Worried about our defense?

[TheCouga]

This made me feel better, at least.

Dombrowski: Strong defensive lineup is an option | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

"If we choose, we can play a very good defensive club," Dombrowski said.

Brandon Inge can play third. Danny Worth, if he makes the club out of spring training, can play second base. Ramon Santiago can play shortstop. Don Kelly and Andy Dirks can play leftfield.

Coupled with catcher Alex Avila and centerfielder Austin Jackson, "That's a very good defensive club," Dombrowski said. "But I don't think we'd win as many games as our offensive club would."

Therein lies the balancing act Leyland is paid to balance.

"I think that's where Jim is such a good manager," Dombrowski said. "We have the flexibility to play those guys, and he plays matchups, he loves to do that, and he spends a lot of time focusing on it."

With a ground-ball pitcher like Rick Porcello facing a left-handed-heavy lineup, for example, expect Santiago at second. With a fly-ball pitcher like Max Scherzer facing a right-handed-heavy lineup, perhaps Kelly will man leftfield.

It's a very valid point. We have good defense on the bench, especially if Worth makes the club.

Also, keep in mind: some of the worst defensive infields ever fielded were the Yankees from 2000-2011. It'd be a shame if we ended up like them...

[Jeff6851]

I don't see why it can't be

Avila at catcher
Cabby at third
Peralta at short
Santiago at second
Fielder at first
Dirks in left
Jackson in center
Boesch in right
Delmon DH

Regularly

[jonjd]

Q: Over the last 10 years, how many times has the best defensive team in baseball won the World Series?

A: 0

I asked 10 simply because I was tired of seeing teams like Seattle and Pittsburgh lead the way.

Defense is overrated in baseball.

[Corky]

I don't see why it can't be

Avila at catcher
Cabby at third
Peralta at short
Santiago at second
Fielder at first
Dirks in left
Jackson in center
Boesch in right
Delmon DH

Regularly

So you have Santiago batting 4th? Wow.

[tiger337]

Q: Over the last 10 years, how many times has the best defensive team in baseball won the World Series?

A: 0

I asked 10 simply because I was tired of seeing teams like Seattle and Pittsburgh lead the way.

Defense is overrated in baseball.

Defense is overrated by some, underrated by others. A team can win with below average defense, but poor defense can also hurt a team. It probably cost the Tigers a couple of games last year. Defense is less important than hitting/fielding but that doesn't mean a team should ignore defense. I'm a little concerned about the Tigers infield behind Porcello and Fister next year. I'm hoping Leyland will not be afraid to move guys around to get the best matchups.

[Sports_Freak]

Defense is overrated by some, underrated by others. A team can win with below average defense, but poor defense can also hurt a team. It probably cost the Tigers a couple of games last year. Defense is less important than hitting/fielding but that doesn't mean a team should ignore defense. I'm a little concerned about the Tigers infield behind Porcello and Fister next year. I'm hoping Leyland will not be afraid to move guys around to get the best matchups.

Well, with VMart out all season, wouldn't it make sense to use either Fielder or Cabby as the DH?
Switch them out at times to keep them both happy.

As for team defense being bad not mattering? That makes no sense. Sure, you can look up numbers to say no team that had good defense has won any titles, but how many teams with the worst, or near the bottom, has won a title? And just looking at errors doesn't take into account all the plays that infielders didn't get to because of lack of range. This is what bothers me the most with Cabby at 3rd base and Peralta at SS. There will be many GB singles against the Tigers with those two out there. And will Cabby be in good enough shape to charge bunts, barehand them and make a strong accurate throw? I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

[Gehringer_2]

Defense is overrated by some, underrated by others. A team can win with below average defense, but poor defense can also hurt a team. It probably cost the Tigers a couple of games last year. Defense is less important than hitting/fielding but that doesn't mean a team should ignore defense. I'm a little concerned about the Tigers infield behind Porcello and Fister next year. I'm hoping Leyland will not be afraid to move guys around to get the best matchups.

