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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    How can he look healthier when he never looked visibly un-healthy?
    That's what Leyland said about Sizemore last year.
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  2. #122
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    Unless the Tigers have figured out a way to make their player Bionic, I really hope Inge can make the roster as a starter at 2nd. If he can return to his 2009/2010 form (.315ish OBP, .400ish SLG) he would be essentially equal to Ramon Santiago from an offensive standpoint. If he can play average defensively (assuming he gets some extra rest to keep the knees healthy), he has some value.

    The real value is the depth. I do not expect our entire infield (Fielder/Santiago/Peralta/Cabrera) to log 150 games apiece. Inge would be a nice 5th player to cover for injuries. Especially considering we are going to want Cabby and Fielder to DH a little.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    My guess on how this all shakes out:

    Inge proves to be an above average defender at second base, and he hits well enough in the spring to earn the starting second base job.

    Raburn wins the starting left field job and leyland actually plays him out there on a regular basis, but he also gets a bit of time at second.

    Delmon becomes the dh more or less, but gets some time in left also.

    Thomas makes the team as the 4th outfielder and defensive replacement.

    Dirks and worth begin the year in toledo so they can play every day, both being in line for quick calls up in the event of an injury to an outfielder or infielder.

    If you recall, two years ago raburn started off in Toledo. I see dirks role to be similar. I don't think leyland trusts dirks yet, as evidenced by his use in the playoffs last year. Last year, there was a very good chance that boesch was going to start the year in Toledo, also. It's not a slight on dirks, but with raburn and Kelly and young, and with Thomas out of options, it is probably best for dirks to be playing every day rather than riding the pine, which I expect would be the case if he made the team.

    If Inge proves completely inept this spring, then things might be different with raburn viewed as an infielder.

    This. I don't understand why some people think it is so harmful for him to try out at 2B. If it works that is awesome, if not, no harm done.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJBBREZ View Post
    This. I don't understand why some people think it is so harmful for him to try out at 2B. If it works that is awesome, if not, no harm done.
    Maybe that's why nobody has ever said it would be harmful. I view it as more of a waste of time. And I'm sick of seeing such a selfish player on the team. His refusal to catch about killed Avila last year, and it's going to cost the team a roster spot in 2012. There are other players that can do what he can do, not hit and play defense.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Maybe that's why nobody has ever said it would be harmful. I view it as more of a waste of time. And I'm sick of seeing such a selfish player on the team. His refusal to catch about killed Avila last year, and it's going to cost the team a roster spot in 2012. There are other players that can do what he can do, not hit and play defense.
    I generally look forward to what you have to say. This, however, was a steaming pile of crap. Is it selfish to want to keep your job? Guess what? As good as you are, there's somebody better. Should you just retire so there will be more room? Or are you too "selfish"?

    Neither side owes the other anything. It's not up to Inge to decide whether or not the Tigers keep him. He's going to do what he can to keep a job and they're going to go with who they think will win the most games. This "selfish" argument is stupid.

    A woman from Ireland came into the place I was playing and gave me crap for not being Irish. First I told her she wasn't really in NYNY (it's Vegas), then I told her the guy next door wasn't really Elvis. She didn't let up. I said "What do you want me to do...quit my job"?

    Yes...that's what she wanted. Didn't happen (I'm selfish that way)
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  6. #126
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    I just quit smoking...things could get a bit dicey. Apologies in advance.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Looks healthier? Was he sickly or fat last year that I hadn't noticed? Or did you analyze a few x-rays of his knees? How can he look healthier when he never looked visibly un-healthy?
    You're right.
    .247 then.
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  8. #128
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    You don't need a .280 hitter at every spot in the lineup if all the do is cough up errors.
    Santiago should play 2nd base most of the time but Inge gets the nod over Raburn when Lefties are pitching.
    Haven't we learned anything from the Twins who play tiny scrappy players in half the field and still won half the division crowns the last decade? Or the Red Sox last year or Tigers who were supposed to score 1000 runs a few years ago but their defense could not catch a thing? Santiago should play 2b he is a defender but Raburn needs to stay out of the middle of the diamond as much as possible.
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  9. #129
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    Given the state of his knees, was Inge in any shape to catch in 2011? I doubt he was ever approached about it.
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  10. #130
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    It may be fun the first time the ball is hit to SS and he has to turn two. This could go south in a hurry.

    At least Miggy has played 3b and that isn't nearly as big a reach as Inge trying to play second.
    John 16:33

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    Given the state of his knees, was Inge in any shape to catch in 2011? I doubt he was ever approached about it.
    He should have volunteered for it. He's a frontrunner, imo.
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  12. #132
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    Do you know for a fact that he didn't?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajspence View Post
    Do you know for a fact that he didn't?
    He's been very vocal about his dislike for the position, so I'd be very surprised if he did.
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  14. #134
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    As others have said in this thread, the man love for Inge continues and it probably will continue forever. I just don't understand it.

