Why does Leyland hate Quintin Berry?

[Yoda]

Really... one example? Kurt Warner? That's why we should be starting Quintin Berry?

[drownwithyou]

Well if Kurt Warner did that, Berry is a lock to be a solid starter in the MLB! Why didn't I think of that before?

Would you agree that cases like Warner, although from a completely different sport/circumstances, are pretty rare and more often than not minor league numbers are a good indication of success in the major leagues?

[JustinCylander]

Warner's last three years in the NFL at Arizona, especially his last two years, he was very good. Unless you think 11,700 yards, 73 TD, 45 INT with a rating of about 93 over a three year period is average, and in that case you've been playing way too much Madden.

Saying Warner wasn't a HOF QB is okay, just don't say he was average.

I said after the greatest show on turf he was average to good, the fact that his combined QBR in those years was around 88, proves my point. He had a losing record as a starting quarterback after 2001 in St. Louis, he had some really mediocre or even below average years, a couple renaissance years in Arizona, but overall after 2001 he was average to good, he wasn't elite, he wasn't above average.

[Danjo]

I could give other examples, but the point was that you can't always project a players performance based upon his minor league stats. Usually they are consistent, but sometimes players can surprise you.

[1776]

Really... one example? Kurt Warner? That's why we should be starting Quintin Berry?

How do you interpret...

I agree. Kurt Warner was supposed to be awful, yet he turned out to be one of the best QB's in the history of the game. I'm not saying Berry is the next Kurt Warner, but you can't always judge a player by his minor league stats.

as someone implying Berry should be a starter? Or did I miss something?

[mickeyb105]

I agree. Kurt Warner was supposed to be awful, yet he turned out to be one of the best QB's in the history of the game. I'm not saying Berry is the next Kurt Warner, but you can't always judge a player by his minor league stats.

Danjo, there are a lot of examples out there of guys who weren't supposed to be "the guy" who had a major impact on a sports franchise. We've even had a few here in Detroit.

To name a few:

-Ben Wallace was an undrafted FA and wasn't on anyone's radar coming out of HS. A few rebounding titles, DPOY titles, and an NBA championship later he's a Detroit legend
-Ron LeFlore went from breaking into houses to breaking the Tigers' single-season steals record. His star didn't shine as long, but he was a difference maker.
-Dennis Rodman was a 2nd round draft pick who was extremely raw coming out of college. He was inducted into the HOF this year after several rebounding, DPOY and NBA Championships
-James Hall was undrafted out of Michigan, but he's managed 63 sacks over his career including an 11.5 year for Detroit and later a 10.5 year with STL.
-Doug Fister may not be a legend yet, but he was a utility player in high school He was drafted in the 49th round the first time around as a soph at Merced College before transferring to baseball factory Fresno St. and being redrafted much higher. Like Hall, who was an ace pitcher at Michigan, Fister was a better basketball prospect in high school where he averaged over 30 PTS.

Continuing on with Fister, he was not a strikeout pitcher in Seattle. Here in Detroit he's racking up some pretty solid K totals as a 27 and 28-year-old. Some people are late bloomers.

Berry certainly does not have Fister's ceiling, but he does have some talent in areas our team severly lacks--defense and speed. The dude can also lay down a good bunt, how many of our players have that tool in their bag?

I'm okay with him not starting every game, but I love the run-scoring potential we have with him and AJax hitting back-to-back.

[Danjo]

Albert Pujols was drafted in the 13th round as the 402nd overall pick.
Mike Piazza was drafted in the 62nd round as the 1,390th overall pick.
John Axford was drafted by the Reds in the 42nd round 1,259th overall pick.
Heath Bell was drafted by the Rays in the 69th round.
Jose Bautista was a bench player for 4 different teams before leading the league in home runs and All-Star votes.
Placido Polanco was used mostly as a utility player until 2007 when he won the Silver Slugger and Gold Glove.


I could go on, but I think you get the point. I'm not saying Berry is equal to these guys, but the level of hatred for the guy amazes me. You have so little faith. My main point is that he deserves a shot over Raburn who totally blows and has proven that he is incredibly inconsistent, yet he gets to start because he has naked pictures of Leyland with farm animals.

