Are big changes coming?

[toadhunter911]

I sort of understand where your going, but let me just plead a bit of patence on this. Pujols hasn't exactly torn it up for the Angels and Dunn was a huge bust his first year in the AL last year. I do understand the idea that Fielder, Cabrera and Martinez DOES tie up a lot of funds, but look what the Tigers have for the middle of the order for career average per year!



Miguel Cabrera
33 HR's 119 RBI's .317 AVG. .394 OBP .555 SLG .949 OPS

Prince Fielder
37 HR's 106 RBI's .284 Avg .389 OBP .539 SLG .928 OPS

Victor Martinez
20 HR's 104 RBI's .303 BA .370 OBP .469 SLG .840 OPS


For just this next year, the Tigers have to decide what to do about Valverde ($9M, free agent 2013), D. Young ($6.75M yes, he's gone next year), Inge's contract will be off the books for 2013 ($5M-ish), also the Tigers may choose to not extend a contract to Raburn (made $2.1M this year, Arb 3 for 2013) and might trade away Scherzer (made $3.75M this year, Arb 2 for 2013 season) or Porcello ($3.1M this year, Arb 2 for 2013).

Just Young and Inge's contracts will save the Tigers nearly $12M and if the Tigers cut ties with Valverde and no not offer Raburn a contract for 2013, now that number rises to around $23M savings so for without Inge, Young, Valverde, Raburn. If the Tigers trade away and do not take in more salary for either Scherzer or Porcello, the savings going into 2013 might be closer to $24M-$26M (or more).

Before you say it, YES, the Tigers will have to pay larger salary to Arb 1 players like Avila, Fister, Boesch, Jackson and Arb 2 year players like Kelly (maybe?) and Coke going into the 2013 season, but my point is that the Tigers can still keep the top money players and keep a good core together and yet clear a lot of payroll if needed for 2013.

I understand the frustration with this team, but I think it will take a full year figure out what this team can really do and what needs to be done to fix it AND, the Tigers will have some resources going forward money wise to fix it....


(Edit, also if your wondering, both V-Mart's contract ($12M in 2014) and Verlander's contract ($20M in 2014) expires at the end of the 2014 season...)

Nice. A level headed, well reasoned post...

[tiger337]

I sort of understand where your going, but let me just plead a bit of patence on this. Pujols hasn't exactly torn it up for the Angels and Dunn was a huge bust his first year in the AL last year. I do understand the idea that Fielder, Cabrera and Martinez DOES tie up a lot of funds, but look what the Tigers have for the middle of the order for career average per year!



Miguel Cabrera
33 HR's 119 RBI's .317 AVG. .394 OBP .555 SLG .949 OPS

Prince Fielder
37 HR's 106 RBI's .284 Avg .389 OBP .539 SLG .928 OPS

Victor Martinez
20 HR's 104 RBI's .303 BA .370 OBP .469 SLG .840 OPS


For just this next year, the Tigers have to decide what to do about Valverde ($9M, free agent 2013), D. Young ($6.75M yes, he's gone next year), Inge's contract will be off the books for 2013 ($5M-ish), also the Tigers may choose to not extend a contract to Raburn (made $2.1M this year, Arb 3 for 2013) and might trade away Scherzer (made $3.75M this year, Arb 2 for 2013 season) or Porcello ($3.1M this year, Arb 2 for 2013).

Just Young and Inge's contracts will save the Tigers nearly $12M and if the Tigers cut ties with Valverde and no not offer Raburn a contract for 2013, now that number rises to around $23M savings so for without Inge, Young, Valverde, Raburn. If the Tigers trade away and do not take in more salary for either Scherzer or Porcello, the savings going into 2013 might be closer to $24M-$26M (or more).

Before you say it, YES, the Tigers will have to pay larger salaries to Arb 1 players like Avila, Fister, Boesch, Jackson and Arb 2 year players like Kelly (maybe?) and Coke going into the 2013 season, but my point is that the Tigers can still keep the top money players and keep a good core together and yet clear a lot of payroll if needed for 2013.