    As I have said in the past, to put it nicely, Inge is not good.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by nd1377 View Post
    As others have said in this thread, the man love for Inge continues and it probably will continue forever. I just don't understand it.

    As I have said in the past, to put it nicely, Inge is not good.
    As others have said in this thread, the hater hate for Inge continues and it probably will continue forever. I just don't understand it.

    As I have said in the past, to put it nicely, Inge was a 2 win player in 2009 and 2010 and his terrible 2011 could very well have been an anomaly and if he bounces back to his offensive production from 2009-2010 and can play good defense at second he could be a valuable player for this team.
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  16. #136
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    I am no fan of Inge, but there was nothing he could do this offseason that would make this place happy.

    He wants to compete, no matter where on the field it is...he's a whiner and needs to go away.

    If he had said, "I'm a 3B, that's my position and if I can't play there, they should just release me", he'd be labeled the same way. We get it, no one likes him. But, IMO, the fact that he would move wherever he can to get on the field is admirable and doesn't deserve the vitriol he is getting.

    If they try him at 2B and he sucks, fine. Cut ties and you all can hate on him until the cows come home. But I see absolutely no reason to NOT try him. It's not like we have a superstar holding down the fort at that position.
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  17. #137
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    Havent we been saying that for like 4 years now though? I am not an Inge hater. I do not love him either. He is meh IMO. He holds a small amount of value to the team, but he is also hindering us by taking up a roster spot for another player. The fact that he is making like 8 mil per is also a hinderance. Again i am not a supporter or a hater, but it does seem like we have had these same discussions for a while now (not just on here... just in the media in general)
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    Given the state of his knees, was Inge in any shape to catch in 2011? I doubt he was ever approached about it.
    Not currently having a link, but I do remember stories from last year saying his knees were so bad he could not catch if he even wanted to.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesgoblu02 View Post
    I am no fan of Inge, but there was nothing he could do this offseason that would make this place happy.

    He wants to compete, no matter where on the field it is...he's a whiner and needs to go away.

    If he had said, "I'm a 3B, that's my position and if I can't play there, they should just release me", he'd be labeled the same way. We get it, no one likes him. But, IMO, the fact that he would move wherever he can to get on the field is admirable and doesn't deserve the vitriol he is getting.

    If they try him at 2B and he sucks, fine. Cut ties and you all can hate on him until the cows come home. But I see absolutely no reason to NOT try him. It's not like we have a superstar holding down the fort at that position.
    Exactly. It's a great thing to want to compete wherever you think the club needs you. Miggy is doing a similar thing. Props to the guy, he wants to play baseball, and he wants to play baseball for the Detroit Tigers, and he's going to do everything he can to do that. And while he might say a thing or two that rubs fans the wrong way, at least he's not as dumb as Rhymes who says things that rub mgmt the wrong way.
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  20. #140
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    Ya, Miggy is being hailed for what INge is being criticized for. Kinda hilarious. Inge is probably one of the nicest guys and most selfless players the Tigers' organization has ever called one of its own yet this board wants to make him out to be some sort of diva. Plus I hardly imagine any time will be wasted in his attempt to play 2B. I think he has the potential to be better than either Santiago or Raburn can be at 2B.

  21. #141
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    Once again Miggy has played 3b. There is no reach there what so ever. Inge has not played 2b. That is a very big reach. Not to mention he has bad knees.
    John 16:33

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Once again Miggy has played 3b. There is no reach there what so ever. Inge has not played 2b. That is a very big reach. Not to mention he has bad knees.
    Cabrera was smaller and probably more mobile when he played third base before. So, there is a question as to how well he can play it now. I think both transitions (Cabrera and Inge) are do-able but will be difficult. I think Inge will have an easier time doing it, but don't know if he'll hit enough to make it worthwhile.
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  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Once again Miggy has played 3b. There is no reach there what so ever. Inge has not played 2b. That is a very big reach. Not to mention he has bad knees.
    He had never played 3b or CF before either and he held his own out there.
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  24. #144
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    I saw Inge play an inning each of short and 2nd in a spring game against the Braves. Yes, many years ago but he did play flawless in an admittedly, "microscopic" sample.
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  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Ya, Miggy is being hailed for what INge is being criticized for. Kinda hilarious. Inge is probably one of the nicest guys and most selfless players the Tigers' organization has ever called one of its own yet this board wants to make him out to be some sort of diva. Plus I hardly imagine any time will be wasted in his attempt to play 2B. I think he has the potential to be better than either Santiago or Raburn can be at 2B.
    Couldn't agree more!
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  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by john doe View Post
    Couldn't agree more!
    And here is where we have the BIG problem with the Inge debate. Cabby is a first ballot HoF'er...could be argued he is the best hitter in the game and some people are putting his name along side Inge.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  27. #147
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    I've never been an Inge fan but the level of criticism for his public pronouncements has always bewildered me. It's not like he says anything crazy. He talks too much, sure, but he seems to be a very competitive guy who speaks his mind. I guess I've never understood the big fuss over what he's said.

