Delmon Young arrested for fighting in NYC

[Gehringer_2]

...given that the entire basis for this discussion, is a young, millionaire, black man, it's a struggle for me to understand where his burning rage at white beggars would come from.

To be clear, the topic moved into general issues on why the law might be what it is. Delmon AFAIK is a child of the middle class or better and certainly has probably lived a life of privilege from the time he showed he could bop a baseball - no sympathy for Delmon on an individual case level on my part at least at all.

[Eric Cioe]

The US Government has done plenty of bad things, I still fail to see how this makes me, or even white people in general responsible.

Not responsible, just enjoying an advantage that wasn't earned, unless you count murdering babies and making their religion illegal earning something.

And like I said, it's not strictly racial at all. In fact I think with the culture of the dollar the way it is now that money has a whole lot more to do with it than skin color.

[Motor City Sonics]

How much pain and suffering at the hands of another race have white people suffered. I'll answer it for you. None.

Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

Just because something has been one-sided, it doesn't make it right to try and make up for it.

I was at a music conference in New York and leaving a concert there were black Muslims screaming at us and calling us oppressors. I approached one of them (which didn't make my friends happy) and told him my dad was from Belfast, he never oppressed anyone in his life and that the man accusing me of oppression was wearing a suit that cost more than my entire wardrobe. I thought he was gonna hit me. He was a racist. He knew NOTHING about me but then screams about me and then pretty much threatens me when I call him on his ********. Were black recording artists ripped off by whites in the music business? Yep, and a lot of white artists were ripped off too and that continues today.

Racism is everywhere, you can't deny it. Every adult in this country (and probably in the world) has a degree of racism in them - and if you deny this you are a liar. But we don't have to let it take control and get loud and get nasty in the degree that DY did, allegedly, on Thursday night. Do I think DY is a stone-cold overt racist? No, I don't, I think he has an anger-control issue and that is why he went nuts the way he did - he found a signpost on a guy (his yarmulke) and used that to go off and humiliate him. I had someone go off on me at a Red Wings game because I am fat. He was an Avalanche fan - going off on my weight was easy pickens........

In your life if you say you didn't think certain ugly thoughts based on someone's race/religion/looks without getting to know them - then you are a very special human being. But most of us have enough self control to repress those thoughts and to not act out like a complete friggin idiot like Delmon did.

We learned a few things here.

1 - Delmon didn't learn a thing from his 50 game suspension
2. Delmon cost himself a shipload of money because his next contract may have just been cut in half from this latest incident.
3 - Andy Dirks is a far better left fielder than Delmon
4 - Some guys don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.


Wonder why Minnesota got rid of him so cheaply? He is stupid, he is selfish, he is not committed to making this team better.

[pyrotigers]

Not responsible, just enjoying an advantage that wasn't earned, unless you count murdering babies and making their religion illegal earning something.

And like I said, it's not strictly racial at all. In fact I think with the culture of the dollar the way it is now that money has a whole lot more to do with it than skin color.

And what advantage have I gained? The right to work in retail and perhaps by the time I'm 30 have paid my own way through college and maybe just maybe have a life that doesn't make me want to blow my brains out on a regular basis? Woo, woo, how fortunate I am to have been born white in the year 1986.

Eventually you can't blame or credit the past for things, pretty much everyone on earth lives in land that has been taken in war time and time again, pretty much everyone on earth has ancestors who killed or raped or pillaged. That doesn't make them any less or any more, and it doesn't change the ancestors of the victims of it either. I'm sure my life would have been even crappier if I was born even poorer in inner city Detroit, and it still would have been my responsibility to make the best of it.

Of course everyone has natural advantages, I'm lucky I wasn't born with horrifying genetic diseases, or in sub-saharan africa, or perhaps in afghanistan, but so what? That's life, that's how it works. All we can do is do the best we can to make the world as fair as possible for everyone.

[Antrat]

I hate amputees.
Hobbling around like they own the world, or high threeing people like they have some god-given right!

[Todd]

Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

Just because something has been one-sided, it doesn't make it right to try and make up for it.

I was at a music conference in New York and leaving a concert there were black Muslims screaming at us and calling us oppressors. I approached one of them (which didn't make my friends happy) and told him my dad was from Belfast, he never oppressed anyone in his life and that the man accusing me of oppression was wearing a suit that cost more than my entire wardrobe. I thought he was gonna hit me. He was a racist. He knew NOTHING about me but then screams about me and then pretty much threatens me when I call him on his ********. Were black recording artists ripped off by whites in the music business? Yep, and a lot of white artists were ripped off too and that continues today.