I understand the frustration with this team, but I think it will take a full year figure out what this team can really do and what needs to be done to fix it AND, the Tigers will have some resources going forward money wise to fix it....


(Edit, also if your wondering, both V-Mart's contract ($12M in 2014) and Verlander's contract ($20M in 2014) expires at the end of the 2014 season...)

You are right. The offense heavy defense sacrificing approach could work if they can fill in the right parts around them. It's not a matter of patience on my part. I don't like the way the roster is constructed and would prefer to see a more balanced approach. I don't expect that to happen though. I believe they will keep all three players and try to work the right complementary players around them. This is not usually DD's strength, but it will be intersting to see what he comes up with.

[Oblong]

I don't see Fielder getting traded while Ilitch is alive. That would be a slap on the face to him

[Euphdude]

I don't see Fielder getting traded while Ilitch is alive. That would be a slap on the face to him

I think you're right. Fielder's signing was Ilitch's doing, and he will remain loyal to him. Once there is a new owner anything will be possible.

[Gehringer_2]

Not sure if "want" is the right word, I was just wondering what the possibilities would be. I will say if they traded him I wouldn't really care. It's not like they gave anything up to get him. It'd be like Marion Hossa being on the Wings for one season.

If you are a team with more money than development skill, signing a free agent, then trading him while picking up enough of his salary to make it attractive is one way to turn money into young players. Kind of a backasswards way, but a way.....

[Nastradamus]

I can't imagine getting an offer for Fielder anyways and if we did, it would be purely salary dump I'm guessing. The Dodgers might want him, but have nothing to offer. Who else would pay him? I'd love to get a SS from the Rangers some how, but its a longshot at best.

[STLTiger69]

I can't imagine getting an offer for Fielder anyways and if we did, it would be purely salary dump I'm guessing. The Dodgers might want him, but have nothing to offer. Who else would pay him? I'd love to get a SS from the Rangers some how, but its a longshot at best.

Your right, perhaps the Tigers should trade another player instead who is making $2M less this year than than the "unwanted" Fielder and is only under team control until 2015. Of course if the Tigers traded Miguel Cabrera I'm sure it would be mostly a salary dump, but who would want Cabrera?


Nastradamus, I respect your opinion but I just am sort of beside myself in twitching anger on the "trade Fielder" talk. Before Fielder, Cabrera was at 1B and Inge was at 3B. I don't care how you spell it, the Tigers are a better team with Fielder at 1B and Cabrera replacing Inge at 3B. If you think 2B has been a unmittigated disaster this year, wrap your mind around a 2012 season without a Fielder signing where at 2B Raburn is hitting .146 and Santiago batting .198 and at 3B, Inge hitting .100 and Kelly .174 and Worth coming to rescue hitting a hot .184 to take over 3B for the Tigers for the forseeable future.

I understand that Fielder may never eclipse Cabrera as far as being a better talent. But I also realize how hard it is to obtain a talent like Fielder and the fact that it only cost the Tigers money (Mr. Ilitch's money to be more specific) and a first round draft pick this year, was to me a pretty good deal when viewed from a longer term. To put this in perspective, if Cabrera was not on this Tiger team (and may not be after his contract expires in 2015), Fielder would be the best offensive player the Tigers would have hands down.....

[Oblong]

and he'll be a 32 year old DH due $24 million a year for 5 more years. Like Ryan Howard now. Think the Phillies would like out of that deal?

So barring a trade, we're looking at, best case scenario, an infield defense of Cabrera and Fielder and whatever guys we can put out at 2B and SS. Don't see any in the wings... FA is out of the question since we've got about 80 million in 4 players for the next 2 years.

[tiger337]

I'm beside myself twitching in anger watching the Tigers embarrassing team defense every night with the realization they probably won't be able to do much about it for the next couple of years!