    For all of the criticisms of his not wanting to play Catcher in 2008, he caught 60 games there...NBD...
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  28. #148
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    Inge can play any position on the diamond capably. But he does have some footwork to learn at second base.
    His arm will make up for some mis-steps, though.
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  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    As others have said in this thread, the hater hate for Inge continues and it probably will continue forever. I just don't understand it.

    As I have said in the past, to put it nicely, Inge was a 2 win player in 2009 and 2010 and his terrible 2011 could very well have been an anomaly and if he bounces back to his offensive production from 2009-2010 and can play good defense at second he could be a valuable player for this team.
    If he bounces back to being a .230 or .247 hitter like he was in 2009 and 2010? He is a career .235 hitter with 1183 Ks. IMHO, that is not good.

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by nd1377 View Post
    If he bounces back to being a .230 or .247 hitter like he was in 2009 and 2010? He is a career .235 hitter with 1183 Ks. IMHO, that is not good.
    Those two things are not good. But those two things are not incredibly important when evaluating a hitter. Inge walked at a decent rate those years and also hit for power. To get that from a second or third baseman would be pretty good.
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  31. #151
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    Inge's defense was always overrated. I mean he was a plus fielder. But people around here overrated his defense. His offense was atrocious all but 3 years. And in those years it was merely acceptable and a long time ago in baseball years. At this point he really offers nothing.

  32. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Ya, Miggy is being hailed for what INge is being criticized for. Kinda hilarious. Inge is probably one of the nicest guys and most selfless players the Tigers' organization has ever called one of its own yet this board wants to make him out to be some sort of diva. Plus I hardly imagine any time will be wasted in his attempt to play 2B. I think he has the potential to be better than either Santiago or Raburn can be at 2B.
    Inge's problem is that he has vocally complained to the media about things. I don't mind that he wants to compete for 2B. But he has complained about player signings, coaching decisions etc. And he has never really been a consistently good baseball player.

  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Those two things are not good. But those two things are not incredibly important when evaluating a hitter. Inge walked at a decent rate those years and also hit for power. To get that from a second or third baseman would be pretty good.
    I completely understand where you're coming from. Everyone else as well. I'm not saying that he shouldn't go out and give it the old college try. I'm just stating that typically guys don't bounce back from a .530 OPS after their age 34 season, especially when their bodies are pretty broken down. The best parts about Inge's game, when he was a good player were (in no particular order): range, quickness, power, arm. Besides arm, does he really have any of those things any longer? And now that he's switching to second, his arm is virtually negated. Obviously, we're going to find out. I just know that Inge is going to be given the benefit of the doubt here, especially if he shows anything at all in ST. With how good the rest of this team is, and how close I believe they are to winning a world championship, I don't want to waste time trying to find out if he's got anything left, because I don't think it really marginally benefits the team that much, even if he's at his best.

    I believe a Santiago/Raburn platoon at 2B would give you somewhere between a .710-760 OPS, with a bit below average defense. I think that Inge, at his absolute ceiling, is going to give you somewhere around that. Floor obviously much lower.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 02-20-2012 at 08:33 PM.

  34. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    I believe a Santiago/Raburn platoon at 2B would give you somewhere between a .710-760 OPS, with a bit below average defense. I think that Inge, at his absolute ceiling, is going to give you somewhere around that. Floor obviously much lower.
    I agree. To me it will come down to his defense. I think a 700 ops Inge could provide better defense than raburntiago enough that he could be the best overall option. I consider it a non zero possibility enough that I want to see them try it.

    You are correct that most don't bounce back at his age. But you also don't expect as severe a drop off that he experienced from 2010 to 2011.

    I completely understand being skeptical, because I am skeptical, too. My commentary on this is mostly directed to general Inge hate that existed even when he was putting up 2 war seasons. Many seem to focus on the batting average and check swing strikeouts without considering the defense and power and position he played, especially in light of the other options we have failed to have.