And you can break it down further that defense is more or less important and more or less over or under rated at various positions. I worry a lot more about a bad CF or SS, which I have seen really hurt the team (Neifi, Deivi Cruz, Alex Sanchez come to mind) than a bad 3b or corner OF. If you have reasonable defenders where most of the chances are you can carry some pretty bad ones at the positions where the chances are rarer, which might give a team a 'flavor' of a bad defending team without being that much below average on a chance weighted basis. Combine that with good pitching and hitting and it's one of many combinations you can win with.

[berneree]

I am extremely worried about our defense in 2012. Defense is the sole reason we lost the World Series in 2006 with what....8 errors in 5 games.

Certainly not a "congratulations to your 2012 AL Central Champs" moment....but still a concern.

[HeyAbbott]

Defense is overrated by some, underrated by others. A team can win with below average defense, but poor defense can also hurt a team. It probably cost the Tigers a couple of games last year. Defense is less important than hitting/fielding but that doesn't mean a team should ignore defense. I'm a little concerned about the Tigers infield behind Porcello and Fister next year. I'm hoping Leyland will not be afraid to move guys around to get the best matchups.

I think there is plenty of defense, if Leyland uses his bench wisely. For Porcello to be effective, there needs to be competent defense on the left side of the field, to be sure.

If this team is not managed well, the casual fan will love watching the world's highest paid beer league softball team.

[Gehringer_2]

I am extremely worried about our defense in 2012. Defense is the sole reason we lost the World Series in 2006 with what....8 errors in 5 games.

...

And the worst ones coming from the #1 position. So we dump the best arms if they don't field?

[tiger337]

And you can break it down further that defense is more or less important and more or less over or under rated at various positions. I worry a lot more about a bad CF or SS, which I have seen really hurt the team (Neifi, Deivi Cruz, Alex Sanchez come to mind) than a bad 3b or corner OF. If you have reasonable defenders where most of the chances are you can carry some pretty bad ones at the positions where the chances are rarer, which might give a team a 'flavor' of a bad defending team without being that much below average on a chance weighted basis. Combine that with good pitching and hitting and it's one of many combinations you can win with.

yes, but they aren't that slick at second and short unless they plan on using Santiago at second most of the time. Peralta is just average and Raburn is well below average at second. I think it's important that Leyland put good defense behind Porcello and Fister as much as possible. It matters less with Verlander and Scherzer.

[Gehringer_2]

yes, but they aren't that slick at second and short unless they plan on using Santiago at second most of the time. Peralta is just average and Raburn is well below average at second. I think it's important that Leyland put good defense behind Porcello and Fister as much as possible. It matters less with Verlander and Scherzer.

Well you know my take on Raburn. I'll be perfectly happy to see Santiago get 125 games if RR is the alternative...

[berneree]

And the worst ones coming from the #1 position. So we dump the best arms if they don't field?

I think the concern I still have is our P still have trouble fielding bunts after all these years. Put a poor 1B, and a poor 3B....and I have a feeling some games this year could get pretty comical if a team gets creative. I could see bunters batting .300 against the Tigers. I would try it if I was a speedy team. Just bunt the Tigers into oblivion. Especially against a Verlander.

[TheCouga]

The funny thing about our defense is that I'm pretty sure Raburn at 2B is a bigger liability than Cabrera at 3B, and yet everyone is talking about Cabrera. And Raburn is probably the most expendable guy in our lineup...especially if we sign Cespedes.

I'd much rather see a Worth/Santiago platoon there. Unless Raburn somehow hits the tar off the ball and has a whole season like his normal second half.

Anyhow...if defense does become an issue, I think there's some pretty easy adjustments we could make.

[TheCouga]

I think the concern I still have is our P still have trouble fielding bunts after all these years. Put a poor 1B, and a poor 3B....and I have a feeling some games this year could get pretty comical if a team gets creative. I could see bunters batting .300 against the Tigers. I would try it if I was a speedy team. Just bunt the Tigers into oblivion. Especially against a Verlander.