[Shelton]

Prince is not as bad defensively as he has looked this year. I think at the end of the year he will be viewed as having been bad, rather than horrendous. You can get by with bad first base defense.

Regarding four players adding up to 80 million, who are they?

[STLTiger69]

and he'll be a 32 year old DH due $24 million a year for 5 more years. Like Ryan Howard now. Think the Phillies would like out of that deal?

So barring a trade, we're looking at, best case scenario, an infield defense of Cabrera and Fielder and whatever guys we can put out at 2B and SS. Don't see any in the wings... FA is out of the question since we've got about 80 million in 4 players for the next 2 years.

#1 Illitch approved a team payroll of $130M for this year. How would you spend the remaining $40M-$50M for the next two years?

#2 If your worried about infield defense, then resign Inge to play 3B, get Adam Everett to play SS and move Peralta to 2B (or switch him to 3B and Inge to 3B- I don't care...) and think about how awesome that team will be in preventing runs and how many more games the Tigers will win because of it. (NOT).

#3 Like Ryan Howard now? Did Fielder tear an Achilles' tendon too and miss all of the 2012 season so far like Ryan Howard? How much would you pay Ryan Howard who's averaged PER YEAR (over a 8 year career)

45 HR's 136 RBI's .275 BA .368 OBP .560 SLG .928 OPS

Miguel Cabrera's career average per year is;

33 HR's 119 RBI's .317 Avg .394 OBP .555 SLG .949 OPS

I don't think any team "wants" a player injured regardless if it's Victor Martinez or Ryan Howard, but to say the Phillies would somehow "like out" of deal with a guy who averages 45 home runs and 136 RBI's per year is just wrong.

[tiger337]

How bad is the Tigers defense hurting them?

Tigers Fielding Independent Pitching:

FIP 1ST in AL
xFIP 2ND
SIERA 1ST

Tigers fielding
UZR LAST
DRS LAST
Total Zone LAST
DER LAST

Overall Runs Allowed
11TH.

[Oblong]

Prince is not as bad defensively as he has looked this year. I think at the end of the year he will be viewed as having been bad, rather than horrendous. You can get by with bad first base defense.

Regarding four players adding up to 80 million, who are they?

Fielder $23
Cabrera $21
Verlander $20
Martinez $13

Sorry, it's only $77 million

The point is, for the 2012-2014. We have a DH who can't catch anymore and a 1B who can't catch either. A 3B that, being generous, can be described as not being as bad as we thought. Who knows what at 2B, and a limited shortstop. That's not encouraging. The infield defense this year has been pretty bad to watch. They extend the innings of our starters, stretching our bullpen. It's a softball team.

[toadhunter911]

#1 Illitch approved a team payroll of $130M for this year. How would you spend the remaining $40M-$50M for the next two years?

#2 If your worried about infield defense, then resign Inge to play 3B, get Adam Everett to play SS and move Peralta to 2B (or switch him to 3B and Inge to 3B- I don't care...) and think about how awesome that team will be in preventing runs and how many more games the Tigers will win because of it. (NOT).

#3 Like Ryan Howard now? Did Fielder tear an Achilles' tendon too and miss all of the 2012 season so far like Ryan Howard? How much would you pay Ryan Howard who's averaged PER YEAR (over a 8 year career)

45 HR's 136 RBI's .275 BA .368 OBP .560 SLG .928 OPS

Miguel Cabrera's career average per year is;

33 HR's 119 RBI's .317 Avg .394 OBP .555 SLG .949 OPS

I don't think any team "wants" a player injured regardless if it's Victor Martinez or Ryan Howard, but to say the Phillies would somehow "like out" of deal with a guy who averages 45 home runs and 136 RBI's per year is just wrong.

Besides that, when Fielder is 32, he will be DH'ing, unlike Howard, who plays for an NL team. In fact, I think he'll be DH'ing by 2014.

