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  1. #1481
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    Yepper !
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  2. #1482
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    Absolutely. 2nd highest OBP in the AL and 4th highest OPS. His defense was pretty awful, though.
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    He made up for his defense on his ability to slide on the basepaths.
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  4. #1484
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuNk42AE View Post
    He made up for his defense on his ability to slide on the basepaths.
    And take out people running to first base.
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  5. #1485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    And take out people running to first base.
    (including teammates)

  6. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonlenska View Post
    everyone satisfied with year 1 of Prince?
    I absolutely am. He hit mid-range of what I was hoping for during the first five years of his contract (OPS+ between 130 - 165). Interesting to me, is that two years in a row now, he has walked more than K'd. And the decrease in K/PA from 2010 to 2011 and then 2011 to 2012, is a good sign of things to come I hope. I'm excited to see how things go in 2013.
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  8. #1488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonlenska View Post
    everyone satisfied with year 1 of Prince?
    I'm satisfied with what Prince provided in year 1, but I'm still dissatisfied with the unintended consequences of bringing him to the team. Bad infield defense, poor overall team versatility.....these are problems that could be solved in other ways (the acquisition of Infante being a step in the direction of solving them), but having three first basemen/DH on the roster makes it harder to solve them and as the team is currently constructed it's an almost impossible problem to solve. He had a great year, I like having him as a Tiger, but you can only have so many first basemen on a team at the same time and I liked (and like) the incumbent that preceded him better.
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  9. #1489
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    Quote Originally Posted by DET Mr Malefic View Post
    I'm satisfied with what Prince provided in year 1, but I'm still dissatisfied with the unintended consequences of bringing him to the team. Bad infield defense, poor overall team versatility.....these are problems that could be solved in other ways (the acquisition of Infante being a step in the direction of solving them), but having three first basemen/DH on the roster makes it harder to solve them and as the team is currently constructed it's an almost impossible problem to solve. He had a great year, I like having him as a Tiger, but you can only have so many first basemen on a team at the same time and I liked (and like) the incumbent that preceded him better.
    Looking at what was/is available on the 3rd base market, I'd much rather have our 1st and 3rd situation than about any other option we could have had.
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  10. #1490
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    Quote Originally Posted by DET Mr Malefic View Post
    I'm satisfied with what Prince provided in year 1, but I'm still dissatisfied with the unintended consequences of bringing him to the team. Bad infield defense, poor overall team versatility.....these are problems that could be solved in other ways (the acquisition of Infante being a step in the direction of solving them), but having three first basemen/DH on the roster makes it harder to solve them and as the team is currently constructed it's an almost impossible problem to solve. He had a great year, I like having him as a Tiger, but you can only have so many first basemen on a team at the same time and I liked (and like) the incumbent that preceded him better.
    The bad defense was not an unintended consequence, it was a known trade-off, and easily one could argue that it has not been as bad as expected since Cabrera was better at 3B in 2012 than most people thought he would be.

    All that said, in 2015, VMart will be gone and Fielder will either be the full time DH or split 1B/DH with Cabrera. It's a short term logjam, that we can justify by the expected offensive performance of Cabrera-Fielder-VMart over the average production at 3B-1B-DH, less some runs given up defensively.

    Also, had we not signed Fielder, and instead were in search of a 3B (and in particular one who is not challenged defensively), it's important to note that this kind of player is/was not readily available for the taking.
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  11. #1491
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    The bad defense was not an unintended consequence, it was a known trade-off, and easily one could argue that it has not been as bad as expected since Cabrera was better at 3B in 2012 than most people thought he would be.

    All that said, in 2015, VMart will be gone and Fielder will either be the full time DH or split 1B/DH with Cabrera. It's a short term logjam, that we can justify by the expected offensive performance of Cabrera-Fielder-VMart over the average production at 3B-1B-DH, less some runs given up defensively.

    Also, had we not signed Fielder, and instead were in search of a 3B (and in particular one who is not challenged defensively), it's important to note that this kind of player is/was not readily available for the taking.
    I would also add that I am not convinced the money used on Prince would have been allocated on other players. I think Mike I loves his superstars.

  12. #1492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    I would also add that I am not convinced the money used on Prince would have been allocated on other players. I think Mike I loves his superstars.
    I completely agree with this and think that signing Prince brought/will continue to bring in significantly more revenue than spending the same $20-25 million would have on 2-4 players. For example, even if the draft pick wasn't an issue, which do you think generates more $ for the club, Fielder or Youk & Soriano? Fielder or a combination of Drew/Willingham/Madson? I don't think it is even close.
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  13. #1493
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    I don't think prince added any more value relative to another move or moves that produced the same competitiveness of the team.

    Sure, they sell some fielder jerseys, but I don't think that adds much value overall. If not fielder, a consumer will just buy a Jackson or Cabrera or verlander or Inge jersey.
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  14. #1494
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    If they didn't sign Prince, they don't make the playoffs, and no WS appearance. So yes, I'm happy with the move.

  15. #1495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    I don't think prince added any more value relative to another move or moves that produced the same competitiveness of the team.

    Sure, they sell some fielder jerseys, but I don't think that adds much value overall. If not fielder, a consumer will just buy a Jackson or Cabrera or verlander or Inge jersey.
    I completely disagree with this. People like star players. They absolutely draw more revenue than mediocre players. Saying "Oh, they would have just spent it on another player's jersey" is pretty shortsighted, IMO.
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  16. #1496
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    I agree, anyone that was at Spring Training last season could tell you that much. The whole stadium was buzzing, and not just because Verlander and Cabrera were there.
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  17. #1497
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    Sure, the vast millions made from prince at ST made a huge difference.

    Buzzing or not, how did it result in a substantial financial gain?
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  18. #1498
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    Detroit Tigers place 3 among top 20 selling MLB jerseys - SB Nation Detroit

    Three Detroit Tigers jerseys are among the 20 most popular in the majors in terms of sales since the All-Star break. Justin Verlander, Prince Fielder, and Miguel Cabrera all rank in the top 20 in jersey sales this year. Verlander ranks ninth, Fielder comes in at 15th, and Cabrera has the 19th most popular jersey.

    Last year Verlander was the only Tiger to finish in the top 20 in jersey sales, coming in at 13th.
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  19. #1499
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    Now, Shelton, where's your proof that he doesn't make an impact financially over guys like Willingham or Madson?
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  20. #1500
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    The increase in tigers jersey sales last year was likely due to their playoff run the previous year. Why wasn't Cabrera in the top 20 the year prior?

    I'm not saying prince didn't add anything financially from his star power. I'm just saying I think it is overstated.
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  21. #1501
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    That may be the case. But you definitely said you don't think it added any more value. That's all I was disagreeing with. It usually is blown out of proportion though, along with just about everything else.
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  22. #1502
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    Ok.
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  23. #1503
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    Most economic studies on the subject have shown star, big name types to be underpaid based on the money they bring to a franchise fwiw. I suppose its debatable whether Prince falls into that category though. OTOH, we don't make the playoff run without him.

  24. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Most economic studies on the subject have shown star, big name types to be underpaid based on the money they bring to a franchise fwiw. I suppose its debatable whether Prince falls into that category though. OTOH, we don't make the playoff run without him.
    My question is where does decreasing returns set in? My team is all dogs, I'm not buying any of their jerseys; my team has a nationally known all-star, I want his jersey; my team has two all-stars, what am I gonna do with two jerseys? It wouldn't be that simple, different players will sell better into different groups of fans, but there is a basic marketing reality that at some point your new star's sales will shift from new to substitution to some degree.
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  25. #1505
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    Well, the Tigers needed another star black player I suppose. And I'm only half-joking.
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  26. #1506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Most economic studies on the subject have shown star, big name types to be underpaid based on the money they bring to a franchise fwiw. I suppose its debatable whether Prince falls into that category though. OTOH, we don't make the playoff run without him.
    For the 2004 tigers signing pudge, sure.
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  27. #1507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Most economic studies on the subject have shown star, big name types to be underpaid based on the money they bring to a franchise fwiw. I suppose its debatable whether Prince falls into that category though. OTOH, we don't make the playoff run without him.
    Yeah, if Prince didn't hit .173 in the playoffs, the Tigers totally wouldn't have made the WS. I guess it's plausible they wouldn't have made the playoffs without him, but I don't necessarily agree w/ that either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Yeah, if Prince didn't hit .173 in the playoffs, the Tigers totally wouldn't have made the WS.
    This really has no merit in context of the discussion. There's a big difference between winning a couple 5 and 7 game series, than winning a division over 162 games.

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    I guess it's plausible they wouldn't have made the playoffs without him, but I don't necessarily agree w/ that either.
    You never know, but I think it's pretty likely they don't make the play-offs. The difference between Fielder and some combination of Inge/Kelly, which is what is likely to have gotten the bulk of the 3B innings if we had not signed Fielder, looks to be worth at least 4-5 wins (but probably a couple more in my opinion). And we only won the division by 3 games.

    Clearly there are unknowns, such as how we acquired Betemit mid-2011. But without making those type of assumptions, it pretty easy to show more than a plausible case that the Tigers wouldn't have made the play-offs without Fielder.
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  29. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post



    Clearly there are unknowns, such as how we acquired Betemit mid-2011. But without making those type of assumptions, it pretty easy to show more than a plausible case that the Tigers wouldn't have made the play-offs without Fielder.
    Another deal for a Betemit and we might have missed by three more games!
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  30. #1510
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  31. #1511
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    This was the biggest thread about Prince and instead of starting a new one about him I figured I would just bump this one.

    He is on pace to have (minus avg) one of his worst years...he is a power hitter who is not hitting for power. I expect a guy that is supposed to be a power hitter to lead the team in HR's. He is on pace for 26. Good if you are a 15 mil a year player, but I think expectations are higher for him. He is being over looked because other parts of the team have been really bad, but I would really like to see Prince heat up and bring those power numbers up over the second half of the season.
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  32. #1512
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    Not worried about him. He improved as the season went on last year IIRC. He's hitting .274/.370/.469 at the moment, but I suspect he'll end up somewhere around .290/.400/.500 with ~30 HRs which is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. I was never really expecting to get the guy who hit 45-50 HRs like he did with the Brewers. I guess my stance is that I agree with you that he hasn't lived up to expectations yet this season, but that I expect he will heat up and finish the year with the same numbers he puts up almost every season.
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  33. #1513
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    This was the biggest thread about Prince and instead of starting a new one about him I figured I would just bump this one.

    He is on pace to have (minus avg) one of his worst years...he is a power hitter who is not hitting for power. I expect a guy that is supposed to be a power hitter to lead the team in HR's. He is on pace for 26. Good if you are a 15 mil a year player, but I think expectations are higher for him. He is being over looked because other parts of the team have been really bad, but I would really like to see Prince heat up and bring those power numbers up over the second half of the season.
    A player that can't play D, can't run, MUST hit with power to be worth anything, much less $25M. He definitely has been disappointing so far.

  34. #1514
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerkid23 View Post
    Not worried about him. He improved as the season went on last year IIRC. He's hitting .274/.370/.469 at the moment, but I suspect he'll end up somewhere around .290/.400/.500 with ~30 HRs which is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. I was never really expecting to get the guy who hit 45-50 HRs like he did with the Brewers. I guess my stance is that I agree with you that he hasn't lived up to expectations yet this season, but that I expect he will heat up and finish the year with the same numbers he puts up almost every season.
    At this point last year Prince was .297/.374/.488, so slightly down from this point last year. He had 12 homeruns and 52 RBIs at this point, compared to 13 and 62 this year.
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  35. #1515
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben9753 View Post
    A player that can't play D, can't run, MUST hit with power to be worth anything, much less $25M. He definitely has been disappointing so far.
    Among 18 other AL firstbasemen, he's tied for 4th in OPS behind Encarnacion, Lind, and Davis. It's fair to say he hasn't been worth 25M but to be disappointed is a bit overdramatic, IMO.

    If he were an all-power, low OBP guy, people would be complaining that he can't run and can only hit for power.
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    This "worst year of his career" that Fielder is having is basically making him the equivalent of Paul Konerko, who is going to have his number hung up by the White Sox for that level of performance.

    If that's the level his worst is going to be, I can withstand that short-term while waiting for him to regain his Princiness.

  37. #1517
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    You were saying......
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  38. #1518
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    He's actually hitting LHP well (which has tracked his ups and downs from previous seasons), but he's hitting RHP horribly. That won't continue, trust me...this is just a slump.
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  39. #1519
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    He must have read this thread on his phone in the dugout today.
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    His Homer today was just overrated
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