[mickeyb105]

I said after the greatest show on turf he was average to good, the fact that his combined QBR in those years was around 88, proves my point. He had a losing record as a starting quarterback after 2001 in St. Louis, he had some really mediocre or even below average years, a couple renaissance years in Arizona, but overall after 2001 he was average to good, he wasn't elite, he wasn't above average.

So by your standards, that makes guys like Archie Manning and Joe Namath average quarterbacks? LOL

Passing for 33,000 yards and setting numerous records over an NFL career is hardly average. Also, since when do average NFL players get MVP trophies? I've never seen it happen.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

How many of these examples involve guys who were nondescript to worse in the minor leagues for 6 years?

I mean, all the Ben Wallaces, James Halls' and Albert Pujols' of the world tell me that the drafting process is imprecise. They do not illustrate how minor leagues are not a reasonable gauge for MLB effectiveness.

Also, whether Kurt Warner is termed as great or very good or whatever has nothing to do with Quintin Berry.

[mickeyb105]

Albert Pujols was drafted in the 13th round as the 402nd overall pick.
Mike Piazza was drafted in the 62nd round as the 1,390th overall pick.
John Axford was drafted by the Reds in the 42nd round 1,259th overall pick.
Heath Bell was drafted by the Rays in the 69th round.
Jose Bautista was a bench player for 4 different teams before leading the league in home runs and All-Star votes.
Placido Polanco was used mostly as a utility player until 2007 when he won the Silver Slugger and Gold Glove.


I could go on, but I think you get the point. I'm not saying Berry is equal to these guys, but the level of hatred for the guy amazes me. You have so little faith. My main point is that he deserves a shot over Raburn who totally blows and has proven that he is incredibly inconsistent, yet he gets to start because he has naked pictures of Leyland with farm animals.

Simply put, some guys get to a point in their career and they just want it more than anyone else does. Piazza was a great example of that. I saw him put more time into his game the spring he broke in as a rookie than I've ever seen anyone else put in at Dodgertown. He was supposed to be nothing, just a player drafted as a favor to Lasorda because he was best friends with Piazza's godfather.

Piazza certainly didn't have the best tools, but he made himself a great hitter and when he first broke in he hustled all the time, and on every play.

This is the type of play we've missed all year--playing with urgency. I welcome the new blood, really, minor league numbers be damned.

[Danjo]

How many of these examples involve guys who were nondescript to worse in the minor leagues for 6 years?

Jose Bautista, John Axford, Heath Bell and Placido Polanco.

[mickeyb105]

How many of these examples involve guys who were nondescript to worse in the minor leagues for 6 years?

It is much more common with players coming back from Europe in basketball than in baseball.

And to be sure, there are a lot of politics in play in the baseball minors as to why some guys get moved up faster, or at all, over others.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Simply put, some guys get to a point in their career and they just want it more than anyone else does. Piazza was a great example of that. I saw him put more time into his game the spring he broke in as a rookie than I've ever seen anyone else put in at Dodgertown. He was supposed to be nothing, just a player drafted as a favor to Lasorda because he was best friends with Piazza's godfather.

Piazza certainly didn't have the best tools, but he made himself a great hitter and when he first broke in he hustled all the time, and on every play.

So Berry learned to want it more at age 27?

This is the type of play we've missed all year--playing with urgency. I welcome the new blood, really, minor league numbers be damned.

Yeah, who cares that it is unlikely that he will hit well enough to justify a spot in the starting line-up, he hustles. I like seeing a guy run really hard while making an out.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

It is much more common with players coming back from Europe in basketball than in baseball.

And to be sure, there are a lot of politics in play in the baseball minors as to why some guys get moved up faster, or at all, over others.

Did any of those politics come into play with Quintin? It doesn't look like it when looking at his minor league stats.

I don't give a **** about basketball - it isn't relevant to baseball. How many baseball players had something resembling Quintin's minor league career and age who went on to be even an average major leaguer for even a couple of years?