[Hart]

Prince is not as bad defensively as he has looked this year. I think at the end of the year he will be viewed as having been bad, rather than horrendous. You can get by with bad first base defense.

Regarding four players adding up to 80 million, who are they?

Maybe true. But also consider that is long as Fielder is at first base, we will also have a well below average fielder at third base. Right now, Fielder and Cabrera are ranked pretty much at the bottom among fielders at their positions by fangraphs. I don't think this is flukey and things are likely to remain this way as long as both players stay at their current positions. This puts a ton of extra pressure on your pitchers.

[Hart]

What happens if the Tigers are 10 games out or more by August? How far do they have to fall for DD to consider moving Prince to DH.

I agree with most of you it is not Illitch or DD's style to change course on the original plan for the corner infield. But at some point, don't you have to try something different to try and win some games? Unfortunately, I think management will bank on the return of Victor Martinez next year as the solution...which in my mind is a recipe for failure. So we probably have to suffer through two years of this bull crap before serious changes are made.

[spikesglaring]

I pretty much stopped with the games two weeks ago because this team isn't fun to watch. I was hoping things would change and I could actually start caring again, but this team is really horrible. Anyone who is still optimistic and believes the Tigers are a playoff team is a much more optimistic person than normal.

I'm about one month away from saying "sell" and praying we get a top 10 draft pick.

[STLTiger69]

What happens if the Tigers are 10 games out or more by August? How far do they have to fall for DD to consider moving Prince to DH.

I agree with most of you it is not Illitch or DD's style to change course on the original plan for the corner infield. But at some point, don't you have to try something different to try and win some games? Unfortunately, I think management will bank on the return of Victor Martinez next year as the solution...which in my mind is a recipe for failure. So we probably have to suffer through two years of this bull crap before serious changes are made.

So Prince Fielder's defense is the problem? Just stick Fielder at DH and we'd be winning 100 games?

[MDMAzing]

time to trade turner for a young OF that doesnt suck.

[Gehringer_2]

So Prince Fielder's defense is the problem? Just stick Fielder at DH and we'd be winning 100 games?

the best we can do this season for the D is get Raburn off of 2nd - which is done. But can Worth hit enough to support Santiago's weak bat?

Then get Boesch out of Rf. That might happen when Dirks and AJax return - IF, and it's a huge one, Berry can hold his own with the bat - so that one is not a given.

If Victor comes back, he's probably an even worse 1b than Fielder, so there is no gain there if you do move Prince to DH. We still have no other 3b and too many DHs so there is no prospect whatever that Cabby goes back to 1st this yr - not to mention he isn't that bad.

Finally, they have to go out and find a pair of real middle infielders on the off season or trade for one of them this season (I would not re-sign Peralta - he could be a good player, but is a bad fit next to Cabby - try to move him at the deadline if we are out of it), if we can even stay close enough to make it worth the extra cost of doing a trade before the off-season.

We could survive Cabby and Prince with strong middle IFs and OFs, but we are probably 3 new and unidentified players away from there right now (2b, SS, and a corner OF)

[kdog]

There are no parts to sell. Nobody wants our junk and we aren't trading good young players or vets under long term deals. If they build the team right, they can contend next year.

[Buddha]

This year is over. They'll be alright next year if they can get some better fielders and some better luck.

[tiger337]

the best we can do this season for the D is get Raburn off of 2nd - which is done. But can Worth hit enough to support Santiago's weak bat?

Then get Boesch out of Rf. That might happen when Dirks and AJax return - IF, and it's a huge one, Berry can hold his own with the bat - so that one is not a given.

If Victor comes back, he's probably an even worse 1b than Fielder, so there is no gain there if you do move Prince to DH. We still have no other 3b and too many DHs so there is no prospect whatever that Cabby goes back to 1st this yr - not to mention he isn't that bad.

Finally, they have to go out and find a pair of real middle infielders on the off season or trade for one of them this season (I would not re-sign Peralta - he could be a good player, but is a bad fit next to Cabby - try to move him at the deadline if we are out of it), if we can even stay close enough to make it worth the extra cost of doing a trade before the off-season.

