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  1. #441
    mickeyb105 is online now MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    Then it is only considered harassment/hate crime because he swore first.... If that is the case.. We are all going to jail, cause i have said ****ing Inge a lot,
    Wait . . . Inge is Jewish?
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  2. #442
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    There are some scary posts in this thread.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    but you cant get arrested for yelling ****ing white people..
    Maybe you can't. You're white. Let's put a stupid, drunken black man - okay, Delmon Young - in front of a hotel in New York and let him yell "f-ing white people" for a while. Think the police won't arrive? Of course they will. They will ask him to stop, and if he does not, he will be removed. OK your turn. Let's put you in front of a hotel in New York and let you start yelling "f-ing Jews" or "f-ing black people" or "f-ing Muslims". You aren't one of them, so obviously it's considered to be hateful and potentially dangerous. The police will eventually arrive, you'll be asked to stop, and if you do not you will be removed.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    I think you're right about this, but I'm no expert in this area of the law.
    I'm actually not, either. I think sinister porpoise probably knows more. I'm studying more employment/corporate side. Although criminal law was my best grade so far...but we didn't study hate crimes.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    Then it is only considered harassment/hate crime because he swore first.... If that is the case.. We are all going to jail, cause i have said ****ing Inge a lot,
    Hate crime laws are different in every state, so I'm not technically sure what constitutes a hate crime in New York. But the idea of a hate crime was implemented to tack on an extra penalty to crimes motivated by racial, religious, or other discriminatory animosity. Crimes like that not only hurt the victim, but they send a message of fear to the greater community that, because you are part of a certain group, you might be the subject of violence. In other words, a few years ago a gay man was tortured and beaten to death -- but the crime also sends a message to all gays in the community that they might be the recipient of violent acts, and thus they have to live in constant fear.

    I think the message of fear to the surrounding community that hateful acts of violence create is reason enough to tack on that extra penalty.

    In this case, Young's comment was meant to be derogatory. I don't think it rose to the level of hate crime, but that's just my opinion. I do think it was wrong, and I do think he should suffer consequences of the physical altercation he caused. Stop playing dumb and pretending that you don't see the difference between what Young did and a Jewish blogger using the word "Jew" to talk about Jewish athletes. In this case, it's not only the specific words, but the context that matters.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    wasn't he suspended for some huge span after the bat episode. yeah - he's older now, but if that didn't concentrate his mind, will this?
    There's no question that both Dmitri and Delmon have a huge self-destructive aspect to their personality. It is certainly possible that nothing will ever get Delmon to change that. I'm just saying that if everything works out legally, contractually and morally to the satisfaction of Illitch, Leyland, Dombrowski, MLB, the Players Association and his teammates that we might want to consider the possibility before releasing him or trading him for a bag of balls, that the chances are good this might be rock bottom for Delmon and he might finally be ready to put in the effort to reach his potential.

    Just my thoughts, I have nothing to back it up with of course.
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  7. #447
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    I love when threads are 10 pages and have 2 conversations going.
    .

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    I'm actually not, either. I think sinister porpoise probably knows more. I'm studying more employment/corporate side. Although criminal law was my best grade so far...but we didn't study hate crimes.
    You already know the args, but the con against Hate Crime statutes is that they in effect punish people for what they think in addition to what they have done. This seems to fly in the face of Constitutional protection of speech and even worship and certainly implied rights to privacy that SCOTUS has carved out.

    On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that 'objectification of another human being' might not be a great thing to make illegal in my next utopia, and hate crime statutes are a nod in that direction.
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  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    but you cant get arrested for yelling ****ing white people..
    How much pain and suffering at the hands of another race have white people suffered. I'll answer it for you. None.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    I love when threads are 10 pages and have 2 conversations going.
    ???? As opposed to only one or more than 2?
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  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Nope. I'm not going argue Delmon over Raburn. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.
    No, I didn't think you would. Just thought you might think the advanced stats ranked Raburn a little high.
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  12. #452
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    I can't believe Delmon ever gets any errors whatsoever. Oh, wait, they can hit a ball right at his glove I suppose.
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  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    but you cant get arrested for yelling ****ing white people..
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    How much pain and suffering at the hands of another race have white people suffered. I'll answer it for you. None.
    You can't just forget about a history like this. I don't feel personally guilty about slavery or the holocaust or what happened to 600 nations of people over the last 500 years. But it's part of our culture that these things have happened, and that they sucked, and people have a right to be mad about it still.

    The biggest thing as a white male that one can do is just acknowledge that they happened and that in many cases they are still happening today. If you don't believe me take a ride out here to Montana sometime and I'll show you land that taken from sovereign nations under banners of peace, and where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th biggest massacres that ever happened on American soil ever happened. People visit ground zero and Pearl Harbor all the time, but what about the site of the Baker massacre, where Custer sent in a group of men while the ink was still drying on a treaty and crushed babies' heads in front of Heavy Runner, who was waving a white flag?

