Cabrera and Third Base Defense...

**RedRamage** · 04-25-2012, 03:13 PM

Okay, only 17 games into the season so far, so there's much of the year, let alone future years that we hope to see Cabby playing third. What do you think so far?

Over all I think he's done better than I expected. I figured there would be more errors and more missed balls, but he's been pretty...okay I think defensively. Yeah, sure, he's not going to be winning any gold gloves there. There have also been a few balls that I think an above average defensive guy gets too.

Part of the problem is that Peralta doesn't have great range in my opinion. This only magnifies Cabby's lack of range. (On a side note, I really hope the Tigers concentrate on getting high OBP, good defensive guys for SS and 2nd.)

**John_Brian_K** · 04-25-2012, 03:31 PM

He has been what I expected him to be....average to below average...good enough for me.

**tiger337** · 04-25-2012, 03:43 PM

Cabrera has been OK at third. Not good, but good enough to not be a problem on his own. The bigger problem is that they have too many mediocre or poor fielders all over the place and it results in bad team defense. It's fine when everyone is hitting, but it becomes more noticeable when they aren't scoring runs and every run allowed becomes magnified.

**catswithbats** · 04-25-2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

He has been what I expected him to be....average to below average...good enough for me.

Yep.

**Gehringer_2** · 04-25-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

Cabrera has been OK at third. Not good, but good enough to not be a problem on his own. The bigger problem is that they have too many mediocre or poor fielders all over the place and it results in bad team defense. It's fine when everyone is hitting, but it becomes more noticeable when they aren't scoring runs and every run allowed becomes magnified.

I've been happy with his glove. Clearly he doesn't always manage to stay in control to finish the play once he does manage to make a high stress catch/stop. Maybe acclimation will help - maybe not - only time will tell there.

I think he is still too heavy to be the best 3b he can be. There is a still more athletic player hidden in Miggy's frame. What we don't know is 1) is he capable of keeping his weight any lower 2) is there some point where lost strength or leverage would begin to affect his hitting? Hard to know that either.

**pyrotigers** · 04-25-2012, 04:29 PM

I think he's been below average, but that's fine and much better than I expected.

**TigersSlappy** · 04-25-2012, 04:58 PM

I posted this in the game thread last night - a defensive comparison.

"Is the Miguel Cabrera Third Base Experiment Working?
April 24, 2012

So far, OK."

http://www.actasports.com/stats_detail/?StatId=327

**Hart** · 04-25-2012, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by tiger337

Cabrera has been OK at third. Not good, but good enough to not be a problem on his own. The bigger problem is that they have too many mediocre or poor fielders all over the place and it results in bad team defense. It's fine when everyone is hitting, but it becomes more noticeable when they aren't scoring runs and every run allowed becomes magnified.

Exactly.

Baseball is like golf in that consistency is very hard to achieve. Players, pitchers, and teams constantly go through slumps. The best teams are able to lessen those slumps through balance and talent. The Tigers have the talent part but are just a terribly imbalanced team offensively (at least right now) and defensively (probably for the season). With we have enough good hitters in this lineup that I cannot figure out for the life of me why we would chose offense over defense at second base...and left field on many nights.

**Hart** · 04-25-2012, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gehringer_2

I've been happy with his glove. Clearly he doesn't always manage to stay in control to finish the play once he does manage to make a high stress catch/stop. Maybe acclimation will help - maybe not - only time will tell there.

I think he is still too heavy to be the best 3b he can be. There is a still more athletic player hidden in Miggy's frame. What we don't know is 1) is he capable of keeping his weight any lower 2) is there some point where lost strength or leverage would begin to affect his hitting? Hard to know that either.

Cabrera has just got such a big frame. I think asking a player his age to start losing more weight than he has already lost is asking too much and not worth any risk it could cost him in loss of strength. He is a good athlete for his size. But his reactions and quickness are always going to be just a split second slower because he is so big.

TJ · 04-25-2012, 09:26 PM

OK -- not disastrous.

**PuNk42AE** · 04-25-2012, 10:59 PM

To be honest there has been some plays that I didn't think he'd be able to make. Of course there have been the balls you thought he would get to and didn't, but still I'd rate it a little bit above expectations.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 04-26-2012, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hart

Cabrera has just got such a big frame. I think asking a player his age to start losing more weight than he has already lost is asking too much and not worth any risk it could cost him in loss of strength. He is a good athlete for his size. But his reactions and quickness are always going to be just a split second slower because he is so big.

Is he really that much bigger than Adrian Beltre though?

**Dawgs** · 04-26-2012, 06:19 AM

Its not Cabreras defense that hurts us, if it was he alone with below average D we would be fine. The problem is we have Avila and Jackson who are average to just above and the rest of the team blows.

**hardysf** · 04-26-2012, 11:18 AM

Cabrera made a great play today, and threw a strike from his knees. Prince failed to even try and stretch for the ball and dropped it.

