dennis Rodman were dating

In 2008, Madonna dated Alex Rodreguez.

Which is pretty ironic because 2007 was really A-Rod's last great season before he went into decline.

Year	G	PA	AB	R	HR	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2007	158	708	583	143	54	156	95	120	.314	.422	.645	1.067
2008	138	594	510	104	35	103	65	117	.302	.392	.573	.965
2009	124	535	444	78	30	100	80	97	.286	.402	.532	.933
2010	137	595	522	74	30	125	59	98	.270	.341	.506	.847
2011	99	428	373	67	16	62	47	80	.276	.362	.461	.823
2012	122	529	463	74	18	57	51	116	.272	.353	.430	.783
19 Yrs	2524	11163	9662	1898	647	1950	1217	2032	.300	.384	.560	.945
162 Game Avg.	162	716	620	122	42	125	78	130	.300	.384	.560	.945
	G	PA	AB	R	HR	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
NYY (9 yrs)	1249	5476	4673	889	302	960	658	1037	.292	.387	.538	.925
SEA (7 yrs)	790	3515	3126	627	189	595	310	616	.309	.374	.561	.934
TEX (3 yrs)	485	2172	1863	382	156	395	249	379	.305	.395	.615	1.011

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/17/2012.

To which I call this the "Ice, Ice Baby" effect.....

**drownwithyou** · 10-17-2012, 04:23 PM

Regarding Rodriguez's decline, I found this tweet a bit ago pretty good:

Jeremy Schaap ‏@JeremySchaap

ARod's slugging pct. in 2 seasons before admitting steroid use: .645, .573. In 4 seasons since: .532, .506, .461, .430.

**pyrotigers** · 10-17-2012, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

I agree....dude is killing it in the post season. He will never get the credit he deserves because he doesn't walk enough and he called someone a derrogatory name.

He's 8-30 with 2 hr and 1 walk in the postseason. After hitting .267 .296 .411 as a DH in the regular season. I'm sorry, I don't hate him because he doesn't walk or because he called someone a bad name. I don't like him because he's bad at baseball. 2 home runs does not change his years and years of being bad at baseball.

.284 .317 .425 career hitter.

I'm glad he's having a good LCS. I hope he mashes in the world series as well, good for him. He's a part of Tigers history. That doesn't make him a good player, it doesn't even make him an average player. I hope he's off the team the day after celebrating the World Series win.

**sagnam** · 10-17-2012, 04:40 PM

I don't understand the issue. In the context of the rest of the offense, Delmon Young is playing well. Can't one "tip their cap" to a bad player for what he's doing today? You don't have to like him and you don't have to want him back to acknowledge that he's currently struggling less than his peers.

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by sagnam

I don't understand the issue. In the context of the rest of the offense, Delmon Young is playing well. Can't one "tip their cap" to a bad player for what he's doing today? You don't have to like him and you don't have to want him back to acknowledge that he's currently struggling less than his peers.

Yes, and that is what most people have done here.

**sagnam** · 10-17-2012, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

Yes, and that is what most people have done here.

Really? It's almost always a footnote to how horrible he's been leading up to and including this series. Why is it so hard to just say I'm glad he's come through and I hope he keeps it up? It's well documented that almost all of us do not want him back, why rehash it all again?

**John_Brian_K** · 10-17-2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

He's 8-30 with 2 hr and 1 walk in the postseason. After hitting .267 .296 .411 as a DH in the regular season. I'm sorry, I don't hate him because he doesn't walk or because he called someone a bad name. I don't like him because he's bad at baseball. 2 home runs does not change his years and years of being bad at baseball.

.284 .317 .425 career hitter.

I'm glad he's having a good LCS. I hope he mashes in the world series as well, good for him. He's a part of Tigers history. That doesn't make him a good player, it doesn't even make him an average player. I hope he's off the team the day after celebrating the World Series win.

Dudes OBP is .296 on the season. If he walks at a relatively normal rate his OBP goes up to .330 or so which would make him a .750 OPS'er.

Not great, but I would not call a guy who can OPS .750 a 'bad baseball player' and this goes directly to my point about people hating him because he does not walk.

Horrible base runner, horrible fielder no doubt, but if he walked at league average he would be a useful player to have.

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by sagnam

Really? It's almost always a footnote to how horrible he's been leading up to and including this series. Why is it so hard to just say I'm glad he's come through and I hope he keeps it up? It's well documented that almost all of us do not want him back, why rehash it all again?

Three reasons:
(1) JBK's troll post (second post in thread) set people off. Good job by him.
(2) A couple people said they did want him back and I think it was fair to respond to that.
(3) just saying a controversial player had a good series and wishing him good luck would be a boring thread.

**sagnam** · 10-17-2012, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

Dudes OBP is .296 on the season. If he walks at a relatively normal rate his OBP goes up to .330 or so which would make him a .750 OPS'er.