We could survive Cabby and Prince with strong middle IFs and OFs, but we are probably 3 new and unidentified players away from there right now (2b, SS, and a corner OF)

I agree with this. I would be OK with Fielder and Cabrera at first and third if they have good defense at all other positions, especially up the middle. I hope they let Peralta go, but I suspect they won't. I think he can help a team, but doesn't fit the Tigers anymore.

[john doe]

the best we can do this season for the D is get Raburn off of 2nd - which is done. But can Worth hit enough to support Santiago's weak bat?

Then get Boesch out of Rf. That might happen when Dirks and AJax return - IF, and it's a huge one, Berry can hold his own with the bat - so that one is not a given.

If Victor comes back, he's probably an even worse 1b than Fielder, so there is no gain there if you do move Prince to DH. We still have no other 3b and too many DHs so there is no prospect whatever that Cabby goes back to 1st this yr - not to mention he isn't that bad.

Finally, they have to go out and find a pair of real middle infielders on the off season or trade for one of them this season (I would not re-sign Peralta - he could be a good player, but is a bad fit next to Cabby - try to move him at the deadline if we are out of it), if we can even stay close enough to make it worth the extra cost of doing a trade before the off-season.

We could survive Cabby and Prince with strong middle IFs and OFs, but we are probably 3 new and unidentified players away from there right now (2b, SS, and a corner OF)

This, I couldn't agree more.

[TheCouga]

We're not losing this year because of where people are playing. We're losing because the players we have aren't playing up to their career averages. Shuffling the lineup/defense around would have gotten us an extra win or two at most so far.

The bullpen blew a handful of games early on. The offense has cost us plenty of games along the way (no reason to put up only one run against one of the AL's worst pitchers in Ubaldo Jimenez). The defense has surely cost us some games, but that's because a bunch of guys have taken a step back defensively. Prince, Boesch, and Peralta were all better defensively last year. Injuries have also added to this.

Everyone wants to blame the GM or the manager, but the blame rests solely on the players. I think they're all pressing and are handling the pressure of expectations poorly. Ultimately, it's not the manager's fault if the players don't perform. It's the players' fault.

With that said, I'm sick of following this team. Ubaldo Jimenez sucks. No excuse to not figure out how to hit him. But it's neither DD's nor Leyland's fault. Every single analyst picked us to win the division given the players DD assembled -- so I find it hard to blame DD. The players just need to figure it out.

[STLTiger69]

Look, let me help out a bit and point out something about the Tigers offense and the fellow forum members can decide what they want for themselves.



Exibit A:

Name the top five OPS hitters the Tigers have right now for the 2012 season shall we?

If you guessed Cabrera (.907) and Fielder (.899), congrats. Now if you put the correct order as;
1) Jackson (.958)
2) Cabrera (.907)
3) Fielder (.899)
4) Dirks (.894)
5) Berry (.863)
6) Laird (.846)

Give yourselves a pat on the head.

Think about this, some of our best players OPS wise so far this year (Not including Cabrera and Fielder) are Jackson, Dirks, Berry and Laird!

Exibit B

2011 stats vs 2012 stats BY PLAYER! To make this easier, I've color coded the names, RED means the players OPS is worse this year than in 2011 and GREEN means better than 2012. Also notice the two players that are on the DL right now....