Racism is everywhere, you can't deny it. Every adult in this country (and probably in the world) has a degree of racism in them - and if you deny this you are a liar. But we don't have to let it take control and get loud and get nasty in the degree that DY did, allegedly, on Thursday night. Do I think DY is a stone-cold overt racist? No, I don't, I think he has an anger-control issue and that is why he went nuts the way he did - he found a signpost on a guy (his yarmulke) and used that to go off and humiliate him. I had someone go off on me at a Red Wings game because I am fat. He was an Avalanche fan - going off on my weight was easy pickens........

In your life if you say you didn't think certain ugly thoughts based on someone's race/religion/looks without getting to know them - then you are a very special human being. But most of us have enough self control to repress those thoughts and to not act out like a complete friggin idiot like Delmon did.

We learned a few things here.

1 - Delmon didn't learn a thing from his 50 game suspension
2. Delmon cost himself a shipload of money because his next contract may have just been cut in half from this latest incident.
3 - Andy Dirks is a far better left fielder than Delmon
4 - Some guys don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.


Wonder why Minnesota got rid of him so cheaply? He is stupid, he is selfish, he is not committed to making this team better.

100% agree

[ROMAD1]

What upsets me that the mere act of rooting for the tigers now makes us anti-semites. We are worse than Hitler. ******








*****did that kill this thread?

[Truth]

Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

* As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

There was a time that Italians, Jews and Roman Catholics were not allowed, or if so, in only small numbers, to Ivy League schools. That was wrong, they were qualified in every way, except by religion or ethnicity. Many of these applicants descended from or were not that far removed from the squalid tenements of New York City. Their academic achievements were without the advantage of money, superior primary educational opportunities or federal government intervention. And the fix was not to reduce the admission standards in the name of diversity or to try to right the wrongs to the generations before them by expecting less. In my mind, this is only perpetuating the wrongs done to black Americans.

There is a formula of integration that has worked for generations in this country. It is far from pure, history is filled with heartbreaking and angering incidents to the contrary but there still is a formula for success that has nothing to do with benevolence, guilt or condescending social engineering experiements. We could learn a lot from baseball.

[Gehringer_2]

Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

And 60 yrs after Brown v Board I can go into a tony downtown Detroit Bisto and all the patrons and waiters are white and all the bus boys are black - and I just want to throw-up. The rest is all talk. That is reality.

[socaltiger]

Tampa and the Twins both gave up on Delmon and we should also for the same reason..his baseball skills are limited and certainly not sufficient enough to deal with the BS.

[Corky]

I hate amputees.
Hobbling around like they own the world, or high threeing people like they have some god-given right!

Better than being an anti-dentite. Next thing ya know you'll be saying they should have their own schools!

[TheCouga]

Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

* As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

EDIT - The whole point I'm driving at is that people in general ought to look at what they have and separate what they've earned from what was given to them. I was born in a household that had food on the table, where I was taught to read at a young age, with genes good enough to enable me to cultivate some intelligence (though no doubt some of you are questioning that), without health issues, without ever having to wonder who my parents are, without the history of my culture on the nation's back burner, without having a month set aside for my ancestors' culture to show up in the textbooks, etc, etc, etc. I had very little to do with any of that.

One likes to believe in the freedom that we all have but what I'm saying is that we're not on level ground to start, and that when people point that out there is no need to either get offended or feel guilty, just acknowledge that not every advantage you or others enjoy was earned, and every disadvantage that others or you suffer through was earned either.

Another perfect post.

[TheCouga]

Ridiculous IMO. When I've owned slaves or held anyone back, then I'll take one on the jaw. There comes a point where people need to quit ripping the scab off the wound. Everyone of intelligence knows about and acknowledges the atrocities of previous generations.

Sooner or later people need to quit punishing the sons for the sins of the fathers.

You don't have to feel punished or guilty when people vent about the past. It's natural for them to be angry, especially if the effects are still affecting their people. No one is asking you to take it personally.

[Motor City Sonics]

And 60 yrs after Brown v Board I can go into a tony downtown Detroit Bisto and all the patrons and waiters are white and all the bus boys are black - and I just want to throw-up. The rest is all talk. That is reality.

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

[Gehringer_2]

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

[TheCouga]

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

No one thinks anyone has this right, nor is there an excuse for this. No reasonable person, at least.

But it's not an even-sided "both sides are the same, therefore oppression of minorities isn't an issue at all" kind of thing. Yeah, a few black people might be racist, but the majority of them don't have the power to repress anyone.