    The point is that when you've handed people the short end of the stick for hundreds of years, or in the case of women, for milennia, you have to allow them to be mad about it and take in on the jaw.
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  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    You can't just forget about a history like this. I don't feel personally guilty about slavery or the holocaust or what happened to 600 nations of people over the last 500 years. But it's part of our culture that these things have happened, and that they sucked, and people have a right to be mad about it still.

    The biggest thing as a white male that one can do is just acknowledge that they happened and that in many cases they are still happening today. If you don't believe me take a ride out here to Montana sometime and I'll show you land that taken from sovereign nations under banners of peace, and where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th biggest massacres that ever happened on American soil ever happened. People visit ground zero and Pearl Harbor all the time, but what about the site of the Baker massacre, where Custer sent in a group of men while the ink was still drying on a treaty and crushed babies' heads in front of Heavy Runner, who was waving a white flag?

    The point is that when you've handed people the short end of the stick for hundreds of years, or in the case of women, for milennia, you have to allow them to be mad about it and take in on the jaw.
    Extremely good post.
    A physicist, a chemist, and an economist were stranded on an island with no implements and a can of food. The physicist and the chemist each devised an ingenious mechanism for getting the can open; the economist merely said, "Assume we have a can opener"!

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post

    The point is that when you've handed people the short end of the stick for hundreds of years, or in the case of women, for milennia, you have to allow them to be mad about it and take in on the jaw.
    Ridiculous IMO. When I've owned slaves or held anyone back, then I'll take one on the jaw. There comes a point where people need to quit ripping the scab off the wound. Everyone of intelligence knows about and acknowledges the atrocities of previous generations.

    Sooner or later people need to quit punishing the sons for the sins of the fathers.
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  16. #456
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    Not to stray too far from the topic at hand, but would the Tigers look at Abreu to fill in if Delmon ends up going? Not saying it is the best option, just kind of struck me this morning...
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  17. #457
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    If Abreu has anything left, his on-base skills would fit nicely in the line-up. One potential problem is there was an article a couple of years going claiming that Leyland didn't like Abreu's attitude. I can't remember who wrote the article but it came out around the trade deadline one year when the Tigers were rumored to be interested in Abreu.
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  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff Mayhem View Post
    Ridiculous IMO. When I've owned slaves or held anyone back, then I'll take one on the jaw. There comes a point where people need to quit ripping the scab off the wound. Everyone of intelligence knows about and acknowledges the atrocities of previous generations.

    Sooner or later people need to quit punishing the sons for the sins of the fathers.
    I was reading this thread immediately after reading a recent article by Thomas Sowell on the the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman affair and something he said is exactly on point:

    "Let us talk sense, like adults. Nothing that is done to George Zimmerman — justly or unjustly — will unlynch a single black man who was tortured and killed in the Jim Crow South for a crime he didn’t commit.

    Letting hoodlums get away with hoodlumism today does not undo a single injustice of the past. It is not even a favor to the hoodlums, for many of whom this is just the first step on a path that leads to the penitentiary, and maybe to the execution chamber.

    Winston Churchill said, “If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost.” He wasn’t talking about racial issues, but what he said applies especially where race is involved."

    Racism and George Zimmerman - Thomas Sowell - National Review Online
    Last edited by tananarama; 04-29-2012 at 09:05 AM. Reason: added link

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by tananarama View Post
    ....
    ....
    Letting hoodlums get away with hoodlumism today does not undo a single injustice of the past.
    Indeed, so it is a shame that the society as a whole does little to insure that young black people who wish to can grow up in an environment free of "hoodlumism". And who has run the larger society that has allowed the inner city pathologies to fester over the last 50 yrs? As a society as a whole, we are still screwing blacks and other minorities who want to play by the rules in this country even today. Just because Sowell got his.....
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  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    If Abreu has anything left, his on-base skills would fit nicely in the line-up. One potential problem is there was an article a couple of years going claiming that Leyland didn't like Abreu's attitude. I can't remember who wrote the article but it came out around the trade deadline one year when the Tigers were rumored to be interested in Abreu.
    Ah interesting, didn't realize that.

    At his age does he have any speed left too? A guy who gets on base with a little speed couldn't really hurt I guess.
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  21. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by drownwithyou View Post
    Ah interesting, didn't realize that.

    At his age does he have any speed left too? A guy who gets on base with a little speed couldn't really hurt I guess.
    He stole 21 bases last year. He'd look like a world class sprinter on this roster.
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  22. #462
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    Bloody Heck!