    I don't care in the slightest that he mouthed off to the media multiple times about his lot in life, which also seems to make people hate him.
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  35. #155
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    As for the 2b issue, I find it hard to see how Inge can be more valuable than Santiago...and for that matter Raburn...but I guess we'll find out.
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  36. #156
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    Inge actually showed a little better plate discipline in 2011, but his power disappeared - so I do think the mono should be factored in.
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  37. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMoreLike84 View Post
    Inge's defense was always overrated. I mean he was a plus fielder. But people around here overrated his defense.
    I don't agree that his defense was overrated. I think now his defense is overrated, as I still hear people referring to him as a great defender, but I think when he was in his prime, the recognition/praise he got was deserved.
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  38. #158
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    One thing I respect about Leyland is that he will take the best 25 players north at the end of spring training. There are always a few surprises at the end cuts. If Inge performs well, he will have a spot on the team. If not, I think they move on.

    Kind of happy that there will be some story lines in spring training. Before the Martinez-injury/Fielder-signing it was looking like a pretty dull spring.

  39. #159
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    What is not to understand about how Inge could out-perform raburntiago?

    Inge has 5 seasons of an OPS of .718 or higher. Since hitting his "prime" in 2004 he has never OPS'd under .670 (sans last year, of course). Santiago has exactly one season of an OPS over .718 (2008, posted an .870 over a whopping 150ABs). That was also the only year he OPS+ over 90. (Inge has 4 of those campaigns).

    Santiago is a career .658 OPS, Inge 692. Inge has more than double the ABs. If you discard his early career, when he has no bussiness playing in the majors (remember the dark days?) he's over .700 career OPS and probably close to 10 points higher in OBP, which would put his OBP right on par with Santiago's career-wise.

    Santiago is 32 (allegedly), no spring chicken and fully capable of a statistical collapse, since he was a fringe player to begin with.

    If Inge can play 2nd base at roughly the same level of defense as Santiago, he is probably the better hitter, if not a wash.

    Raburn is clearly the better hitter, but has no bussiness playing 2nd base... especially since we do need a starting LF. If you are playing Raburn at 2nd, that means Andy Dirks is playing LF... Andy Dirks who is going to hit at about the same .700 OPS level that we are already looking at for Santiago/Inge. You still have a weak bat in the lineup, now it's playing LF, and you have a defensive butcher at 2nd. That is not an upgrade.

    If Inge can't play second base, he can't play second base. His bat can't carry him if he is a defensive liability. But if he can field the position, he is probably a slight upgrade over Santiago, and definately an upgrade over Danny Worth.
    Last edited by Sven Draconian; 02-22-2012 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    What is not to understand about how Inge could out-perform raburntiago?

    Inge has 5 seasons of an OPS of .718 or higher. Since hitting his "prime" in 2004 he has never OPS'd under .670 (sans last year, of course). Santiago has exactly one season of an OPS over .718 (2008, posted an .870 over a whopping 150ABs). That was also the only year he OPS+ over 90. (Inge has 4 of those campaigns).

    Santiago is a career .658 OPS, Inge 692. Inge has more than double the ABs. If you discard his early career, when he has no bussiness playing in the majors (remember the dark days?) he's over .700 career OPS and probably close to 10 points higher in OBP, which would put his OBP right on par with Santiago's career-wise.

    Santiago is 32 (allegedly), no spring chicken and fully capable of a statistical collapse, since he was a fringe player to begin with.

    If Inge can play 2nd base at roughly the same level of defense as Santiago, he is probably the better hitter, if not a wash.

    Raburn is clearly the better hitter, but has no bussiness playing 2nd base... especially since we do need a starting LF. If you are playing Raburn at 2nd, that means Andy Dirks is playing LF... Andy Dirks who is going to hit at about the same .700 OPS level that we are already looking at for Santiago/Inge. You still have a weak bat in the lineup, now it's playing LF, and you have a defensive butcher at 2nd. That is not an upgrade.

    If Inge can't play second base, he can't play second base. His bat can't carry him if he is a defensive liability. But if he can field the position, he is probably a slight upgrade over Santiago, and definately an upgrade over Danny Worth.
    Since Polanco left Detroit:

    Tigers 2B in 2011: .260/.311/.394/.705
    Tigers 2B in 2010: .276/.335/.410/.745

    Inge in 2011: .197/.265/.283/.548
    Inge in 2010: .247/.321/.397/.718

    In those two years, the following players have manned 2B:

    Raburn - 70
    Guillen - 70
    Rhymes - 68
    Sizemore - 53
    Santiago - 52
    Worth - 11

    So call me crazy, but if Inge has failed to outperform that bunch at the plate in the past two seasons, then I really I don't hold much optimism he will in 2012.

    Inge is a platoon player. He was used pretty well at the end of last year when he came back from Toledo. I think his best hope for 2012 is to split time at 2B and 3B whenever he can.

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