Who'da thunk?

**Gehringer_2** · 07-05-2012, 11:16 PM

the 2012 edition of Justin Verlander is leading the lead in complete games and is not even in the top 30 in pitches/inning pitched.

We needn't have worried in the 1st 5 years of his career that he was not enough *like* Roy Halladay --- he has *become* Roy Halladay.

**STLTiger69** · 07-06-2012, 12:17 AM

I think one of the hardest things to do in any sport as a general manager is to have faith enough in young players to let them take their lumps and learn their lessons and stand by them. Sometimes I think doing nothing can be the right thing to do even if it is one of the hardest things to do at the time....

Here's an oldy but goodie forums that are fun for a bit of perspective from 2009;

Stark on Verlander

**Gehringer_2** · 07-06-2012, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by STLTiger69

I think one of the hardest things to do in any sport as a general manager is to have faith enough in young players to let them take their lumps and learn their lessons and stand by them. Sometimes I think doing nothing can be the right thing to do even if it is one of the hardest things to do at the time....

Here's an oldy but goodie forums that are fun for a bit of perspective from 2009;

Stark on Verlander

HaHa.

Two things stand out in that thread. 1-The number of banned posters in the thread. I guess having strong opinions about Verlander must be a marker for a 'release' prone personality!

2- History has proved JV didn't need Knapp, he just needed time to mature to see whether his FB command would eventually catch up to the rest of the package. In retrospect probably something that was easier to predict for those less emotionally invested in the args.

**TigerFan1984** · 07-06-2012, 01:18 AM

I was going to bring this up elsewhere, but if Verlander keeps putting up numbers like last year and this year through 2014. What kind of deal are we talking to keep him here, 8 years 200 million. That is a lot of money for a 32 year old pitcher, but I think you might have to do it. I want to see him retire as a Tiger (and hopefully enter the hall of fame as a Tiger). Also Verlander has had no real injury problems.

**STLTiger69** · 07-06-2012, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by TigerFan1984

I was going to bring this up elsewhere, but if Verlander keeps putting up numbers like last year and this year through 2014. What kind of deal are we talking to keep him here, 8 years 200 million. That is a lot of money for a 32 year old pitcher, but I think you might have to do it. I want to see him retire as a Tiger (and hopefully enter the hall of fame as a Tiger). Also Verlander has had no real injury problems.

It will be a lot like Albert Pujols and the St. Louis Cardinals negotiations. Verlander and his agent will have a number in mind and either the Tigers pay that number or some other team likely will...it's pretty simple really.....

**KleShreen** · 07-06-2012, 05:23 AM

The one that concerns me about locking up JV for a long term deal at that point would be that he's never struck me as a guy who would be a permanent centerpiece in Detroit. That's no offense to Verlander, but there's just some guys who you feel like are entrenched in the community and team that they would never leave (like Granderson was when he was inexplicably traded, or Yzerman/Lidstrom for the Wings, etc.)...but JV doesn't give off that feel to me. I'm hoping when that time does come, he doesn't chase the money.

**drownwithyou** · 07-06-2012, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

just some guys who you feel like are entrenched in the community and team

I always thought this were the case with Verlander, but that is totally my opinion, and probably wishful thinking on my part. Anything specific giving you this feeling or just something that concerns you? I don't know why, but I feel like Verlander is going to get crazy money from another team after this contract... entrenched in Detroit or not.

**KleShreen** · 07-06-2012, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

I always thought this were the case with Verlander, but that is totally my opinion, and probably wishful thinking on my part. Anything specific giving you this feeling or just something that concerns you? I don't know why, but I feel like Verlander is going to get crazy money from another team after this contract... entrenched in Detroit or not.

Just a gut feeling more than anything, I suppose. I mean, I guess in my own mind, there's some guys who have played in Detroit who are always expressing their love and admiration for the city and in some cases, explicitly come out and say they can't envision themselves leaving. Stuff like that. And when it comes to the guys I named earlier, almost all of them had their own community service projects or organizations they set up within the city and as far as I know, Verlander hasn't done anything like that besides his suite he gives out to veterans during games. That could be entirely off base and he really has a lot of that stuff set up, I just haven't heard much about it. I guess those kinds of things are what tell me that a player wants to stay in a city and can be influenced to take less money in negotiations if that's the case.

**drownwithyou** · 07-06-2012, 05:57 AM

Fastball Flakes proceeds went to a Michigan hospital I think... otherwise I don't know of any other stuff he has done.

**KleShreen** · 07-06-2012, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

Fastball Flakes proceeds went to a Michigan hospital I think... otherwise I don't know of any other stuff he has done.

For example, a guy like Granderson I feel would have been a Tiger for life had he not been traded. He seemed, to me at least, like a guy who no matter how good he got and how much money he would get offered, seemed to be entrenched in the Tigers and would have been here for his entire career as long as the Tigers kept offering him contracts. Might just be my own weird line of thinking, though.

**Antrat** · 07-06-2012, 07:41 AM

It will be a sad day when Verlander dons another uniform, but I believe that day will indeed come. Might not even be the worst thing if it happens because of a trade and we get back some good prospects.
I used to think JV was going to be one of those pitchers that would burn bright for a short while and then fade. The logic being that 100 MPH fastballs will take its toll.
Now that he actually has become a pitcher and not a thrower, I think he's going to have a long and great run. Hopefully in a Tiger uniform.

**Dawgs** · 07-06-2012, 09:39 AM

I think any player hopes to play for one team his entire career. It just seems that those players who do gain more respect for what theyve done than a guy who has moved around alot.