[JustinCylander]

So by your standards, that makes guys like Archie Manning and Joe Namath average quarterbacks? LOL

Passing for 33,000 yards and setting numerous records over an NFL career is hardly average. Also, since when do average NFL players get MVP trophies? I've never seen it happen.

I get reading comprehension isn't your forte since I said when he was with the Greatest Show on Turf he was elite, there's no denying that, and he won an MVP for his numbers there. That said, 1-2 elite years over a career doesn't make a player one of the all time greats.

I wouldn't even put Archie Manning in the average category, threw more INTs than TDs, QB rating below 70 for his career, barely completed 50% of his career passes. Granted he played on some terrible teams.

If Namath played anywhere other than NYC he wouldn't be remembered as a great quarterback, because the stats don't lie, he wasn't. BleacherReport had the Top 25 QBs of All-Time list recently, Namath nor Manning weren't on that list.

Warner was an elite quarterback for 3 or so years over his career, not like Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning, Favre, and others. He's more in that second tier of good but not great/elite QBs like Cunningham, Green, Brees (though Brees could easily jump into that upper category), Theismann, etc

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Jose Bautista, John Axford, Heath Bell and Placido Polanco.

Jose Bautista was established in the majors by age 25, and had at solid minor league numbers pretty much every step of the way.

John Axford didn't start his minor league career until age 24, and was a fast mover. He was in the show by age 26 and did well from day 1. I also don't know if relievers are that analgous to position players either.

Heath Bell took a long time to get to the show, but his minor league numbers look great. He certainly didn't struggle, nor was nondescript, and in retrospect probably should have been called up sooner to much sooner than he was.

Polanco made his MLB debut at age 22, got significant playing time in the majors at age 23, and was a regular by age 24. He was an extremely fast mover in the minors, so I really don't see this one at all.

[tiger337]

None of the basketball and football players are relevant at all. Without looking at the numbers, the relievers are not very relevant, because it's more common for relievers to blossom late than position players.

Bautita was good in the minors. Polanco was not very good in the minors, but made it to the majors at a pretty young age which tells me he had MLB tools that impressed baseball people. Berry is just some guy who has been floating around the lower minors for years and didn't even make it too AAA until a late age. I'm looking for another example like him.

The fact is the odds are heavily stacked against Berry. You can root for him to beat the odds. That is part of what makes sports fun, but you can't blame the Tigers for not wanting to use up a lot of at bats finding out whether he is a rare exception.

[DET Mr Malefic]

Reading this thread is somewhat painful. It seems in many cases people are advancing arguments for the sake of advancing an argument, going well out of their way to compare apples to screwdrivers and using convoluted and broken analogies.

Other sports are not the same as baseball.

Comparing people who are picked low in the draft to people who were bad professionally for a long time is not the same thing. Pujols was picked in the 13th round, but when he actually began playing professionally he quickly proved to be superhuman and was promoted accordingly, and the vast majority of people did not object.

One player that comes to mind who was bad professionally for a long time and became great was Magglio, but even Magglio came with his own asterisk: He was one of those players --- And every organization has two or three of them at any given time --- That scouts love and insist will be great even though his performance has been consistently horrible. In the recent past the Tigers version of these players have included Cale Iorg and Wilken Ramirez (and for a brief snapshot in time, it appeared they may have been right on Ramirez, but alas.....). At present you might say that Audy Ciriaco is such a player. In any event, Magglio was one of those guys, and the scouts ended up being WAY right on him. However, Quintin Berry is NOT one of those guys.

But anyway, I'm digressing. Pretty much everybody recognizes that Berry came up at a time that the Tigers were in a bad spot, and he performed admirably at a time when we REALLY needed it. Pretty much everybody is pleased with that and happy about it and acknowledges it. People who are saying that he's not a starter now don't "hate" him or have anything against him, it's just recognizing reality, trying to argue that people hate him is like if I said "I don't think Stephen Hawking will win the Boston Marathon next year" and the response being "Well he COULD. You don't KNOW that he couldn't! Why do you hate Stephen Hawking so much?"