I think Cabrera has been pretty good at third base.

I think Prince has looked terrible at first base and is the one we need to worry about. He has absolutely no range and can barely get to foul pop ups halfway between home and first. He also has dropped some throws to first and threw a ball into center field.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 04-26-2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by hardysf

Cabrera made a great play today, and threw a strike from his knees. Prince failed to even try and stretch for the ball and dropped it.

I think Cabrera has been pretty good at third base.

I think Prince has looked terrible at first base and is the one we need to worry about. He has absolutely no range and can barely get to foul pop ups halfway between home and first. He also has dropped some throws to first and threw a ball into center field.

Prince is what he is. Can't really change him at this point. Can only get used to it.

**Tim Mitchell** · 04-26-2012, 11:27 AM

Not a problem.

**MotorCityKitty** · 04-26-2012, 12:10 PM

I think Miggy has been Ok, Not great, not terrible, just ok, and passable. I think the lack of range with him and Peralta is glaringly obvious, if we had Tulo, Miggy would look alot better, lol. However it is what it is, and when everyones bats get going it will be less obvious.

**TigerNation** · 04-26-2012, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dawgs

Its not Cabreras defense that hurts us, if it was he alone with below average D we would be fine. The problem is we have Avila and Jackson who are average to just above and the rest of the team blows.

Jackson is average to just above?

That's odd, because Jackson is actually an elite defensive CFer.

**ToledoTigerFan** · 04-26-2012, 06:07 PM

Cabrera's done better than I thought he would. I was worried about his footwork, but he's done pretty well at that. He's definitely more nimble than I thought he would be. He likely won't win any Gold Gloves for his work, but he'll be serviceable there for the next 3-4 years.

**TigersFan81371** · 04-26-2012, 06:48 PM

Well, he's lasted longer this year than he did in '08, so I guess it could be said that he's improved since then.

**chasfh** · 04-27-2012, 09:09 AM

He's been pretty much the guy I thought he would be: plus arm, decent glove, crap range. The sureness of his glovework is a pleasant surprise for me. I haven't seen many balls clank off his glove -- pretty much, if he can get to the ball, he'll get the ball. It's getting to the ball that can be a challenge.

I think we can all agree that if he can be an only slightly minus defender at third instead of a horror show, he'll still be an elite player, and that's what we have seen so far, I think.

As for the bigger picture, here are some data points to chew on: Tiger pitching is third in K/9, seventh in BB/9 and third in HR/9. Pretty good, right? Unfortunately, they are also second to last in BABIP because the defense is dead last in DER. That's elevating not only team ERA beyond what the peripherals show, but total runs, since we have also given up the most unearned runs in the league as well.

All in all, everything seems to be playing out exactly as projected. Well, except for the hitting of late.

**Gehringer_2** · 04-27-2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by chasfh

He's been pretty much the guy I thought he would be: plus arm, decent glove, crap range. The sureness of his glovework is a pleasant surprise for me. I haven't seen many balls clank off his glove -- pretty much, if he can get to the ball, he'll get the ball. It's getting to the ball that can be a challenge.

I think we can all agree that if he can be an only slightly minus defender at third instead of a horror show, he'll still be an elite player, and that's what we have seen so far, I think.

As for the bigger picture, here are some data points to chew on: Tiger pitching is third in K/9, seventh in BB/9 and third in HR/9. Pretty good, right? Unfortunately, they are also second to last in BABIP because the defense is dead last in DER. That's elevating not only team ERA beyond what the peripherals show, but total runs, since we have also given up the most unearned runs in the league as well.

All in all, everything seems to be playing out exactly as projected. Well, except for the hitting of late.

Raburn's and Boesch's misplays are especially bad since neither is producing enough on the O side to compensate. At least with Cabby's bat pretty much back to par, his D is the one we can live with.

**Hart** · 04-27-2012, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gehringer_2

Raburn's and Boesch's misplays are especially bad since neither is producing enough on the O side to compensate. At least with Cabby's bat pretty much back to par, his D is the one we can live with.

The frustrates the bejessus out of me. I put a lot of blame on Dombrowski and Leyland for wasting the dollars spent on Cabrera, Fielder, and Verlander and not putting a more balanced team around around our core. I fear we are turning into the Red Sox. We seem to have no scrappiness when we play and just expect to beat teams with our talent.

**Bud Tugly** · 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM

Teams that are strong up the middle defensively (C, SS 2B, CF) can tolerate mediocre play at the other 4 spots. Cabrera will be adequate, and even if his misplays one every week or so his bat more than makes up for it. He'll make most of the routine plays but few of the great ones.

I'm more concerned with our defense at SS and 2B since they get the majority of ground balls. IMO we should just give 2B to Santiago full time for this season so we have at least one solid defender in the IF and try to trade some combo of Young/Raburn/Peralta/? for an elite defensive SS.