I'd love it if a team tried this against the Tigers. Give up all hope for a BB or an XBH, and just make your at bats a 30% chance of getting one base at most. That would be a quick way to just hand us outs.

[New_Age_X]

We tried doing the whole great defensive team a few years back and it kicked us in the balls. We had Everett, Inge and Laird out there almost nightly and the offense suffered a lot from those three guys.

With this line-up we'll still have some great defenders out there nightly. And some of the other guys aren't just going to stand around out there either. They may not be great in the field but what they will do with there bats will far and away make up for a few balls being hit past them or over them.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Go look at Atlanta's infield defense last season. They had UZR's of -10 at 3B, 0 at SS, -12 at 2B, and -14 at 1B. Their pitching staff was just fine, and they were a pretty good team.

[Sven Draconian]

I'll take Cabby botching bunts and a few singles at 3rd base over Elmon letting routine fly balls turn into doubles.

A Dirks/Ajax/Boesch outfield would be very good defensively. Peralta is middling at SS, but passable. Santiago is probably a small positive at 2nd. Avila is a plus at catcher. So we give up a few extra singles (many of them infield singles) because Cabrera is a poor fielder and Prince is bad..... big whoop.

I think defense at 3rd base is significantly over-rated. Giving up some extra ground ball singles (with out the risk of a runner advancing 2 bases, since it is too left field) is not a significant liability.

[tiger337]

We tried doing the whole great defensive team a few years back and it kicked us in the balls. We had Everett, Inge and Laird out there almost nightly and the offense suffered a lot from those three guys.

It actually worked pretty well in 2009.

[Shelton]

It actually worked pretty well in 2009.

The team with fewer runs scored than allowed?

That team kind of sucked.

[mmwatkin]

Not too worried about it right now. Talk to me in June

[tiger337]

The team with fewer runs scored than allowed?

That team kind of sucked.

They were 11th in runs and 12th in FIP and still finished with almost the same number of runs scored as allowed. It seems to me that their defense helped.

[Shelton]

They were 11th in runs and 12th in FIP and still finished with almost the same number of runs scored as allowed. It seems to me that their defense helped.

I thought the issue was about the quality of the team. Of course the defense helped. The offense sucked, though.

My point was that a team with a negative run differential does not "work."

[tiger337]

I thought the issue was about the quality of the team. Of course the defense helped. The offense sucked, though.

My point was that a team with a negative run differential does not "work."

Their batting was poor. Their pitching was poor. You aren't going to have a high quality team if all you have his fielding with poor pitching and poor hitting. That doesn't even need to be discussed. They still scored about as many runs as they allowed because of their defense. Defense matters and Laird and Everett contributed to their defense.

[tiger337]

We typically evaluate team fielding as how many runs the fielders save/cost their teams because of plays made/ not made. However, I don't think that runs allowed is necessarily the sum of pitching runs plus fielding runs. I think there is an interaction between pitching and fielding where really bad fielders can make pitchers worse than they are beyond plays not made. Conversely, I believe that really good fielders can make pitchers better than they are beyond plays made.

The same could be true of a poor hitting team affecting its pitching. However, I believe there is more potential for fielders to affect pitchers, because they work more closely together. I can't prove any of this. It's just my theory.

[berneree]

Who are these "good" defensive players that the Tigers have to put out there?

Out of our starting line-up....Cabrera at 3B, Fielder at 1B, Raburn at 2B, and Delmon Young in LF are each probably the worst defensive player in all of MLB at their position.

Ajax and Avila are probably the only 2 players I would consider good defensively. Inge, Laird, and Dirks are arguable....I will only go that far. Don Kelly, Peralta, Santiago......average at best.

[pyrotigers]

The Cardinals won the world series twice in the last 10 years without being a particularly good team, just goes to show that not being a particularly good team is a reasonable strategy, the Tigers should try it out.

I agree that it's possible for the Tigers to win even if the defense is horrible, just like you can win with bad pitching or a weak offense, but the idea that it's completely unimportant is a strange one to me.

[John_Brian_K]

Who are these "good" defensive players that the Tigers have to put out there?