Yes, it's theoretically possible that Berry could be a good starter, but be realistic, how good are those chances? And just because the chances are above 0%, does that mean the Tigers organization should feel obligated to explore them? He's been a pro for six years, and been bad for all six. He came up to the Majors, had about a week and a half of good performance, then promptly went back to being bad. And this is why he's on the bench. Not hate. Not favoritism for another player. Just because that's how it goes. It doesn't matter if he's not having fun (if he's not --- Without knowing him, I imagine he probably is having fun because he worked really really hard to get to where he's at and probably feels happy just to be on a major league roster, for however long he gets to be on one) because he's not being paid to have fun, and he's being paid quite well at the moment. As bad as I think Delmon Young is, Young plays over him because he was a top rated prospect before the draft, a dynamite minor leaguer (he hit over .300 at every level and was a 317/362/519 hitter in ~1500 PAs) and has had a decent MLB season in his past while still being on the right side of 30. Ryan Raburn has had multiple good to great minor league seasons, was the Tigers second best hitter on an 86 win team in the recent past, and is at least Berry's equal defensively (in the outfield) if not his superior. Brennan Boesch is among the aforementioned class of players that the scouts love even though he's only really had one full professional season when he's done anything --- Though he's shown flashes of that ability at the major league level for modestly extended periods at times. And this is why those guys are playing ahead of Berry. Not hate, just track record.

No, I, nor anybody else KNOWS for 100% certain that Berry would be a terrible starter. Not even Leyland or Dombrowski know that. However, that's a horrible standard to even attempt to apply in defense of your argument that he should be starting. It can be reasonably deduced that he won't be based on his track record, including his record with the Tigers. It doesn't make me hate him or not appreciate what he did in Jackson's absence to point that out. I'm sure Leyland will pick and choose spots for him to give him the best chance to succeed. That's the role he's probably best suited for right now anyway. With the way injuries have been going and the fact that it's possible that Raburn is done as a Major League player, it's possible he'll get another chance later in the year to start anyway. No need to force the issue with a guy who right now hasn't been such a superlative that he's earned the right to force his way into a starter's role. The fact of the matter is, when he was brought up he was supposed to go right back down in a week. That he's still on the roster is proof enough that he showed something that impressed management because they kept him around. They kept him over Raburn just a little bit ago. Baby steps guys, baby steps. It's not like he came up and blew the doors down like Bryce Harper or something.

[Beantown Marty]

Reading this thread is somewhat painful. It seems in many cases people are advancing arguments for the sake of advancing an argument, going well out of their way to compare apples to screwdrivers and using convoluted and broken analogies.

You must be new.

[mickeyb105]

Please, dont' try to tout Bleacher Report as a great source for opinion mining. It is citizen journalism--you get great insight there mixed in with some of the worst "published" pieces of garbage ever.

I probably wouldn't physically fight you for calling out my reading comp, but the ACT said I pretty much crushed that part of the test.

Remember how bad the Lions were when Millen was in Detroit? The Saints were on par with that level of awful when Manning was there. Playing QB with no offenisve line never looked like any fun to me.

Namath had some of the best QB skills on the planet until his body betrayed him. He may have gotten into the HOF on his lone championship and media exposure, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great quarterback before his body was pushed too far. Watch the Joe Namath special on HBO sometime if you really want an appreciation for how hurt that guy played.

Stats do not always transcend era.

Warner was a very good quarterback for six years, it just wasn't six years consecutively.

And thank you for admitting Warner wasn't average, that was all I really wanted. Nobody is putting him up there with the immortals, just give the guy credit for being really good and more than just average.

[DET Mr Malefic]

You must be new.

Touche'!

[JustinCylander]

Please, dont' try to tout Bleacher Report as a great source for opinion mining. It is citizen journalism--you get great insight there mixed in with some of the worst "published" pieces of garbage ever.

I probably wouldn't physically fight you for calling out my reading comp, but the ACT said I pretty much crushed that part of the test.

Remember how bad the Lions were when Millen was in Detroit? The Saints were on par with that level of awful when Manning was there. Playing QB with no offenisve line never looked like any fun to me.