**wockenfussy** · 06-13-2012, 10:41 AM

How much of the problem with Peralta's defense has to do with Peralta and how much has to do with having two weak defenders on the left side of the infield rather than just one? Was Peralta better in the field in 2011 because Inge was to his right rather than Cabrera? I realize that Cabrera didn't throw two balls away last night - that was on Peralta. I'm just asking the larger question about our weak defense. How much better would our defense be if Fielder was not a Tiger, or was DH'ing with Cabrera still playing 1B and Inge, or someone else of his defensive level at 3B? By the way, Inge's 28 RBI's would rank him third on the Tigers now, if he were a Tiger.

**Yoda** · 06-13-2012, 11:03 AM

Fielder obviously has a much bigger impact, but Peralta has thrown the ball horribly this year. As a few people have stated on Twitter, it seems like he has some sort of shoulder injury. If you look at the throw to first last night, his mechanics are all out of whack. He just isn't throwing like he did last year. He's a bigger problem than Cabrera is.

**John_Brian_K** · 06-13-2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda

Fielder obviously has a much bigger impact, but Peralta has thrown the ball horribly this year. As a few people have stated on Twitter, it seems like he has some sort of shoulder injury. If you look at the throw to first last night, his mechanics are all out of whack. He just isn't throwing like he did last year. He's a bigger problem than Cabrera is.

I have not really noticed a problem with his throwing this year, but I may have missed the throws he made that were bad. I missed yesterdays throws because I turned the game off when we were still tied.

I have only missed a handful of games this year and have tuned out a couple times early when I got disgusted with the teams performance, but when I was watching I have not really noticed anything with Peralta and his arm.

**Yoda** · 06-13-2012, 11:12 AM

He's also had several throws this year on double play turns that pulled Fielder off the bag. He isn't given an error (stupid rule) but they would have (should have) been double plays. He's made a lot of bad throws.

**T&P_Fan** · 06-13-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda

He's also had several throws this year on double play turns that pulled Fielder off the bag. He isn't given an error (stupid rule) but they would have (should have) been double plays. He's made a lot of bad throws.

I agree with this. Peralta was so steady last year making the routine throws, this year seems like an adventure.

**jonjd** · 06-13-2012, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by John_Brian_K

I have only missed a handful of games this year and have tuned out a couple times early when I got disgusted with the teams performance, but when I was watching I have not really noticed anything with Peralta and his arm.

You are right. He has been fine. It is the usual one game MTS alarm that is going off. The man just had twins too. His mind was elsewhere. Both were extremely tight plays too that could have easily been called the other way.

**hardysf** · 06-13-2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by jonjd

You are right. He has been fine. It is the usual one game MTS alarm that is going off. The man just had twins too. His mind was elsewhere. Both were extremely tight plays too that should have been been called the other way.

Fixed it for you.

**tiger337** · 06-13-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda

He's also had several throws this year on double play turns that pulled Fielder off the bag. He isn't given an error (stupid rule) but they would have (should have) been double plays. He's made a lot of bad throws.

I agree. He's been much worse than last year when his throws were very reliable. I think there's a chance he is hiding an injury. It would explain his decreased power too.

**toadhunter911** · 06-13-2012, 05:09 PM

Does Santiago have any responsibility for the missed out at second base last night? He seemed late getting to the bag (again).

**pyrotigers** · 06-13-2012, 05:23 PM

Peralta has had a lot of bad throws this year, you can look back in the boston series I jokingly accused him of being drunk in the game thread after he made two straight awful throws in a game

**Yoda** · 06-13-2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by jonjd

You are right. He has been fine. It is the usual one game MTS alarm that is going off. The man just had twins too. His mind was elsewhere. Both were extremely tight plays too that could have easily been called the other way.

It is not just one game, sir.

**KleShreen** · 06-13-2012, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by toadhunter911

Does Santiago have any responsibility for the missed out at second base last night? He seemed late getting to the bag (again).

On that particular play I would say no. They showed a wide replay that showed Santiago was on the outfield grass when the ball was hit and he took off immediately for second base. Now, whether it was his choice to play there or whether the coaches told him to play that far back, I don't know.

**ToledoTigerFan** · 06-13-2012, 07:02 PM

I've been wondering more about Peralta and his throwing. I wonder if he has a sore elbow. He's not throwing as well, especially on the run. Could he have a sore elbow he's ignoring/hiding hoping to make it it through the season?

**jonjd** · 06-13-2012, 07:27 PM

No, nothing is wrong with him. Just one average game. It happens to everyone.

Be thankful that you dont have Brandon Crawford.. A supposed all-glove player. Maybe we should give Iorg a shot... But he is too busy making errors at a brand new position.

**Yoda** · 06-13-2012, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by jonjd

No, nothing is wrong with him. Just one average game. It happens to everyone.

Be thankful that you dont have Brandon Crawford.. A supposed all-glove player. Maybe we should give Iorg a shot... But he is too busy making errors at a brand new position.

I guess everyone else in the thread is imaging all the bad throws he's been making.