Avg. OBP SLG OPS

Austin Jackson
2011
.249 .317 .374 .690

2012
.331 .414 .544 .958

Andy Dirks
2011
.251 .296 .406 .703

2012
.328 .379 .515 .894

Brennan Boesch
2011
.283 .341 .458 .799

2012
.229 .264 .346 .610

Miguel Cabrera
2011
.344 .448 .586 1.033

2012
.318 .371 .536 .907

Prince Fielder
2011
.299 .415 .566 .981

2012
.319 .382 .517 .899

Delmon Young
2011
.268 .302 .393 .695

2012
.267 .307 .394 .702

Alex Avila
2011
.295 .389 .506 .895

2012
.254 .342 .435 .777

Jhonny Peralta
2011
.299 .345 .478 .824

2012
.247 .328 .373 .702

Ryan Raburn
2011
.256 .297 .432 .729

2012
.146 .209 .211 .420


Ramon Santiago
2011
.260 .311 .384 .695

2012
.198 .283 .284 .567

Now, think about this, OPS difference between 2011 and 2012 by player!

Jackson +.268
Dirks +.191
Boesch -.198
Cabrera -.123
Fielder -.082
Young +.007
Avila -.118
Peralta -.122
Raburn -.309
Santiago -.128


By now, I hope that it is apparent that much of the Tiger team is not doing what they did last year offensively and wait, here's the best part, the two stand outs for 2012 so far are on the DL right now. This shouldn't surprise anyone that the Tigers are struggling right now and I don't think defensive lapses are the major issue with the Tigers losing right now....

But we are free to disagree.....

[Tigers4F4]

Over 33,000, mostly loyal Tiger fans tonight. Not being "fair weather," but just showing upper management that it is less painful watching from the comfort of a home television broadcast ... can switch off at any time and the effort of not getting caught in traffic and other late night issues instead of going into downtown Detroit.

STAY AT HOME AND LEAVE A MESSAGE.
Mr. Ilitch should be seriously telling DD to tell JL to sack at least McLendon - NOW!

[tiger337]

The offense has not been good and it's indeed one of the main problems. However, I don't know how anybody can watch the games this year and not see that the fielding is a HUGE problem. I'm stunned by how bad it is. I've never seen a Tigers team give the opponents more extra outs. It's killing the pitching and I can't pass it off as 'well, I expected it to be bad so it's not the problem" I don't think they can win consistently with the kind of defense they have displayed this year unless their offense is Ranger-like.

[TheCouga]

Over 33,000, mostly loyal Tiger fans tonight. Not being "fair weather," but just showing upper management that it is less painful watching from the comfort of a home television broadcast ... can switch off at any time and the effort of not getting caught in traffic and other late night issues instead of going into downtown Detroit.

STAY AT HOME AND LEAVE A MESSAGE.
Mr. Ilitch should be seriously telling DD to tell JL to sack at least McLendon - NOW!

Staying home will only send the message that it's stupid to expand payroll to sign All-Stars. That's not the message I'd want to send.

[TheCouga]

The offense has not been good and it's indeed one of the main problems. However, I don't know how anybody can watch the games this year and not see that the fielding is a HUGE problem. I'm stunned by how bad it is. I've never seen a Tigers team give the opponents more extra outs. It's killing the pitching and I can't pass it off as 'well, I expected it to be bad so it's not the problem" I don't think they can win consistently with the kind of defense they have displayed this year unless their offense is Ranger-like.

The stunningly bad part of the defense isn't what you expected, though. Cabrera is more than passable at 3B. It's Peralta, Boesch, Fielder, and whoever is at 2B that have been really horrible. You'd have to think this will improve, though.

[STLTiger69]

Over 33,000, mostly loyal Tiger fans tonight. Not being "fair weather," but just showing upper management that it is less painful watching from the comfort of a home television broadcast ... can switch off at any time and the effort of not getting caught in traffic and other late night issues instead of going into downtown Detroit.

STAY AT HOME AND LEAVE A MESSAGE.
Mr. Ilitch should be seriously telling DD to tell JL to sack at least McLendon - NOW!

"Fear cannot be banished, but it can be calm and without panic; it can be mitigated by reason and evaluation."

-Vannevar Bush

The 2011 World Series winning St. Louis Cardinals were were 10½ games out with 31 games left to play, and then 8½ back with 21 to play and on the last day of the season the Cardinals made it into the play offs.

And to my knowledge, they didn't even fire a grounds keeper during that time....