Not great, but I would not call a guy who can OPS .750 a 'bad baseball player' and this goes directly to my point about people hating him because he does not walk.

Horrible base runner, horrible fielder no doubt, but if he walked at league average he would be a useful player to have.

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

If he could hit 50 homeruns his OPS would skyrocket too. He is just as incapable of hitting that many homeruns as he is walking at a normal rate. And that's precisely why he's a terrible player.

**qsilvr2531** · 10-17-2012, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

Dudes OBP is .296 on the season. If he walks at a relatively normal rate his OBP goes up to .330 or so which would make him a .750 OPS'er.

Not great, but I would not call a guy who can OPS .750 a 'bad baseball player' and this goes directly to my point about people hating him because he does not walk.

Horrible base runner, horrible fielder no doubt, but if he walked at league average he would be a useful player to have.

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

His walk rate this year wasn't that much lower than for the rest of his career (3.3% vs. 4.1%). You are absolutely right though, if he walked more he wouldn't be a bad player.

**ErieTigerFan** · 10-17-2012, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

Very classy of you to say. Tip o' the hat.

**RobSk** · 10-17-2012, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

...rambling...

What you call rambling, I call a cogent argument with a few amusing (to me) bits thrown in.

I mean how would you rate Robinson Cano as a baseball player with the Yankees this post season?

If your right, I hope the Tigers find more bad players who happen to hit some home runs in next years post season too.

Obviously Cano has hit poorly. So what? He's an MVP level talent with the stick and a good defender at a premium position.

You wouldn't actually be suggesting that you'd rather have Delmon Young than Robinson Cano, are you?

Rob

**catswithbats** · 10-17-2012, 05:10 PM

Now isn't a very good time to be a Delmon hater. Random dudes keep attacking me on twitter for saying Delmon sucks earlier in the year. Womp womp.

**RobSk** · 10-17-2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by sagnam

I don't understand the issue. In the context of the rest of the offense, Delmon Young is playing well. Can't one "tip their cap" to a bad player for what he's doing today? You don't have to like him and you don't have to want him back to acknowledge that he's currently struggling less than his peers.

Well, no, I can't. Because we resigned a lousy player last year on the strength of a short run of good hitting.

I'd hate to see it happen again.

Obviously he's hit better in the post season than in the regular year. That has clearly helped the Tigers win. That's a good thing. Resigning him when he stinks overall is a bad thing. Sometimes it seems Tiger management can't tell the difference.

Rob

**sagnam** · 10-17-2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

Three reasons:
(1) JBK's troll post (second post in thread) set people off. Good job by him.
(2) A couple people said they did want him back and I think it was fair to respond to that.
(3) just saying a controversial player had a good series and wishing him good luck would be a boring thread.

1) I don't see jbk's posts
2) Those people say they want him back in every Delmon thread
3) Any more boring than another thread dedicated to Delmon's horribleness? Is it really fun to look up Delmon's career numbers for the 20th time?

**catswithbats** · 10-17-2012, 05:13 PM

because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

That's not why people "cream" him. People "cream" him because his plate discipline is garbage (plate discipline is more than just taking/not taking walks) and I'm not convinced he has any idea what he's doing up there, besides "swing as hard as he can and hopes he runs into one."

**RobSk** · 10-17-2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by ErieTigerFan

Biased. Too bad. No time to be a Tiger-hater. Hence, your posts hating on one player are really bush-league, bro.

I don't "hate" Delmon Young. I don't even know him. I don't "hate" the Tigers. I'm a Tiger fan.

I believe, and have backed up my belief, that Delmon Young is a poor major leaguer. That's just the fact.

The fact that I'm talking about one Tiger player in this thread is related to the fact that his NAME is in the title. It's about him.

No bush league involved. Just facts.

Rob

**will the thrill** · 10-17-2012, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

I agree....dude is killing it in the post season. He will never get the credit he deserves because he doesn't walk enough and he called someone a derrogatory name.

he doesn't get the credit he "deserves" because he had all the tools in the world and doesn't use any of them to the tune of .270-18-70 every year, batting behind 2 guys with .400+ OBP and driving in 72 isn't that impressive

**will the thrill** · 10-17-2012, 05:30 PM

.284/.317/.425
.239/.295/.523

Delmon isn't a better hitter in the postseason, he as jim puts it "gets into one" a bit more and makes it look like it. If dude gets resigned because of this playoff run, it's a bad decision on DD's part and he obviously doesn't look at actual numbers.

I love that Delmon is here right now because the tigers are winning and he's contributing, but let's not get it twisted, he's not some sort of playoff time all-star

**pyrotigers** · 10-17-2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

Dudes OBP is .296 on the season. If he walks at a relatively normal rate his OBP goes up to .330 or so which would make him a .750 OPS'er.