I'll agree with what others have said, though. Today, it's mostly a class thing, not a racial thing. There's still more white people in poverty in this country than black people. The ratios aren't the same, but, especially if you live in the South, you'll find out that our economy these days is an equal opportunity ****ing.

[Biff Mayhem]

No one is asking you to take it personally.

That's actually not true. Eric said this:

you have to allow them to be mad about it and take in on the jaw.

And you agreed with it calling it an "Extremely good post".

Being angry about the past bares no fruit. Using the past to make yourself a better person bares tons of fruit. Ripping scabs off wounds repeatedly will never allow the wound to heal.

[ROMAD1]

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

Is this really an argument you want to get into? You know the lines have all been drawn and there are no wins on points in these.

[TheCouga]

That's actually not true. Eric said this:



And you agreed with it calling it an "Extremely good post".

Being angry about the past bares no fruit. Using the past to make yourself a better person bares tons of fruit. Ripping scabs off wounds repeatedly will never allow the wound to heal.

That depends on what you mean by "take one on the jaw," I guess. I saw that as a figure of speech meaning just take it like a man and brush it off.

As far as how other people want to motivate themselves, that's their business. I agree with you that dwelling in the past isn't going to help them. The problem is, black people's problems (and Native American problems, for that matter) are not just in the past. Just because there is very little overt legalized discrimination these days doesn't mean our economic system doesn't still create a large barrier to success. Like others have said, it's a class thing more than a race thing these days. But there's a lot of illegitimate reasons why blacks are disproportionately part of one economic class. The heritablity, or lack thereof, of wealth and social status is a huge factor.

[Gehringer_2]

The heritablity, or lack thereof, of wealth and social status is a huge factor.

You can argue that this even becomes part of the health care debate as well. In this country today if you are middle class or lower and you get sick or end up needing long term care before you die, the system is set up to drain every dollar of possible legacy you can leave your children the help them or your grandchildren get a leg up. Just one more way we are building differential impediments to mobility between the top and bottom instead of removing them.

[sabretooth]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

[Gehringer_2]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

this is true. This is MTS. Though no doubt the wrong forum area.

[TigersSlappy]

I agree with you that dwelling in the past isn't going to help them. The problem is, black people's problems (and Native American problems, for that matter) are not just in the past. Just because there is very little overt legalized discrimination these days doesn't mean our economic system doesn't still create a large barrier to success. Like others have said, it's a class thing more than a race thing these days. But there's a lot of illegitimate reasons why blacks are disproportionately part of one economic class.

I'm not here to argue what does/doesn't cause problems but I dismiss notions that what happened 50-400 years ago is still holding people down today. If one researches how the Chinese were treated in this country from 1850-1950 it's another sordid legacy but they seem to have recovered from it pretty well.

[Motor City Sonics]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

That's is what I am trying to say..............just because there have been some terrible things in the past - it doesn't give anyone, ANYONE the right to "pay it back" with more racist crap. Doesn't make it better.

[diaspora04]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

To be clear, the Hilton is not "swanky" by any definition.

[Gehringer_2]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

To be clear for myself, I agree the diversion of the discussion into general principles has nothing to do with Delmon's case specifically. AFAIK, he is in fact a child of the middle class, and even of privilege from the time his talent for hitting a baseball emerged, and being drunk and boorish is without excuse no matter who or what you are.

[Eric Cioe]

Interesting debate, but I really fail to see how any grievances over historical treatment of minorities relates in any way to a wealthy and drunken baseball player verbally/physically assaulting strangers outside his swanky hotel.

People were questioning the idea of hate crimes.

[Nastradamus]

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

Not really. One is a bigoted, isolated act. Racisim is about a system of power.

[John_Brian_K]

Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

Just because something has been one-sided, it doesn't make it right to try and make up for it.

I was at a music conference in New York and leaving a concert there were black Muslims screaming at us and calling us oppressors. I approached one of them (which didn't make my friends happy) and told him my dad was from Belfast, he never oppressed anyone in his life and that the man accusing me of oppression was wearing a suit that cost more than my entire wardrobe. I thought he was gonna hit me. He was a racist. He knew NOTHING about me but then screams about me and then pretty much threatens me when I call him on his ********. Were black recording artists ripped off by whites in the music business? Yep, and a lot of white artists were ripped off too and that continues today.