    Delmon Young's people were brought to the New World in chains because of the machinations of the Rothschilds. He should have stated that at the time of the altercation so that everyone knew that he had a historical trump card on the hate crime charge. Meanwhile the Irish cop would turn around and tell Delmon that his ancestors were in the Royal Navy and ended the slave trade and or fought in the Grand Old Army that ended Slavery
    at Appomattox Courthouse.

    Doesn't this get silly?

  23. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Indeed, so it is a shame that the society as a whole does little to insure that young black people who wish to can grow up in an environment free of "hoodlumism".
    I certainly agree with that as does Sowell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    And who has run the larger society that has allowed the inner city pathologies to fester over the last 50 yrs? As a society as a whole, we are still screwing blacks and other minorities who want to play by the rules in this country even today. Just because Sowell got his.....
    A little confused by this party. First you say obliquely that whites have allowed conditions that put minorities at a disadvantage to continue, which I don't disagree with to the extent that "whites" as a group actually have any control over conditions. But then you bold/italic "as a whole" which of course would imply that everyone segment of society including minorities are to blame for current conditions, which is almost certainly true.

    And I won't address the last thing you said except to say that I hope I'm reading it wrong because it sounds like a masked typical response to a black person who disagrees with liberal views on race, i.e. his opinion has no value because he's just an Uncle Tom.

    Anyway this discussion is to the point where it should really be in the political forum.

  24. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    He stole 21 bases last year. He'd look like a world class sprinter on this roster.
    If he still has both his on base skills and has 20 steal speed I'd love to have him in the number 2 spot and move Boesch to where Elmon was hitting.
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  25. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmanson View Post
    So how does that guy have a site that says "Jews and Sports" and there is no problem with that but DY adds ****ing in front and its a hate crime? If people truly want to end the use of these terms they ALL need to stop using them... the fact that people of the same race/religion can use the term but no others can is stupid... The hate crime part will get thrown out since by all reports never touched the Jewish guy.. all he did was push some idiot from Chicago. Send him to anger management and AA for a month to make people happy and he will be back.... the people who want him cut you do realize that he hits like 150 pts higher then the person you want to get more time in place of him (Rugburn).. An while DY might be slow he never threw a ball over the fence for a HR
    How can someone be THIS ignorant? I don't even know what to say...

    There's nothing wrong with the word. It's about the context in which it's used. How someone could not be aware of this is beyond me.
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  26. #466
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    Can this thread go back to being about some dude who got drunked up in the Big Apple, said some stupid stuff, took a swing at somebody, and got himself a time out? Not really sure how you go much deeper than that.
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  27. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishmick79 View Post
    Can this thread go back to being about some dude who got drunked up in the Big Apple, said some stupid stuff, took a swing at somebody, and got himself a time out? Not really sure how you go much deeper than that.
    I was going to say you must be new here, but after 10 years of being here you think you would have noticed this!
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    Quote Originally Posted by drownwithyou View Post
    I was going to say you must be new here, but after 10 years of being here you think you would have noticed this!
    Call it a case of willfull ignorance.
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    ITT: Everyone giving their personal opinion on what a hate crime is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waffel View Post
    ITT: Everyone giving their personal opinion on what a hate crime is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Indeed, so it is a shame that the society as a whole does little to insure that young black people who wish to can grow up in an environment free of "hoodlumism". And who has run the larger society that has allowed the inner city pathologies to fester over the last 50 yrs? As a society as a whole, we are still screwing blacks and other minorities who want to play by the rules in this country even today. Just because Sowell got his.....
    Those who lost out on a job or acceptance to U-M due to affirmative action beg to differ. As for the "larger society", maybe the automobile and cheap gas were the worst thing ever to happen to the blacks. Because of cheap gas suburbs exploded and "white flight" from the cities occurred - leaving behind only those who could not afford to buy a new home and an automobile. Once a large segment of an urban population leaves, then you lose tax base, lose public transit, lose infrastructure - and your city dies.

    There's no easy solutions for the inner city mess, because you can't dictate where people live without resorting to truly Draconian measures like 100% gas taxes, etc. If I don't want to live in Hamtramack, you can't force me to do so.
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  32. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishmick79 View Post
    Can this thread go back to being about some dude who got drunked up in the Big Apple, said some stupid stuff, took a swing at somebody, and got himself a time out? Not really sure how you go much deeper than that.
    Nothing is ever simple for us Morons, lol. Actually my view of alcohol is that it tends to loosen your tongue, and you say things that you may know/feel but normally would not dare to express.