[tiger337]

The stunningly bad part of the defense isn't what you expected, though. Cabrera is more than passable at 3B. It's Peralta, Boesch, Fielder, and whoever is at 2B that have been really horrible. You'd have to think this will improve, though.

I don't expect it to improve much without replacements. I think Boesch and Fielder are just bad fielders. Maybe Peralta will get a little better, but he's not that good of a defender either. Cabrera is better than expected, but still in the bottom third of third basemen. Santiago and Worth are better than Raburn, but Santiago has slowed down a lot.

[Oblong]

The offense has not been good and it's indeed one of the main problems. However, I don't know how anybody can watch the games this year and not see that the fielding is a HUGE problem. I'm stunned by how bad it is. I've never seen a Tigers team give the opponents more extra outs. It's killing the pitching and I can't pass it off as 'well, I expected it to be bad so it's not the problem" I don't think they can win consistently with the kind of defense they have displayed this year unless their offense is Ranger-like.

this is how I feel. I only feel confident on the most routine of plays. Every thing else is a crapshoot.

Boesch looks worse in RF this year than any year Maggs did. I've said this a lot but my seats are on the RF line, the RF is right in front of me. I get an awesome view. Maggs would take a bad route but would make the play. Boesch does the exact same thing but end up 2 steps away from the ball.

[Vonlenska]

The stunningly bad part of the defense isn't what you expected, though. Cabrera is more than passable at 3B. It's Peralta, Boesch, Fielder, and whoever is at 2B that have been really horrible. You'd have to think this will improve, though.

Actually, judging by UZR/150, Cabrera is the worst 3B in MLB at -17.3. Alex Rodriguez is 2nd worst at -4.2.

The entire Tigers roster, and ranking by UZR/150 is as follows:

1B: Fielder -9.5 18/19
2B: no qualifier, But Inge was -25.0, Worth -21.1, Raburn -12.2
3B: Cabrera -17.3 16/16
SS: Peralta +0.8 14/25
LF: no qualifier, but Kelly is +9.5, Delmon -0.6, Dirks -5.5
CF: Jackson +15.7 2/20 (Granderson is last at -31.6)
RF: Boesch -29.8 22/23

Yes I know UZR is flawed, like all defensive stats, and that you need a lot of innings really for it to mean anything, but it's not a coincidence that almost every Tigers player is, defensively, among the very worst at their position, and Boesch is incomprehensibly bad.

[ROMAD1]

How did we become the Twins? And not the good Twins that won the division all those years...

I think something is rotten somewhere...

[TheCouga]

Yes I know UZR is flawed, like all defensive stats, and that you need a lot of innings really for it to mean anything, but it's not a coincidence that almost every Tigers player is, defensively, among the very worst at their position, and Boesch is incomprehensibly bad.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Doesn't really mean much at this point, so why use it?

[TheCouga]

I don't expect it to improve much without replacements. I think Boesch and Fielder are just bad fielders. Maybe Peralta will get a little better, but he's not that good of a defender either. Cabrera is better than expected, but still in the bottom third of third basemen. Santiago and Worth are better than Raburn, but Santiago has slowed down a lot.

The thing is, they weren't this bad last year, and Fielder hasn't been this bad since his rookie year. I don't know how you lose defensive skills the way Fielder and Boesch have so far. They're both too young for age to be a factor. Maybe they're just not focused.

[Danjo]

Are we finally allowed to admit that the team just isn't very good this year? Or are we still saying that they will start playing better soon?

[Danjo]

Maybe when Dirks and Jackson get healthy again the team will really start to hit. I'm being hopeful.

[thefunk]

Maybe when Dirks and Jackson get healthy again the team will really start to hit. I'm being hopeful.

It's obvious that this team ISN'T good, but that doesn't mean we couldn't be. As another poster already stated, we start playing up to our career averages, we'll start winning games in bunches.

If we don't play well, we are not going to win.