Racism is everywhere, you can't deny it. Every adult in this country (and probably in the world) has a degree of racism in them - and if you deny this you are a liar. But we don't have to let it take control and get loud and get nasty in the degree that DY did, allegedly, on Thursday night. Do I think DY is a stone-cold overt racist? No, I don't, I think he has an anger-control issue and that is why he went nuts the way he did - he found a signpost on a guy (his yarmulke) and used that to go off and humiliate him. I had someone go off on me at a Red Wings game because I am fat. He was an Avalanche fan - going off on my weight was easy pickens........

In your life if you say you didn't think certain ugly thoughts based on someone's race/religion/looks without getting to know them - then you are a very special human being. But most of us have enough self control to repress those thoughts and to not act out like a complete friggin idiot like Delmon did.

We learned a few things here.

1 - Delmon didn't learn a thing from his 50 game suspension
2. Delmon cost himself a shipload of money because his next contract may have just been cut in half from this latest incident.
3 - Andy Dirks is a far better left fielder than Delmon
4 - Some guys don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.


Wonder why Minnesota got rid of him so cheaply? He is stupid, he is selfish, he is not committed to making this team better.

Very well written out post. I 'tried' (VERY horribly from some of the responses I got) to say something similar, but ended out looking like someone who hated Jewish people or something.

Anyway...well written.

[John_Brian_K]

There was a time that Italians, Jews and Roman Catholics were not allowed, or if so, in only small numbers, to Ivy League schools. That was wrong, they were qualified in every way, except by religion or ethnicity. Many of these applicants descended from or were not that far removed from the squalid tenements of New York City. Their academic achievements were without the advantage of money, superior primary educational opportunities or federal government intervention. And the fix was not to reduce the admission standards in the name of diversity or to try to right the wrongs to the generations before them by expecting less. In my mind, this is only perpetuating the wrongs done to black Americans.

There is a formula of integration that has worked for generations in this country. It is far from pure, history is filled with heartbreaking and angering incidents to the contrary but there still is a formula for success that has nothing to do with benevolence, guilt or condescending social engineering experiements. We could learn a lot from baseball.

Holy crap. Another very well written post.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Those who lost out on a job or acceptance to U-M due to affirmative action beg to differ.

I know this has nothing to do with Delmon Young, and little to do with anything, but I figured I would share my experiences at U of M grad school.

I applied to the Ross School of Business (which wasn't called that then) in 2000 for the MBA program. I had a very solid application, good letters of recommendations and an excellent GMAT score. I did not get in. I reapplied the following year, punched a few things up, got letters of recommendations from more impressive individuals, and got in. I have no way of knowing, but it is possible I got bumped the previous year in favor of a minority (I am a white male). In any event, reapplied a year later with a little polishing, got in.

While there I did not run across a single minority that did not belong in the program. Not one. In fact, pretty much everyone belonged there. Everyone there could do the work (and do it well), and the practical reality is that the school is more -> much more challenging to get into than the work required to secure the degree. If the school takes 300 students annually, or whatever the number is, my guess is there are another 300 applicants who were rejected and have very valid arguments as to why they belong and probably would have been excellent students. There just isn't much separating the applicants in terms of ability, race being a consideration or not.

Apropos of little, in my opinion, the least impressive individual I met there academically / intellectually was a Ivy League graduate (white male). If I had to hazard a guess, he benefitted a fair bit from things outside of his ability, but that is speculation.

It never bothered me, then or now, that I didn't get into the school in 2000. Besides, as I wrote before, one can't know that they got bumped because of race considerations. There are so many things considered when they select a class (applicant's undergrad degree, school, academic record, professional field, work experience, GMAT, application essays, etc.) that as a practical matter they can plausibily select any quality applicant over another for reasons other than race.

[rhino]

Perhaps no separating Young's social maladjustment, underachievement
By Jon Heyman

NEW YORK -- Tigers outfielder Delmon Young was placed on baseball's restricted list the other day, ironic considering the gravity of the anti-Semitic slurs he is accused of using right before he allegedly attacked someone outside the team's hotel here.

Young, it seems pretty clear, is one lucky young man. Because his type of behavior would not be tolerated in almost any other line of work.

As it is, his bad personality seems like a reasonable explanation for a career that hasn't come close to living up to original expectations (more on that later).

I don't necessarily blame the Tigers for suggesting he'll be activated as soon as the league clears him to play. They're just doing what any other team would say and probably do when one of their relatively productive players misbehaves. And what the players' union will likely allow for a player under contract.




It would be nice if the Tigers were the one franchise willing to cut a player for being a jerk, and if they do, they get a lifetime supply of plaudits from me. But that's just not something that ever happens.