    I work with law enforcement on a daily basis, and they can tell you that many a case has been cracked due to drunken bragging at the local watering hole. So, in this case it's possible that intoxication did cause Delmon to either blurt out a normally unspoken feeling - or to model something he has heard others say, which is a much lesser "crime" IMHO.
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    The reason it's not kosher to yell "****ing Jew" is because without the yarmulke he would have just called him an idiot or ******* or something like that. But the sight of the yarmulke turned it into something where he had to drag others into it by specifying Jew. I'm sure if that Jewish guy had been the one yelling "****ing black guy" at Delmon it wouldn't be ok with him. By including the element of race or ethnicity or religion you are implying that the race/ethnicity/religion is somehow a relevant factor in your outrage. Otherwise why say it? When a white guy gets mad at another white guy he doesn't normally yell "You stupid guy with brown hair that's going gray!!!!" But if he were say, an albino, and you said "You stupid albino", then you've crossed the line.

    That said, I'm uncomfortable with prosecution of that because I do think people have the right to be bigots or racists as long as they don't act upon it. I consider that a form of free speech. Now how the Tigers deal with it as a PR issue is entirely up to them as baseball is a business and if a player does something to hurt the business then they ahve the right to punish him. It'
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by drownwithyou View Post
    Any time the Twins win?
    agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Those who lost out on a job or acceptance to U-M due to affirmative action beg to differ..
    AA is problematic but off topic to the main issue. It isn't really any part of the solution to urban pathology. But even given that AA may create other injustices, on a total national level you can't seriously place any economic set-back created for the whites who may have lost a job to an AA candidate on the same scale as those created by the lack of opportunity to grow and thrive that a major segment of the young black population in the US face. Those whites may have a fair individual grievance, but they are a tiny segment of the overall population while blacks without a fair shot are a shamefully large percentage of their total numbers.
    You argue with the umpire because there is nothing else you can do about it. - Leo Durocher

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  36. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Indeed, so it is a shame that the society as a whole does little to insure that young black people who wish to can grow up in an environment free of "hoodlumism". And who has run the larger society that has allowed the inner city pathologies to fester over the last 50 yrs? As a society as a whole, we are still screwing blacks and other minorities who want to play by the rules in this country even today. Just because Sowell got his.....
    I think these days we're mostly screwing poor people, and they could in theory be of any race or gender! Now if that isn't progress I don't know what is, I'm personally not going to feel guilty or accept blame for any acts I haven't done just because I happen to be white, how is that any different than having an opinion about someone just because they're black?

    At the same time, that doesn't mean you can ignore that plenty of people out there are still racist or suffering from the effects of racial discrimination. You can be a good person who fights against those things without 'taking it on the jaw' yourself as it was put in this thread.

    Ahem, as far as the actual baseball discussion goes, Abreu is completely useless defensively, and his bat is declining fast, I'd pass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    There's no easy solutions for the inner city mess, because you can't dictate where people live without resorting to truly Draconian measures like 100% gas taxes, etc.
    Or the reservation system ... oh wait, you totally can dictate where people live. Just make sure that their way of life isn't welcome in the broader society, or that they can't afford to leave their current situation, and the suburbs will remain safe for the children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Those who lost out on a job or acceptance to U-M due to affirmative action beg to differ.
    Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

    * As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

    It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

    The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

    EDIT - The whole point I'm driving at is that people in general ought to look at what they have and separate what they've earned from what was given to them. I was born in a household that had food on the table, where I was taught to read at a young age, with genes good enough to enable me to cultivate some intelligence (though no doubt some of you are questioning that), without health issues, without ever having to wonder who my parents are, without the history of my culture on the nation's back burner, without having a month set aside for my ancestors' culture to show up in the textbooks, etc, etc, etc. I had very little to do with any of that.

    One likes to believe in the freedom that we all have but what I'm saying is that we're not on level ground to start, and that when people point that out there is no need to either get offended or feel guilty, just acknowledge that not every advantage you or others enjoy was earned, and every disadvantage that others or you suffer through was earned either.
    Last edited by Eric Cioe; 04-29-2012 at 12:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    Or the reservation system ... oh wait, you totally can dictate where people live. Just make sure that their way of life isn't welcome in the broader society, or that they can't afford to leave their current situation, and the suburbs will remain safe for the children.
    The US Government has done plenty of bad things, I still fail to see how this makes me, or even white people in general responsible. I'm white, I was raised in poverty, my life has been pretty terrible as a general rule. In my age group, women are paid more than men. Does this give me the right to be angry at all white people and women myself? I don't think so.

    If you're a 70 year old black man, I wouldn't blame you at all for being angry as hell, but given that the entire basis for this discussion, is a young, millionaire, black man, it's a struggle for me to understand where his burning rage at white beggars would come from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrotigers View Post
    I think these days we're mostly screwing poor people, .
    True dat.
    You argue with the umpire because there is nothing else you can do about it. - Leo Durocher

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