Out of our starting line-up....Cabrera at 3B, Fielder at 1B, Raburn at 2B, and Delmon Young in LF are each probably the worst defensive player in all of MLB at their position.

That is a HUGE over reaction IMO.

We have no idea on what Cabby does...we can assume and take his career numbers etc as the only basis for anything going forward. Everything else is total conjecture...going on past numbers alone...Cabby will be middle of the road leaning towards the bottom of the middle to the top of the bottom.

Fielder is no gold glover, but not the worst in the league.

Now RR and DY you have a good argument with, but I personally do not think you can throw the other 2 in there just to bolster your argument.

[John_Brian_K]

The Cardinals won the world series twice in the last 10 years without being a particularly good team, just goes to show that not being a particularly good team is a reasonable strategy, the Tigers should try it out.

I agree that it's possible for the Tigers to win even if the defense is horrible, just like you can win with bad pitching or a weak offense, but the idea that it's completely unimportant is a strange one to me.

That first sentence baffles me. So we should aim to be mediocre and hope for the best because St Louis managed to do it with arguably the best manager/player combo in the game?

We can give up 7 runs a game...if we score 8 runs a game we will win more than we lose...you know that of course, but the potential for the offense to be that much better than the defense is bad is what we are hanging our hat on and I think we have a legit argument on that score.

[ajspence]

Defense is overrated by some, underrated by others. A team can win with below average defense, but poor defense can also hurt a team. It probably cost the Tigers a couple of games last year. Defense is less important than hitting/fielding but that doesn't mean a team should ignore defense. I'm a little concerned about the Tigers infield behind Porcello and Fister next year. I'm hoping Leyland will not be afraid to move guys around to get the best matchups.

. . . they aren't that slick at second and short unless they plan on using Santiago at second most of the time. Peralta is just average and Raburn is well below average at second. I think it's important that Leyland put good defense behind Porcello and Fister as much as possible. It matters less with Verlander and Scherzer.

If Peralta is "average" and Santiago is "average", is there really a concern? Was our infield the problem in the playoffs last year? This is essentially the same infield defense as last season except at 3rd. Should we platoon Cabrera with Inge? They'll be fine.

[Sports_Freak]

Going with Cabrera at 3rd base this season is actually a great idea. We also have the luxury of using him as a DH in 2012.
We can slowly play him more and more at 3rd base and see if he can handle it. High risk = higher reward. If Miggy CAN handle it, can you imagine this line-up with a healthy VMart coming back in 2013? We would be a nightmare to face. But in 2012, if Miggy is at 3rd base, who's the DH? Raburn? I sure hope Inge doesn't have a hot spring. Leyland may have a starting day
line-up of Miggy at 3rd and Inge as the DH.

[tiger337]

If Peralta is "average" and Santiago is "average", is there really a concern? Was our infield the problem in the playoffs last year? This is essentially the same infield defense as last season except at 3rd. Should we platoon Cabrera with Inge? They'll be fine.

I thought the defense was somewhat of a problem last year - regular season and playoffs. It could be worse this year depending upon how Leyland handles all the moving parts. Is it a problem that can't be overcome? Not at all. But I don't think it should be ignored either.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

We typically evaluate team fielding as how many runs the fielders save/cost their teams because of plays made/ not made. However, I don't think that runs allowed is necessarily the sum of pitching runs plus fielding runs. I think there is an interaction between pitching and fielding where really bad fielders can make pitchers worse than they are beyond plays not made. Conversely, I believe that really good fielders can make pitchers better than they are beyond plays made.

The same could be true of a poor hitting team affecting its pitching. However, I believe there is more potential for fielders to affect pitchers, because they work more closely together. I can't prove any of this. It's just my theory.

Are you thinking it affects them mentally or with higher leverage or what?

[ajspence]

I agree it should not be ignored, but I think our team is better than last season. The single unanswered question on defense is whether Cabrera can handle third. With 5 right-handed starters this is a bit less of an issue, since we will see more lefty lineups. Having a young, all-star catcher and a solid defensive backup to him dilutes the "everyone will bunt" theory. The opportunity to DH him once or twice a week (or against the "small ball" teams) also lessens the significance of his defensive weaknesses.