There has been a lot said about Young being drunk at the time of the incident, but this in no way should be seen as an excuse. Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski said again Sunday that the "anger management" component was a concern as well as the sobriety. The league is slated to evaluate Young on Monday, and it appears to be taking the awful charges seriously.

MLB understandably is concerned whether Young has a drinking problem, because there is a different remedy for that, but let's hope a lack of sobriety isn't seen by anyone as an excuse for his all-time bad behavior.

This, after all, isn't Young's first time to act like an all-time jerk.

He once was suspended 50 games for throwing a bat at an umpire, and he presumably wasn't drunk for that incident, which occurred during a game. Young was said to have hurled the bat underhanded, with it striking the umpire in the chest. He wasn't seriously hurt. The tourist who was tackled is reported to have sustained only scratches. But that is beside the point.

At the very least (and it is very little), Young issued a statement that contained a suggestion of contrition. Of course he should be sorry if he yelled an anti-Semitic slur and tackled the tourist, who gave some money to a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and Star of David pendant outside the New York Hilton in midtown here.

After being released on $5,000 bail on the charge of second-degree aggravated harassment -- accused of harassing someone based on their race or religion -- at least Young (or his lawyer) had the decency to say, "I take this matter very seriously, and I assure everyone that I will do everything I can to improve myself as a person and player."

The part where he ties his play with his humanity is interesting in that Young's humanity -- or lack thereof -- may actually have had a real effect on a career that isn't anywhere near as great as folks figured it might be. He has a lot of tools, but well before this incident, he was known around the league as someone working with a personality deficit.

Young is still only 26, so perhaps there's time to save him from himself. But he, the Tigers and the league need to do a lot more than pay lip service to the situation. Or blame it on the booze.

He needs to go to a anger management and sensitivity training, for starters. There's no way to tell if Young has any problem with alcohol, but his behavior suggests he is one very angry young man.

And so far, he has mostly hurt himself with his bad attitude. He was the No. 1 pick in the 2003 player draft after wowing teams with incredible power and overall talent as a high school standout in Southern California. He hit .336 his first year in the minors. Stardom looked like it was his for the taking.

Young was second in Rookie of the Year voting in 2007, and it seemed his draft status was en route to being justified. But he has never come anywhere close to reaching the heights originally predicted. He has never made an All-Star team, something accomplished by five players picked behind him in that first round.

Last year, his star had fallen to the point where the Tigers acquired him in a trade for two minor leaguers without extraordinary pedigree, Cole Nelson and Lester Olivares.

He's too good to be cut. But he's not nearly the player he was supposed to be.

It may never be proved what caused Young to fail to live up to the original hype. But it's reasonable to wonder if he was distracted by his anger and petty grievances.

It's fair to assume, too, whether he's running out of chances, or at least should be.

I knew about the bat throwing incident, of course, but this is the first I'm hearing that he is known throughout the league for his "personality deficit". I've always thought his primary problem was that he was just lazy.

[The Truman Show]

I would call being lazy a personality defect when it comes to a job that requires countless hours of hard work to excel.

But, why does Heyman call it ironic that he's on the restricted list? I don't really see what make it ironic.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I would call being lazy a personality defect when it comes to a job that requires countless hours of hard work to excel.

But, why does Heyman call it ironic that he's on the restricted list? I don't really see what make it ironic.

I think he is playing on the word restricted, as in Jews, blacks, women, ...., are restricted from joining a club.

[The Truman Show]

I think he is playing on the word restricted, as in Jews, blacks, women, ...., are restricted from joining a club.

If that's the case, that's coincidental and not ironic.

[CapitalTigers]

Jason Beck ‏ @beckjason

Delmon is in #Tigers clubhouse. Looks like he just got done hitting.

______
Heee'sss back! Short suspension!?

[The Truman Show]

Jason Beck ‏ @beckjason

Delmon is in #Tigers clubhouse. Looks like he just got done hitting.

______
Heee'sss back! Short suspension!?

He's still suspended.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

If that's the case, that's coincidental and not ironic.

I understand that, but people often use ironic incorrectly, and writers are often not different.

If your original point was that he was using ironic incorrectly, I missed that. I thought you were asking what he was getting at with the restricted comment.

[The Truman Show]

I understand that, but people often use ironic incorrectly, and writers are often not different.

If your original point was that he was using ironic incorrectly, I missed that. I thought you were asking what he was getting at with the restricted comment.

Well that's what you get for thinking, Biggs.

[Gehringer_2]

I understand that, but people often use ironic incorrectly, and writers are often not different.

I find that ironic.