Marte/Worth Down, Ortega/Downs Up

[davidsb]

Story Here

Somebody coming off the 40 man roster.

[Motor City Sonics]

Story Here

Somebody coming off the 40 man roster.

They sure miscalculated the 40 man this year, didn't they? I can't remember a year when so many guys not on the S/T 40 man made their way to the team.

This is a one-day move because Below will probably only be able to pitch 3 innings (maybe 4 at most). If this was a one-day move, why couldn't they just bring up Wilk or Oliver or someone like that?

[redshark63]

Lynn thinks it might be Weber:
though he gets his age wrong and Thad corrects him via Twitter!

Lynn G. Henning ‏@Lynn_Henning One possibility for Tigers minor-league DFA is Thad Weber, right-hander, 28, who might be least likely to match long-term needs and talents.



Thad Weber ‏@thad_weber I'm 27 RT @Lynn_Henning: One possibility for Tigers minor-league DFA is Thad Weber, right-hander, 28


Lynn G. Henning ‏@Lynn_Henning
@drumgarden @thad_weber Yes, and Thad Weber is one good sport, as well as one gentlemanly 27-year-old who doesn't turn 28 till September.

[john doe]

Lynn thinks it might be Weber:
though he gets his age wrong and Thad corrects him via Twitter!

Lynn G. Henning ‏@Lynn_Henning One possibility for Tigers minor-league DFA is Thad Weber, right-hander, 28, who might be least likely to match long-term needs and talents.



Thad Weber ‏@thad_weber I'm 27 RT @Lynn_Henning: One possibility for Tigers minor-league DFA is Thad Weber, right-hander, 28


Lynn G. Henning ‏@Lynn_Henning
@drumgarden @thad_weber Yes, and Thad Weber is one good sport, as well as one gentlemanly 27-year-old who doesn't turn 28 till September.

Just a guess...Matt Young?

[Shelton]

Dfa Ortega.

[Scottish caveman]

Just a guess...Matt Young?

Correct, according to Brian Britten...Matt Young...DFA !!

[pyrotigers]

Matt Young DFA in a move that involves Jose Ortega coming to the big leagues, I'm really curious what kind of alternate reality Dave Dombrowski inhabits where 'bad relief pitcher' is more valuable than 'an outfielder that isn't Brennan Boesch, is between the ages of 18-42, and plays professional baseball'

[KleShreen]

I know most of my posts are in a negative tone...but...I feel like at this point, moves are being made out of pure desperation hoping to catch someone on fire. What does calling Ortega up and sending Marte down accomplish? Marte was pitching pretty well, better than Ortega was when he was up earlier this year. I can understand wanting another lefty in the bullpen with Downs. But I guess having Ortega over Marte just confuses me.

[Oblong]

Marte pitched last night... Below's going tonight and they can't expect him to go many innings, even if he pitches well, so they have Ortega tonight.

[Edman85]

They sure miscalculated the 40 man this year, didn't they? I can't remember a year when so many guys not on the S/T 40 man made their way to the team.

This is a one-day move because Below will probably only be able to pitch 3 innings (maybe 4 at most). If this was a one-day move, why couldn't they just bring up Wilk or Oliver or someone like that?

I don't think you have a grasp on how the 40 man roster works. Most of this is the result of the Tigers being more heavily invested in Venezuela and having to protect Avi Garcia and Hernan Perez well before they are able to contribute at the big leagues. Setting the 40 man is all about protecting guys from the Rule 5, not about setting up your reserves the following season.

Second, Wilk just started Friday and isn't available. Oliver is struggling. They probably wanted a lefty and Hoffman isn't pitching that well these days.

[Edman85]

Matt Young DFA in a move that involves Jose Ortega coming to the big leagues, I'm really curious what kind of alternate reality Dave Dombrowski inhabits where 'bad relief pitcher' is more valuable than 'an outfielder that isn't Brennan Boesch, is between the ages of 18-42, and plays professional baseball'

Young clears room for Downs. Ortega was already on the 40.

[pyrotigers]

Young clears room for Downs. Ortega was already on the 40.

Yes, what I'm saying is Ortega should never have been on the 40 or in MLB to begin with.

Just to be clear I do not actually think Matt Young is the answer or a good MLB player, it's just a running joke (and someone who IS legitimately better than Brennan Boesch of course) but it's a struggle for me to understand why anyone would think most of the 40 man roster is worth having on it to the point where you'd need to DFA someone who could theoretically still have a role as a bench player in MLB.

I mean look at these bums:

Kelvin De La Cruz - Who?
Matt Hoffman - If Downs is getting the call ahead of him, why is he taking up a spot?
Jose Ortega - Are you serious, he walks everyone in AAA
Luke Putkonen - Awful
Tyler Stohr - A 25 year old who's terrible? Seems like a good use of a 40 spot. Not everyone can walk 7 per 9 in AA at that age I suppose
Thad Weber - Old and passed over again and again, obviously not in the org's plans
Adam Wilk - I don't understand why he is on the 40 man if he's below Crosby in the starting plans and apparently never going to get a shot as a long man

Hernan Perez - Come on, no one is going to take a 2nd baseman who can't hit a lick in the Rule V draft. He can't defend or hit, how is this guy a 'prospect' at all?
Avisail Garcia - Yeah, I get that this guy is a 'prospect' too, and I'm sure when he brings his 'never, ever, walk while striking out at a prodigious clip' style of play to face pitchers with actual breaking pitches in AA things are going to go great. Much less MLB. The guy has never walked more than 20 times in a season and is on pace for less than that this year. Awesome.

The Tigers depth just flat out sucks.

The problem with the Tigers 40 man roster is that rule V draft or no, they have a whole bunch of bad players on it. If they had more good players to begin with they wouldn't have to shuffle it around.

[KleShreen]

For anyone not familiar with what Darin Downs has been through:

For Tampa Bay Rays prospect Darin Downs, climb back to the mound is steep - Tampa Bay Times

[Edman85]

Yes, what I'm saying is Ortega should never have been on the 40 or in MLB to begin with.

Just to be clear I do not actually think Matt Young is the answer or a good MLB player, it's just a running joke (and someone who IS legitimately better than Brennan Boesch of course) but it's a struggle for me to understand why anyone would think most of the 40 man roster is worth having on it to the point where you'd need to DFA someone who could theoretically still have a role as a bench player in MLB.

I mean look at these bums:

Kelvin De La Cruz - Who?
Matt Hoffman - If Downs is getting the call ahead of him, why is he taking up a spot?
Jose Ortega - Are you serious, he walks everyone in AAA
Luke Putkonen - Awful
Tyler Stohr - A 25 year old who's terrible? Seems like a good use of a 40 spot. Not everyone can walk 7 per 9 in AA at that age I suppose
Thad Weber - Old and passed over again and again, obviously not in the org's plans
Adam Wilk - I don't understand why he is on the 40 man if he's below Crosby in the starting plans and apparently never going to get a shot as a long man

Hernan Perez - Come on, no one is going to take a 2nd baseman who can't hit a lick in the Rule V draft. He can't defend or hit, how is this guy a 'prospect' at all?
Avisail Garcia - Yeah, I get that this guy is a 'prospect' too, and I'm sure when he brings his 'never, ever, walk while striking out at a prodigious clip' style of play to face pitchers with actual breaking pitches in AA things are going to go great. Much less MLB. The guy has never walked more than 20 times in a season and is on pace for less than that this year. Awesome.

The Tigers depth just flat out sucks.

The problem with the Tigers 40 man roster is that rule V draft or no, they have a whole bunch of bad players on it. If they had more good players to begin with they wouldn't have to shuffle it around.

Young arms who can pump it in the mid to high 90's are more likely to get nabbed on waivers than career minor leaguers.

[Edman85]

You guys just don't have a grasp of how the 40 man roster works. It's not a place to stash reserve players; it's a place to protect players from the Rule 5 draft. The reason guys like Downs, Berry, and Young needed to be added is just that they didn't need to go on the 40-man in order to be acquired.

[pyrotigers]

Young arms who can pump it in the mid to high 90's are more likely to get nabbed on waivers than career minor leaguers.

Well yeah...but who cares? That's my whole issue here, the Tigers value guys like Jose Ortega, Luke Putknoen, and Tyler Stohr even though they're not any good. I'll give Dombrowski credit, with Dotel, Benoit, and Coke all pitching well and Villareal looking great the bullpen is far better than I'd hoped, but that doesn't negate the miserable failures of tons of hard throwing guys with no feel for the strike zone.

I know how the 40 man roster works, and I feel quite confident saying that there was a zero percent chance anyone would take Perez or Garcia in the Rule V, and likewise the Tigers should just not care at all if they lost most of those bad relievers. Oh no, another team has Jose Ortega, how will we find another guy who can walk a batter per inning in the minors?

[jonjd]

You guys just don't have a grasp of how the 40 man roster works. It's not a place to stash reserve players; it's a place to protect players from the Rule 5 draft. The reason guys like Downs, Berry, and Young needed to be added is just that they didn't need to go on the 40-man in order to be acquired.

Post of the year for best Sportz impression.

[Antrat]

What's a 40 man roster?

[Edman85]

Well yeah...but who cares? That's my whole issue here, the Tigers value guys like Jose Ortega, Luke Putknoen, and Tyler Stohr even though they're not any good. I'll give Dombrowski credit, with Dotel, Benoit, and Coke all pitching well and Villareal looking great the bullpen is far better than I'd hoped, but that doesn't negate the miserable failures of tons of hard throwing guys with no feel for the strike zone.

Because every now and then somebody like Ortega, Stohr, or Putkonen turn into Villarreal or Alburquerque. There is nothing to lose by keeping these guys in tow.

I know how the 40 man roster works, and I feel quite confident saying that there was a zero percent chance anyone would take Perez or Garcia in the Rule V, and likewise the Tigers should just not care at all if they lost most of those bad relievers. Oh no, another team has Jose Ortega, how will we find another guy who can walk a batter per inning in the minors?

It's not about losing a guy who can walk a batter per inning. It's about losing a guy with the skill to throw a fastball in the upper 90's and trying to turn him into an MLB reliever. Stohr didn't stink at the time he was protected. Again, it's all about their skill set and whether they CAN be something down the road. You protect them for a year or two, and if it doesn't work out, nothing is lost.

[Longgone]

Well yeah...but who cares? That's my whole issue here, the Tigers value guys like Jose Ortega, Luke Putknoen, and Tyler Stohr even though they're not any good. I'll give Dombrowski credit, with Dotel, Benoit, and Coke all pitching well and Villareal looking great the bullpen is far better than I'd hoped, but that doesn't negate the miserable failures of tons of hard throwing guys with no feel for the strike zone.

I know how the 40 man roster works, and I feel quite confident saying that there was a zero percent chance anyone would take Perez or Garcia in the Rule V, and likewise the Tigers should just not care at all if they lost most of those bad relievers. Oh no, another team has Jose Ortega, how will we find another guy who can walk a batter per inning in the minors?

I think you are relying too much on stats to say they are no good. Ortega, Putkonen and Stohr all have the ingredients to be bullpen assets. Ortega throws 100 and flashes a sharp slider. Putkonen had a real uptick in stuff when they moved him to the pen, and Stohr is hampered by an injury. Just because they are not a finished product yet, doesn't mean you throw them away. Regarding Garcia and Perez, you do not expose young high ceiling prospects to the Rule 5, because some second level team will take them as a way to acquire young talent.

[TigerNation]

I have a hard time imaging there is a team in MLB that would keep Perez on their 25 man roster all season.

[Shelton]

Removing guys from the 40 man roster is not really a rule 5 concern. They can always be added back prior to the draft in December. Removing a player from the 40 right now means that any team can add him via waivers.

The 40 man is more than just a mechanism to protect players from rule 5. It is also an important tool to preserve reserve player depth.

Calling up Downs and Ortega made little sense to me when it meant that they would have to lose a player from the 40 man, even if it was just Matt Young. it would have made more sense to call up a pitcher that was already on the 40 man instead of downs.

It sucks that the tigers are so bad that Matt young is a reasonable option for their bench. Hopefully he will clear waivers.

[Shelton]

If you removed Perez, he would be available to any team with room on the 40 man and would not need to be carried on the 25 man.

[pyrotigers]

I think you are relying too much on stats to say they are no good. Ortega, Putkonen and Stohr all have the ingredients to be bullpen assets. Ortega throws 100 and flashes a sharp slider. Putkonen had a real uptick in stuff when they moved him to the pen, and Stohr is hampered by an injury. Just because they are not a finished product yet, doesn't mean you throw them away. Regarding Garcia and Perez, you do not expose young high ceiling prospects to the Rule 5, because some second level team will take them as a way to acquire young talent.

Stohr is 24, has never reached above AA, and has been terrible his entire career. At some point if you have all this talent you will throw strikes and get batters out at some level of baseball. That's the problem with most of these guys...they aren't that good. I'm not just looking at stats, no one in baseball is talking up Tyler Stohr or Jose Ortega as future back end of the bullpen guys. They're organizational soldiers who will be lucky to have a competent year or two of middle relief in the bigs. Dime a dozen. I don't have an issue with having guys who can come up and give you a few innings on the 40 man, I realize that's one of the primary uses for the 40 man roster, I just wish the Tigers had better players in that role.

Hernan Perez and Avisail Garcia were not high ceiling prospects going into this year, Garcia might be considered one by the Tigers now, but not by anyone else. Perez is a 2nd baseman who can't hit at all, I doubt anyone, even the Tigers, considers him a legit prospect. Garcia is a physical specimen who had never hit at all until this year, and even this season still shows zero strike zone judgment or ability. Neither guy has been on the prospect radar at all on a national level, and neither one has the ability to be carried a full MLB season at their current skill level unless a team was ridiculously desperate.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Neither guy has been on the prospect radar at all on a national level, and neither one has the ability to be carried a full MLB season at their current skill level unless a team was ridiculously desperate.

Like the Tigers!

[pyrotigers]

If you removed Perez, he would be available to any team with room on the 40 man and would not need to be carried on the 25 man.

Yes, I'm speaking of a hypothetical world where they never put him on the 40 man roster to begin with, that's how I feel about most of these guys. There's no point in taking them off now for the most part, but I don't see why they ever had to be added.

[Shelton]

Yes, I just realized that was your argument, and I agree with you somewhat. On the other hand, as you illustrated discussing the various relievers that are terrible, 40 man spots aren't that difficult to come by if you manage it well. There are teams out there that might not care about carrying a player that isn't ready so they can add to their system, do if you think a prospect has potential, you add him. I don't know much about Perez, but Garcia is certainly worth protecting.

[Edman85]

Hernan Perez and Avisail Garcia were not high ceiling prospects going into this year, Garcia might be considered one by the Tigers now, but not by anyone else. Perez is a 2nd baseman who can't hit at all, I doubt anyone, even the Tigers, considers him a legit prospect. Garcia is a physical specimen who had never hit at all until this year, and even this season still shows zero strike zone judgment or ability. Neither guy has been on the prospect radar at all on a national level, and neither one has the ability to be carried a full MLB season at their current skill level unless a team was ridiculously desperate.

Saying that Avisail Garcia was not a high ceiling prospect coming into the year is patently false.

Honestly, I felt Perez did not need to be protected. He's also a shortstop who is playing second base in the minors. There is a difference.

[Edman85]

Stohr, as of the offseason, was a reliever pumping it into the mid-90's with a solid slider. He was also a year removed from Tommy John Surgery. The Tigers were taking a shot that the stuff would continue to recover and the control would improve, as it does for a lot of guys as they get further away from that surgery. That's the type of guy you take a chance on. Is he dime-a-doze? Sure, but guys like Matt Young are about $0.03 per dozen.

[Edman85]

In Kevin Goldstein's Tigers Top prospects, here's a quick summary (it's not free) of Avisail Garcia. This is from February:

"Garcia has everything it takes to be a star. He's a huge, muscular outfielder with well above-average power. He's a very good athlete with average speed, good instincts in the outfield, and one of the best arms in the system."

[DaYooperASBDT]

1. The hero of today's game? Quite possibly one Darin Downs, with three innings of one hit relief. What a story if this continues!

2. Ortega was only called up again due to a short bullpen caused by Max's injury. Marte will be back in no time.