That said if the Tigers offer him competitive contracts he will stay, if not he will leave. I dont see him as a guy chasing the money. Hes a guy chasing the notion hes the best at his position to ever play the game and he can do that in Detroit as easily as anywhere else.

**MissouriKaline6** · 07-06-2012, 10:29 AM

I don't think you can read anything into not having a foundation or large scale projects set up in Detroit. Pujols had a restaurant and his foundation in St. Louis and still chased the cash. Everyone (but my wife) thought he was a Cardinal for life, but when green came to shove.. I'd say being genuine and the small things are just as important. And really my guess is that those who know Verlander personally think a lot higer of him than those who know or have interacted with Pujols. However, as it always does in sports, it will come down to money. I just hope the Tigers are in a position to give him what he has earned.

**TigersSlappy** · 07-06-2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by MissouriKaline6

I don't think you can read anything into not having a foundation or large scale projects set up in Detroit. Pujols had a restaurant and his foundation in St. Louis and still chased the cash. Everyone (but my wife) thought he was a Cardinal for life, but when green came to shove.. I'd say being genuine and the small things are just as important. And really my guess is that those who know Verlander personally think a lot higer of him than those who know or have interacted with Pujols. However, as it always does in sports, it will come down to money. I just hope the Tigers are in a position to give him what he has earned.

JV has thought about the HoF and his legacy from day 1, I'm sure he's not unaware that there's a little extra cachet for anyone that spends his entire career with 1 team. That leads me to believe that all things being generally equal he will remain a Tiger.

**Antrat** · 07-06-2012, 11:58 AM

Another key factor will be if he thinks the Tigers will be competive.
I'm sure he will factor that in the next time he has to make a contract decision.
I also think that if the Tigers want to keep him, the worst thing to do is let him become a free agent. Near the end of his current deal, they better be working on another extension. The bidding war on JV would be insane.

**Vonlenska** · 07-06-2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

For example, a guy like Granderson I feel would have been a Tiger for life had he not been traded. He seemed, to me at least, like a guy who no matter how good he got and how much money he would get offered, seemed to be entrenched in the Tigers and would have been here for his entire career as long as the Tigers kept offering him contracts. Might just be my own weird line of thinking, though.

Granderson isn't the best player at his position, though. It's different for JV.

**Vonlenska** · 07-06-2012, 12:06 PM

Also I don't think it's very likely that JV remains a Tiger his whole career if he pitches with success into his late 30s.

**pyrotigers** · 07-06-2012, 12:11 PM

If the Tigers miss the playoff this year and the next it would not surprise me if Verlander left as a free agent, the top teams would presumably all be willing to offer him as much money as Detroit and he's talked in the past about his desire to win/play on a big stage/whatever.

That said I do think if the Tigers are competitive and offer him a fair deal he'd sign it, I certainly haven't gotten the impression that he doesn't appreciate the Tigers or the fans or anything like that. Of course none of us really know the guy so this could be 100% wrong.

**ErieTigerFan** · 07-06-2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

Also I don't think it's very likely that JV remains a Tiger his whole career if he pitches with success into his late 30s.

Much like Jack Morris.

**TigersSlappy** · 07-06-2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by ErieTigerFan

Much like Jack Morris.

Though it hurt a lot at the time, looking back on it I think JM's prickly personality had some effect on him leaving, I don't see that from JV.

**tiger337** · 07-06-2012, 01:08 PM

Morris was a poor pitcher his last two years with the Tigers. If that happens to Verlander, I would want them to let him go too.

**ErieTigerFan** · 07-06-2012, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

Morris was a poor pitcher his last two years with the Tigers. If that happens to Verlander, I would want them to let him go too.

Perhaps it was because the Tigers were less competetive as a team at the time, but he did go on to win a Cy Young with Toronto and win 20 games. So it wasn't like his skills were in decline.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 07-06-2012, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by ErieTigerFan

So it wasn't like his skills were in decline.

Probably because his skills were overstated thorughout the majority of his career by the media at large.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 07-06-2012, 02:43 PM

I think others have hit on it, but my sense is as long as the Tigers are competitive and offer him similar salary as other teams, he will be a Tiger.

**tiger337** · 07-06-2012, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by ErieTigerFan

Perhaps it was because the Tigers were less competetive as a team at the time, but he did go on to win a Cy Young with Toronto and win 20 games. So it wasn't like his skills were in decline.

If he wasn't trying his hardest because the Tigers were not competitive, then that's more reason to let him go. Maybe, he needed to go elsewhere to start pitching well again. I just know I was not unhappy to see him go when he did.

**tiger337** · 07-06-2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I think others have hit on it, but my sense is as long as the Tigers are competitive and offer him similar salary as other teams, he will be a Tiger.

I think a lot depends on the ownership situation. If Illitch is the owner, he'll probably be willing to pay him as much as he wants. What a new owner would do is unknown.

**will the thrill** · 07-06-2012, 03:07 PM

I'd trade him if he pitches decently and we aren't in contention. He's not going to develop into a true ace.

love this one from Jake

**Gehringer_2** · 07-06-2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by TigersSlappy

JV has thought about the HoF and his legacy from day 1, I'm sure he's not unaware that there's a little extra cachet for anyone that spends his entire career with 1 team. That leads me to believe that all things being generally equal he will remain a Tiger.

But there is probably a lot MORE cachet to a guy who pitches in and wins games in the WS. It's very tough to keep any FA if you don't stay competitive. The Tigers have been in all but one year in JV's career so far, but they better keep it that way....