Namath had some of the best QB skills on the planet until his body betrayed him. He may have gotten into the HOF on his lone championship and media exposure, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great quarterback before his body was pushed too far. Watch the Joe Namath special on HBO sometime if you really want an appreciation for how hurt that guy played.

Stats do not always transcend era.

Warner was a very good quarterback for six years, it just wasn't six years consecutively.

And thank you for admitting Warner wasn't average, that was all I really wanted. Nobody is putting him up there with the immortals, just give the guy credit for being really good and more than just average.

Six years?!? He only had 5 seasons where he played 15 games or more. He was elite good in 99 and 01, and he was very good in 08 and 09, but he was really average the rest of his career.

[tiger337]

Reading this thread is somewhat painful. It seems in many cases people are advancing arguments for the sake of advancing an argument, going well out of their way to compare apples to screwdrivers and using convoluted and broken analogies.

Other sports are not the same as baseball.

Comparing people who are picked low in the draft to people who were bad professionally for a long time is not the same thing. Pujols was picked in the 13th round, but when he actually began playing professionally he quickly proved to be superhuman and was promoted accordingly, and the vast majority of people did not object.

One player that comes to mind who was bad professionally for a long time and became great was Magglio, but even Magglio came with his own asterisk: He was one of those players --- And every organization has two or three of them at any given time --- That scouts love and insist will be great even though his performance has been consistently horrible. In the recent past the Tigers version of these players have included Cale Iorg and Wilken Ramirez (and for a brief snapshot in time, it appeared they may have been right on Ramirez, but alas.....). At present you might say that Audy Ciriaco is such a player. In any event, Magglio was one of those guys, and the scouts ended up being WAY right on him. However, Quintin Berry is NOT one of those guys.

But anyway, I'm digressing. Pretty much everybody recognizes that Berry came up at a time that the Tigers were in a bad spot, and he performed admirably at a time when we REALLY needed it. Pretty much everybody is pleased with that and happy about it and acknowledges it. People who are saying that he's not a starter now don't "hate" him or have anything against him, it's just recognizing reality, trying to argue that people hate him is like if I said "I don't think Stephen Hawking will win the Boston Marathon next year" and the response being "Well he COULD. You don't KNOW that he couldn't! Why do you hate Stephen Hawking so much?"

Yes, it's theoretically possible that Berry could be a good starter, but be realistic, how good are those chances? And just because the chances are above 0%, does that mean the Tigers organization should feel obligated to explore them? He's been a pro for six years, and been bad for all six. He came up to the Majors, had about a week and a half of good performance, then promptly went back to being bad. And this is why he's on the bench. Not hate. Not favoritism for another player. Just because that's how it goes. It doesn't matter if he's not having fun (if he's not --- Without knowing him, I imagine he probably is having fun because he worked really really hard to get to where he's at and probably feels happy just to be on a major league roster, for however long he gets to be on one) because he's not being paid to have fun, and he's being paid quite well at the moment. As bad as I think Delmon Young is, Young plays over him because he was a top rated prospect before the draft, a dynamite minor leaguer (he hit over .300 at every level and was a 317/362/519 hitter in ~1500 PAs) and has had a decent MLB season in his past while still being on the right side of 30. Ryan Raburn has had multiple good to great minor league seasons, was the Tigers second best hitter on an 86 win team in the recent past, and is at least Berry's equal defensively (in the outfield) if not his superior. Brennan Boesch is among the aforementioned class of players that the scouts love even though he's only really had one full professional season when he's done anything --- Though he's shown flashes of that ability at the major league level for modestly extended periods at times. And this is why those guys are playing ahead of Berry. Not hate, just track record.