Not great, but I would not call a guy who can OPS .750 a 'bad baseball player' and this goes directly to my point about people hating him because he does not walk.

Horrible base runner, horrible fielder no doubt, but if he walked at league average he would be a useful player to have.

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

A DH with a .330 OBP and a .750 OPS is a bad baseball player. But Delmon can't do that. So he's bad.

If Don Kelly could jack 30 dingers a year, he'd be a solid player. BUt he can't. So he's bad.

This isn't some just Delmon thing, any player who is terrible at a key aspect of the game and not very good at the rest is bad. I could list dozens of players like that in MLB, fortunately Delmon just happens to be one of the only ones playing for the Tigers.

**RobSk** · 10-17-2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by qsilvr2531

His walk rate this year wasn't that much lower than for the rest of his career (3.3% vs. 4.1%). You are absolutely right though, if he walked more he wouldn't be a bad player.

He'd have to walk a LOT more (like 25 extra walks a year) to get out of the "bad player" zone. Even if he had a median walk rate for a DH (9% or so), he still would only be fit to be an average DH, since his defense is so monumentally awful. But of course, this is not going to happen.

But I say again, Young's problems are not just "not walking". He has the lowest walk rate of any DH with over 600 PA over the last 2 years. But he's also 12th out of 16 in both ISO and SLG, so his power is pretty bad. And obviously, if you consider anything but DH, there's the defense. And the baserunning.

None of this has anything to do with his off the field problems.

Rob

**Sports_Freak** · 10-17-2012, 08:27 PM

You know what? I've called for Young to be DFA all season. And then he got hot during the stretch run. And now he has another playoff run. Do I want him on the 2013 Tigers? No, not if VMart is healthy. But, and I know it's not possible, if we could get him cheap (and I mean really cheap) I wouldn't mind having him around to pinch hit or fill in if there's any injuries. Miggy, Prince, VMart and Kelly can all play 1st base but at 3rd base, we're a little weak at back-up.

Anyway, if Young were hitting like he did mostly all season, I would dislike him more. Do I like him now? No, not really. But I sure like it when he gets a key hit, or even puts the ball in play. The Yankees inability to turn a DP got him an extra RBI and I will take it.

**tiger337** · 10-17-2012, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sports_Freak

You know what? I've called for Young to be DFA all season. And then he got hot during the stretch run. And now he has another playoff run. Do I want him on the 2013 Tigers? No, not if VMart is healthy. But, and I know it's not possible, if we could get him cheap (and I mean really cheap) I wouldn't mind having him around to pinch hit or fill in if there's any injuries. Miggy, Prince, VMart and Kelly can all play 1st base but at 3rd base, we're a little weak at back-up.

Anyway, if Young were hitting like he did mostly all season, I would dislike him more. Do I like him now? No, not really. But I sure like it when he gets a key hit, or even puts the ball in play. The Yankees inability to turn a DP got him an extra RBI and I will take it.

yeah, I wouldn't mind him if he was a back-up playing versus left handers only. The problem is he makes too much money for that role and probably will continue to do so.

**Nastradamus** · 10-18-2012, 12:10 AM

Delmon is mediocre with some mean hot streaks.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 10-18-2012, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

Dudes OBP is .296 on the season. If he walks at a relatively normal rate his OBP goes up to .330 or so which would make him a .750 OPS'er.

Not great, but I would not call a guy who can OPS .750 a 'bad baseball player' and this goes directly to my point about people hating him because he does not walk.

Horrible base runner, horrible fielder no doubt, but if he walked at league average he would be a useful player to have.

FTR: I do not particularly want him back next year...I just think dude gets smashed because he is not a 'good guy'....I hate that....Miguel has had more runs ins with the law than he has, but because Delmon can't take a walk to save his life he gets creamed...continually.

He's never going to walk at a league average rate, so what's the point of the argument? If any player walked 4% more often than they do, they'd be better.

**John_Brian_K** · 10-18-2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

A DH with a .330 OBP and a .750 OPS is a bad baseball player. But Delmon can't do that. So he's bad.

If Don Kelly could jack 30 dingers a year, he'd be a solid player. BUt he can't. So he's bad.

This isn't some just Delmon thing, any player who is terrible at a key aspect of the game and not very good at the rest is bad. I could list dozens of players like that in MLB, fortunately Delmon just happens to be one of the only ones playing for the Tigers.

Someone did it before ....and I do not have the time right now...maybe later, but they compared full time DH's throughout the league and Delmon was fairly high in all categories.

I think V-Mart spoiled you last year.

**tiger337** · 10-18-2012, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

Someone did it before ....and I do not have the time right now...maybe later, but they compared full time DH's throughout the league and Delmon was fairly high in all categories.

I think V-Mart spoiled you last year.

He was 11th out of 13 qualifying designated hitters in OPS and is below average in every other stat:

Major League Leaderboards » 2012 » Designated Hitters » Advanced Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball