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  1. #1961
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    I'd rather take on Buehrle than Ramirez. My theory on Mark is well documented in this thread.
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  2. #1962
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Lots of buzz about the Tigers kicking the tires on both Aramis Ramirez and Mark Buerhle. I'm down with both of those.
    Yeah might have to overpay with a third year to land Aramis, I suspect.

    I really don't want Delmon Young back - but Coco Crisp might even be a worse option. DeJesus is my target.
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  3. #1963
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    Why does nobody want Delmon back? He contributed above and beyond what was expected of him after we acquired him, IMO. Sure, he's terrible defensively, but his bat more than makes up for it unlike some guys...COUGHIngeCOUGH.

    Dickerson said at a luncheon a couple weeks ago that he thinks the Tigers will go after Aramis after other teams have spent their money on bigger name free agents.

  4. #1964
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    People do not want Delmon back because they do not believe his bat makes up for his lack of defense. Especially when one considers he plays LF, which is a position where a high level of offense is more or less expected.

  5. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    People do not want Delmon back because they do not believe his bat makes up for his lack of defense. Especially when one considers he plays LF, which is a position where a high level of offense is more or less expected.
    He didn't provide the Tigers with a high level of offense last year? Hitting at #3? What's the alternative; Dirks?
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  6. #1966
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzer1 View Post
    He didn't provide the Tigers with a high level of offense last year? Hitting at #3? What's the alternative; Dirks?
    a) I was talking about next year, not 2011, and

    b) I suspect people who aren't keen on signing Delmon next season, by and large, do not think he provided a high level of offense to the Tigers in 2011.

  7. #1967
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  8. #1968
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleShreen View Post
    Why does nobody want Delmon back? He contributed above and beyond what was expected of him after we acquired him, IMO. Sure, he's terrible defensively, but his bat more than makes up for it unlike some guys...COUGHIngeCOUGH.

    Dickerson said at a luncheon a couple weeks ago that he thinks the Tigers will go after Aramis after other teams have spent their money on bigger name free agents.
    I'm pretty sure that the people who think that DY is likely to be a so-so hitter and very poor fielder are the same people that think that Inge is likely to be a so-so fielder and a very poor hitter.
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  9. #1969
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzer1 View Post
    He didn't provide the Tigers with a high level of offense last year? Hitting at #3? What's the alternative; Dirks?
    I would hope that alternative would be Carlos Beltran, or failing that Amaris Ramirez would also be a significantly better hitting option.
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    What do the Tiger's realistically have to spend this winter? Are people under the assumption that we are increasing payroll?

    Roughly, 2011 payroll was $106MM. I get to approximately $97.5MM just adding up guys under contract, with some reasonable estimates on our first year arbitration players (Scherzer, Kelly & Coke), an estimated $6MM for Young, and modest increases for players not eligible for arbitration. Granted, this is all back of the envelope, but I get something around $8.5MM to get us back to the 2011 payroll level. Regardless, I'm not far off.

    So if we are really players for Aram, Buerhle, the Cuban guy, or Beltran... is the assumption that we are increasing payroll? Or that the contract is backloaded?

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    I'd guess that they end up increasing payroll but its certainly not known. I think it depends what kind of value they find on the market. Also I bet they'd go up a mil or 2 annually on a guy like Ramirez if it could keep the contract to 2 years. I don't see Buehrle as realistic, but its good due dilligence. I imagine he'll get something like 2-3 years at 13-15 per.That's a lot of coin to add to our rotation, though I'd be ok with it at the same time.


    I'm on the don't bring Young back train. He's a .750 OPS guy with poor defense in a big park as far as OF goes. Just not that great of a player overall. His lack of patience at the plate negates much of the impact his power makes IMO and I generally don't want a low OBP guy in front of Cabrera. I'd like someone like Crisp much better. Decent OBP, lead the league in steals last year and plus plus defense in left,which would be huge IMO. Could be worth more wins than Delmon on defense alone and he'll probably give you 1 on offense too. I prefer Dejesus, but Crisp works too.

  12. #1972
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    Ilitch said he wanted to add a big bat. I assume that plays into it a little bit.
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  13. #1973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'm on the don't bring Young back train. He's a .750 OPS guy with poor defense in a big park as far as OF goes. Just not that great of a player overall. His lack of patience at the plate negates much of the impact his power makes IMO and I generally don't want a low OBP guy in front of Cabrera. I'd like someone like Crisp much better. Decent OBP, lead the league in steals last year and plus plus defense in left,which would be huge IMO. Could be worth more wins than Delmon on defense alone and he'll probably give you 1 on offense too. I prefer Dejesus, but Crisp works too.
    Yes, but this is irrelevant. The Tigers like Young, and have already stated they aren't going to non-tender him. That said, unless the unpredictable happens (like a trade that sends Young elsewhere for a 2B/3B), he will be back next season. I think the way the Tigers see Young is that he is a big addition made for 2012, as compared to how we started 2011. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

  14. #1974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    ...I generally don't want a low OBP guy in front of Cabrera.
    Would Young hit in front of Cabrera or would a healthy Boesch? I think it would be Boesch, Cabrera, Martinez, Young --- which probably means that Leyland will come up with something entirely assinine.

    But we don't know, because we've never had a line-up with both Boesch and Young in it.

    EDIT: My mistake, Young and Boesch overlapped by about 2 weeks...
    Last edited by ballmich; 11-28-2011 at 02:03 PM.

  15. #1975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonlenska View Post
    Ilitch said he wanted to add a big bat. I assume that plays into it a little bit.
    I'm definately familiar with this Illitch quote... I just don't know how to take it. The hard part is that the ideal "big bat" doesn't appear to be available in free agency. Unless the Tigers are going to consider moving Cabrera to LF to accomodate a Fielder or Pujols, I'm not sure who they can realistically sign that would fit our roster given our needs at 2B, 3B, or corner OF. I guess Aram would seem to be the best/next bat that might fit. But I have my doubts about that as well.

    Looking back on the comment, I now kind of read it as a bit off the cuff, and something said in the heat of a pennant race. But I'd love to be wrong about that.

  16. #1976
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    I'm definately familiar with this Illitch quote... I just don't know how to take it. The hard part is that the ideal "big bat" doesn't appear to be available in free agency. Unless the Tigers are going to consider moving Cabrera to LF to accomodate a Fielder or Pujols, I'm not sure who they can realistically sign that would fit our roster given our needs at 2B, 3B, or corner OF. I guess Aram would seem to be the best/next bat that might fit. But I have my doubts about that as well.

    Looking back on the comment, I now kind of read it as a bit off the cuff, and something said in the heat of a pennant race. But I'd love to be wrong about that.
    This.

    Looking back, I think the comment should be taken as a generalization. The Tigers are in both a good position to lead the ALCD and make improvements to keep its lead for the foreseeable near future.

    I can see the team taking a tweak as they go approach this offseason in reference to the budgets, and in accordance to what value they can get from the market. I dont think anything set in stone. If they feel they can improve the team dramAtically to the point of making a profit, or gain value, there not going to limit themselves either.

    Im kinda hoping for some Illitch holiday splurging myself.
    A 2012 payroll of 120-130 million would be nice....however unlikely it seems.
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  17. #1977
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleShreen View Post
    Why does nobody want Delmon back? He contributed above and beyond what was expected of him after we acquired him, IMO. Sure, he's terrible defensively, but his bat more than makes up for it unlike some guys...COUGHIngeCOUGH.

    Dickerson said at a luncheon a couple weeks ago that he thinks the Tigers will go after Aramis after other teams have spent their money on bigger name free agents.
    A .756 OPS is nothing special for a corner outfielder, especially one that plays as bad defense as Delmon does. I really wouldn't mind if we kept him around if we don't find a better option, but he is what he is - a former top prospect whom after 3000 plate appearances has been a mediocre ballplayer.
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  18. #1978
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    Is it possible that signing A. Ramirez for 3B would mean trading or non tendering Delmon ? Is it possible to sign a free agent before the deadline to tender contracts ?

    I would Rather have Ramirez at 3b ( Inge in late innings with lead) and have a LF platoon of Kelly/Raburn than have Delmon in left with a 3b platoon of Kelly/Inge. Better to have bad D at 3rd than LF ???

    What do you folks think ?

  19. #1979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    People do not want Delmon back because they do not believe his bat makes up for his lack of defense. Especially when one considers he plays LF, which is a position where a high level of offense is more or less expected.
    While I agree, we do have Brennan Boesch who can play left..
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  20. #1980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambino Lino View Post
    While I agree, we do have Brennan Boesch who can play left..
    Then who plays right? Raburn?
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  21. #1981
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    RE Young: When are people going to learn you don't give out contracts based on what a player did yesterday. You give the based what you expect him to do tomorrow.

    In other words, the fact that he got hot and played decent for us in the 2nd half isn't the best argument.
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  22. #1982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    RE Young: When are people going to learn you don't give out contracts based on what a player did yesterday. You give the based what you expect him to do tomorrow.

    In other words, the fact that he got hot and played decent for us in the 2nd half isn't the best argument.
    Of course, the fact that he still has a very high ceiling and is still before his prime is a pretty good argument.

    While I think it's somewhat improbable, I do think it's possible that we get close to an All-Star performance next year. He has the physical ability to be one, and he just needs to adjust his mental approach at the plate. Also, with a hitter like him, it would help greatly to hit in between Boesch and Cabrera. DY's the type of person that crushes strikes but gets himself out on balls. However, with Cabrara/Martinez behind him, no one's going to want to walk him. Just tell him to be a little more patient, and he could have a great year.
    Last edited by TheCouga; 11-28-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonlenska View Post
    Ilitch said he wanted to add a big bat. I assume that plays into it a little bit.
    I take this comment to mean they'd pay the money if the right player became available, but they're not going to force anything. I think he was talking long-term. Everyone available right now, in my opinion, would be forcing it. But you never know who might be available for a trade when the deadline comes.
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  24. #1984
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    He has the physical ability to be one, and he just needs to adjust his mental approach at the plate.
    He hasn't been able to adjust his mental approach over the course of 3000 PA's. I highly doubt he's going to magically learn pitch recognition.
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  25. #1985
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    Honestly, how high is Young's ceiling at this point?

    I mean two organizations have given up on him, he isn't ever going to be a good defender or base runner. He isn't likely to learn plate discipline.

    I understand he could learn to hit for more power, but how high is the ceiling of a poor fielding, relatively slow running LF who has a 0.320 - 0.330 OBP? Even if he slugs 0.550, he isn't going to be some highly valuable player despite a high 0.800 OPS. Don't get me wrong, in such a scenario, he will be a good player the Tigers are lucky to have at $6M, but I don't think it would be accurate to say he reached a high ceiling.

  26. #1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzer1 View Post
    He didn't provide the Tigers with a high level of offense last year? Hitting at #3? What's the alternative; Dirks?
    Boesch or Avila could hit third rather easily. So could Peralta. Also, if I get into another Delmon argument at this point, my head might pop off. But the argument that his ceiling is high is lunacy. He's had 3000 PA, he's young, but not super young, and even if you think he'd hit for an .850 OPS every year, he's still only an average player if he does.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 11-28-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by socaltiger View Post

    I would Rather have Ramirez at 3b ( Inge in late innings with lead) and have a LF platoon of Kelly/Raburn than have Delmon in left with a 3b platoon of Kelly/Inge. Better to have bad D at 3rd than LF ???

    What do you folks think ?
    I think I would rather eat liver and onions the rest of my life than have a Kelly/Raburn LF platoon.

  28. #1988
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    I think I would rather eat liver and onions the rest of my life than have a Kelly/Raburn LF platoon.
    Raburn playing LF is a lot better of an option than Inge at 3b. How many chances is Inge going to get to suck?
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  29. #1989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    RE Young: When are people going to learn you don't give out contracts based on what a player did yesterday. You give the based what you expect him to do tomorrow.

    In other words, the fact that he got hot and played decent for us in the 2nd half isn't the best argument.
    Okay, how about what he did in 2010?

    If we sign and trade Delmon for someone, I just hope it is a legit upgrade to the lineup.

  30. #1990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Mac View Post
    Raburn playing LF is a lot better of an option than Inge at 3b. How many chances is Inge going to get to suck?
    We can agree to disagree.

    Inge played much better after coming back from Toledo last year both in the field and at the plate. How could he not, he had nowhere to go but up—right?

    Raburn's play at both 2B and LF is sub-par at best and maddening at worst. His ice-cold streaks are the same.

  31. #1991
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Boesch or Avila could hit third rather easily. So could Peralta. Also, if I get into another Delmon argument at this point, my head might pop off. But the argument that his ceiling is high is lunacy. He's had 3000 PA, he's young, but not super young, and even if you think he'd hit for an .850 OPS every year, he's still only an average player if he does.
    I can't see Leyland batting Avila up in the order, and will is Peralta really a legit #3 hitter? Ideally, I would love to see Leyland move everyone (Miguel-Avila) up in the order. It all probably depends on if we can get a legit leadoff and/or #2 hitter, but that is just a guess. At any rate, I think Young is DD's hot trade chip and he's not afraid to use it.

  32. #1992
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    I can't see Leyland batting Avila up in the order, and will is Peralta really a legit #3 hitter? Ideally, I would love to see Leyland move everyone (Miguel-Avila) up in the order. It all probably depends on if we can get a legit leadoff and/or #2 hitter, but that is just a guess. At any rate, I think Young is DD's hot trade chip and he's not afraid to use it.
    He's not a hot trade chip. He was traded for a AAAA reliever, and didn't do anything special in his time here. Why is he all of the sudden worth something good? And, how is Young a 3 hitter but Peralta isn't?

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    I seriously don't understand how Young is looked at as this "let's see what's in the mystery box" player, as if he has some major upside. He'll always be a lousy fielder and a lousy baserunner, and he'll never get on base much above .330 at his peak. That's a lot to take off the table. The plus side (batting average and some power) would only make him an complimentary player at best even if these were maximized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    I think I would rather eat liver and onions the rest of my life than have a Kelly/Raburn LF platoon.
    A Kelly/Raburn platoon would be mediocre at best, but it would probably be only somewhat less productive offensively than DY starting full-time, and a whole lot better defensively, probably about the same overall.
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  35. #1995
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    I seriously don't understand how Young is looked at as this "let's see what's in the mystery box" player, as if he has some major upside. He'll always be a lousy fielder and a lousy baserunner, and he'll never get on base much above .330 at his peak. That's a lot to take off the table. The plus side (batting average and some power) would only make him an complimentary player at best even if these were maximized.
    And as if he didn't already have 3000 PA. He's no Yoennis Cespedes.

  36. #1996
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    Of course, the fact that he still has a very high ceiling and is still before his prime is a pretty good argument.

    While I think it's somewhat improbable, I do think it's possible that we get close to an All-Star performance next year. He has the physical ability to be one, and he just needs to adjust his mental approach at the plate. Also, with a hitter like him, it would help greatly to hit in between Boesch and Cabrera. DY's the type of person that crushes strikes but gets himself out on balls. However, with Cabrara/Martinez behind him, no one's going to want to walk him. Just tell him to be a little more patient, and he could have a great year.
    And nobody is going to worry about walking him.

    Every pitcher will know they don't need to throw him strikes to get him out, therefore hitting in front of Cabrera really won't benefit him.

  37. #1997
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesgoblu02 View Post
    He hasn't been able to adjust his mental approach over the course of 3000 PA's. I highly doubt he's going to magically learn pitch recognition.
    He was only 25 last year. A lot of guys don't figure this out until age 26-28.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    He's not a hot trade chip. He was traded for a AAAA reliever, and didn't do anything special in his time here. Why is he all of the sudden worth something good? And, how is Young a 3 hitter but Peralta isn't?
    I guess it depends on your definition of hot, which I failed to qualify. "Hot" meaning hot potato kind of hot, or maybe as in stolen merchandise kind of "hot" that you are super-willing to move.

    Delmon's bat was hot in the playoffs before he got hurt, and that was somewhat remarkable for a guy who was said to have only middling power—so how about semi-special? Not that I'd expect you to concede any sort of argument to me, ever.

    Neither Young nor Peralta are ideal MLB #3 hitters.

  39. #1999
    TheCouga's Avatar
    TheCouga is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    And as if he didn't already have 3000 PA. He's no Yoennis Cespedes.
    He only has that many PA's because he broke into the league when most players are still failing their biology exams, getting drunk at frat parties, and screwing lots of sorority girls.

    I refuse to hold against someone ML statistics they accumulated when most other players their age were in the minor leagues. Lots of players don't break out until they are 26.

    Furthermore, I didn't say that it was probable, I just said that it was possible. For one season at $6MM, it's definitely worth the possibility in my mind.
    Distribution of wealth is not in any way democratic. It is, in fact, tyrannical, in that a very select few own almost all of it, while most have little to no access. To have a country that prioritizes wealth over individual rights is the antithesis of democracy.

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    mickeyb105 is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    A Kelly/Raburn platoon would be mediocre at best, but it would probably be only somewhat less productive offensively than DY starting full-time, and a whole lot better defensively, probably about the same overall.
    I would rather have Kelly in LF full-time than have to see Raburn out there for any amount of time. It's as maddening as watching Victor try to catch.

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