No, I, nor anybody else KNOWS for 100% certain that Berry would be a terrible starter. Not even Leyland or Dombrowski know that. However, that's a horrible standard to even attempt to apply in defense of your argument that he should be starting. It can be reasonably deduced that he won't be based on his track record, including his record with the Tigers. It doesn't make me hate him or not appreciate what he did in Jackson's absence to point that out. I'm sure Leyland will pick and choose spots for him to give him the best chance to succeed. That's the role he's probably best suited for right now anyway. With the way injuries have been going and the fact that it's possible that Raburn is done as a Major League player, it's possible he'll get another chance later in the year to start anyway. No need to force the issue with a guy who right now hasn't been such a superlative that he's earned the right to force his way into a starter's role. The fact of the matter is, when he was brought up he was supposed to go right back down in a week. That he's still on the roster is proof enough that he showed something that impressed management because they kept him around. They kept him over Raburn just a little bit ago. Baby steps guys, baby steps. It's not like he came up and blew the doors down like Bryce Harper or something.

Awesome post. No need to go any further.

[Danjo]

So far today Berry is 3 for 3 with 2 stolen bases.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

So far today Berry is 3 for 3 with 2 stolen bases.

If you want me to take note of the upcoming 0 for 4s and 1 for 5s, I'm game.

[tiger337]

So far today Berry is 3 for 3 with 2 stolen bases.

Good job by Leyland picking spots. He used Raburn against the three LH starters and it worked out. The he used Berry, who had been struggling the last couple of weeks, versus the RHP and it worked.

[Hart]

If you want to make the argument that Berry is not the long term answer based on his minor league stats, then that is fair and I would agree with that. But the debate is who should be playing most days for the Tigers between Berry, Boesch, Raburn, and Young...and Berry wins that battle right now in my mind. It may be different in a month if he goes into an extended slump but the slump he has been in recently is nothing compared to the slump of the three other players mentioned for playing time. If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

[Oblong]

4 hits...

[DET Mr Malefic]

If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

I think this is a reasonable position, personally.

[tiger337]

I would also keep using Berry against RHP until he shows he can't hit them. If they can capture lightning in a bottle, then great.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

I have no issue with a platoon role until he cools off, but I don't think that was the position those supporting Berry have taken in this thread.

[Danjo]

When is the last time Raburn went 5 for 5?

[Danjo]

That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

[sir gene kingsale]

In a few years people will be looking back on this year as a historically great year for rookie outfielders, with mega prospects Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, and Quintin Berry.

[mickeyb105]

That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

Exactly.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

If only Ryan Raburn wasn't in the majors, Quintin Berry would be playing every day, including starting against lefties.

[mickeyb105]

Six years?!? He only had 5 seasons where he played 15 games or more. He was elite good in 99 and 01, and he was very good in 08 and 09, but he was really average the rest of his career.

Since when do you have to play in 15 or more games in the NFL for it to count?

- 2000 Warner played in 11 games where his team went 8-3--He led the league in SEVEN offensive categories, threw for over 3400 yards (over 300 ypg) and had a passer rating of 98.3. That's an elite year.

-2007 Warner starts 11 of 13 games played, where his team went a 5-6 and ranked 28th against the pass and 9th against the run. When your team is that bad against the pass, you're not going to have a successful season. Warner threw for over 3400 yards, 27 TD and 17 INT, and two of his games came in relief of then-golden boy Matt Leinart. These aren't elite numbers but they are boarderline pro-bowl numbers if you project them out to your magic number of 15 games. How many seasons would Lions fans have killed for a QB to have had stats like this before Stafford?

Warner had six prolific NFL seasons, bottom line.

[mickeyb105]

If only Ryan Raburn wasn't in the majors, Quintin Berry would be playing every day, including starting against lefties.

Chapman was supposed to be invincible when we faced him, and Berry slapped a nice hit off him.

At least he has the option of laying down a bunt against the very occasional tough lefty starter like Sale or Price.

[Hart]

That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

Raburn has had three strait years of very bad first halfs and very good second halfs. The Tigers keep making the same mistake that the next year will be the one where Raburn puts it all together. I would not be at all surprised if this the 4th year in a row where Raburn heats up in the second half. I do believe he has some value to this team. But Tigers cannot make the same mistake again next offseason and count him as an everyday player.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Chapman was supposed to be invincible when we faced him, and Berry slapped a nice hit off him.

At least he has the option of laying down a bunt against the very occasional tough lefty starter like Sale or Price.

You convinced me - he got a hit off of Chapman and can bunt against lefties.