What are the chances that Cabrera will surprise us? IF he loses 20 lbs. or so, we might see him challenge for a gold glove this year. The guy IS a Major League baseball player, right? I expect good things!

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Who are these "good" defensive players that the Tigers have to put out there?

Out of our starting line-up....Cabrera at 3B, Fielder at 1B, Raburn at 2B, and Delmon Young in LF are each probably the worst defensive player in all of MLB at their position.

Ajax and Avila are probably the only 2 players I would consider good defensively. Inge, Laird, and Dirks are arguable....I will only go that far. Don Kelly, Peralta, Santiago......average at best.

Jackson/Boesch/Dirks/Kelly is a plus OF. Inge/Peralta/Santiago/Fielder was average or slightly plus last year. If you bench Delmon and DH Prince or Miggy, I suspect the D will be better than average.

[John_Brian_K]

Jackson/Boesch/Dirks/Kelly is a plus OF. Inge/Peralta/Santiago/Fielder was average or slightly plus last year. If you bench Delmon and DH Prince or Miggy, I suspect the D will be better than average.

I was just going to ask if you got the message I sent. I spent half the morning typing it up..it was like 3 pages long seriously...about Breaking Bad and for some reason it didn't send.

That is the worst.

Anyway the cliff notes version is:

When he went to Captain Cooks house in the driveway...exactly when.

[tiger337]

Are you thinking it affects them mentally or with higher leverage or what?

I think some pitchers probably pitch differently if they have very good/ very bad defense behind them. Someone like Porcello might not have a lot of confidence in his sinker if he knows that infielders won't field a lot of ground balls. I don't know if this is going to happen to the Tigers though. This is really just a tangential argument.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

I think some pitchers probably pitch differently if they have very good/ very bad defense behind them. Someone like Porcello might not have a lot of confidence in his sinker if he knows that infielders won't field a lot of ground balls. I don't know if this is going to happen to the Tigers though. This is really just a tangential argument.

good answer, i hadn't thought of that. i think that's certainly possible but also preventable, both by the manager and the pitcher.

[tiger337]

I agree it should not be ignored, but I think our team is better than last season. The single unanswered question on defense is whether Cabrera can handle third. With 5 right-handed starters this is a bit less of an issue, since we will see more lefty lineups. Having a young, all-star catcher and a solid defensive backup to him dilutes the "everyone will bunt" theory. The opportunity to DH him once or twice a week (or against the "small ball" teams) also lessens the significance of his defensive weaknesses.

What are the chances that Cabrera will surprise us? IF he loses 20 lbs. or so, we might see him challenge for a gold glove this year. The guy IS a Major League baseball player, right? I expect good things!

I think the Tigers should cruise to an AL Central title this year if everybody performs as expected. Stuff happens though. I also expected the Red Sox to meet the Phillies in the World series last year. I go through this every year. The board always gets really optimistic as the season approaches and I point out the weaknesses. When the Tigers have a three game losing streak in April, Cabrera makes an error to lose a game,and people start panicking, I'll be here pointing out the positives!

I think the chances of Cabrera winning a Gold Glove next year are very close to zero!

[Sports_Freak]

I think some pitchers probably pitch differently if they have very good/ very bad defense behind them. Someone like Porcello might not have a lot of confidence in his sinker if he knows that infielders won't field a lot of ground balls. I don't know if this is going to happen to the Tigers though. This is really just a tangential argument.

Not really. Fister and Porcello NEED defense. Especially Fister. He doesn't get to a high pitch count very often because he's getting the hitters to hit the ball weakly (or right at someone). The Tigers won last year with Peralta at SS and with many different players playing 2nd base. But I could see a Cabby, Peralta, Raburn and Fielder infield being the worst in the league and not just with errors. But in balls they don't get to, the double plays not turned. This is what could get into a pitchers head when he's in a jam.