The 2011 Offseason!!

[Cecil]

Just curious, do you like Kelly Johnson at all?

If the contract is right.

[Los Gatos]

Rather than choose one, why not sign both Carroll and Johnson, if one is able to slide to 3B full-time. Fills two need positions with a nice 1 and 2 combo in the batting order that gets on base, runs pretty well and has power (Johnson).

[Jeff6851]

Good players tend to age better, but I don't think DeJesus is a good enough player to fall into the "good player" category.

He may not be a guy that gets shirts made, but he is a guy that can change a game. Unlike Young, he can do that with his glove. He won't hit 20 HR, he may not even hit 15 HR, but with this offense he'll score a bunch of runs.

[TheCouga]

Speaking of older players:

I wonder how much Javier Vazquez will cost on the FA market. He did a decent job with Florida this year. Decent enough to possibly price himself out of what we need. But I could bite at a reasonable cost.

I'm wary of our pitching staff's workload this year, and think we need more depth in case someone gets injured or Turner isn't ready until next year. The FA list this year is filled with mostly injury-prone players, so there's nobody really in the mediocre range that I'd like to pick up. I guess Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon are available as well.

It'd be nice to sign one of these guys for a 1-year deal, and trade them at the deadline if Turner shows he is ready and we have no more injuries.

[Hart]

Baseball Prospectus | How Do Baseball Players Age?

Here's a good summary to start you off. Google can do the rest for you.



Good players tend to age better, but I don't think DeJesus is a good enough player to fall into the "good player" category.

The point of that article is to show when players peak and when they begin to decline. I do not see where it states that players decline rapidly around ages 32 or 33. I agree that DeJesus is in decline; I would just contend that last year was an outlier for DeJesus and the next two or three years will be much closer to his career numbers.


Of course, if you don't even think DeJesus career averages are worthwhile, then that there is no point to the argument.

[mr0zip0]

I really wish they'd be merged

Same thing happened last year... There ended up being like 15-20 of them total throughout the offseason... This one, with the official name, should be the thread, but people will post all over...

[Yoda]

How is this more official than the other one with 4 pages of posts already?

[Jeff6851]

Same thing happened last year... There ended up being like 15-20 of them total throughout the offseason... This one, with the official name, should be the thread, but people will post all over...

Yoda was first but I like the title of this one more. The only types of threads dealing with the offseason that should get separate threads are moves we make

[mr0zip0]

Yoda was first but I like the title of this one more. The only types of threads dealing with the offseason that should get separate threads are moves we make

+1... No offense to Yoda at all, it's just that "2011/2012 Tigers' Off-Season Thread" sounds more like an official thread than "2011 Offseason!!"... lol

I also agree about the separate threads thing... For example, if so-and-so writer from MLBTR reports that the Tigers have expressed interest in Jose Reyes (hypothetical), put it in this thread... OTOH if Buster Olney reports that the Tigers have signed Jose Reyes to a 6 year deal, then definitely someone should create a new thread so that half of us can celebrate and half of us can *****...

[mr0zip0]

How is this more official than the other one with 4 pages of posts already?

I hope you didn't take offense to mine saying that at all... It is more of a new posters view... If they see "2011/2012 Off-season Thread" they are more likely to post their thought in this... if they saw "2011 Offseason!!" they may just think it is more of a look back type thread, one that says "wow, it feels like it was March yesterday".

It's for the mods to decide though, I'll contribute to either one.

[Jeff6851]

I really hope Delmon is gone next year. The amount of Tigers fans (not on here) wanting to get him back is astounding. He is not good. He gets homeruns, that's about it.

[catswithbats]

I really hope Delmon is gone next year. The amount of Tigers fans (not on here) wanting to get him back is astounding. He is not good. He gets homeruns, that's about it.

Poor defense and poor plate discipline. But the homeruns were sweet.

[Jeff6851]

Poor defense and poor plate discipline. But the homeruns were sweet.

Please explain that to the people here

Detroit Tigers Talk 24/7 | Facebook

[Yoda]

I hope you didn't take offense to mine saying that at all... It is more of a new posters view... If they see "2011/2012 Off-season Thread" they are more likely to post their thought in this... if they saw "2011 Offseason!!" they may just think it is more of a look back type thread, one that says "wow, it feels like it was March yesterday".

It's for the mods to decide though, I'll contribute to either one.

Hah... none taken. I asked them to be merged earlier. It would sure make a lot of sense.

[Casimir]

I'm no McClendon fan, but the Tigers offense did have a good year, I don't see much to complain about with him.

I'm not sure how to grade McClendon either. I mean, Avila improved, Jackson regressed, Cabrera & Martinez do what they do wherever they are, Peralta had a career type season, Boesch showed improvement until he was hurt, Inge was completely horrid at the plate,... How much do you seperate the player from the coach with respect to success and failure?

One thing that crossed my mind regarding coaches. How many teams fire thier pitching coach midseason, make the playoffs, and also have one of thier pitchers win the Cy Young, all in the same season?

[TheCouga]

One thing that crossed my mind regarding coaches. How many teams fire thier pitching coach midseason, make the playoffs, and also have one of thier pitchers win the Cy Young, all in the same season?

Interesting. I think the "win now" mentality DD had before he was extended certainly played into this. Scherzer and Porcello were definitely not living up to expectations, but they've always kind of been inconsistent.

But I think the bottom line was that they made the decision that they didn't like Knapp's pitching philosophy anymore. Fister came in and was previously a "pitch to contact" guy, but interestingly, when he came over here, he racked up quite a few strikeouts. Not sure he would have done that with Knapp still around.

[Jeff6851]

If anyone saw that wild pitch, that's the kind of base running I want. I don't expect first to third on that very much next season, or at all really, but that aggressiveness and that speed

[STLTiger69]

I don't think the org's as disenchanted with Brandon as some think.

lol, no, I think they are....

[STLTiger69]

And for everyone who wants to keep Delmon Young, all I have to say is Carlos Beltran, 2005.

?????

Oh yea? Leif Ericson, 970 AD

More seriously, you do know that Delmon Young is only arbitration eligible for 2012 and is not a free agent until AFTER the 2012 season is over. The Tigers do not have to sign Delmon to a insane contract like 7 yrs/$119M to play next year, only sign him for the 2012 season.

You do also understand that the Tigers can still sign Delmon Young for 2012 AND get another outfielder or two and do any number of things to poor Delmon this year including trade him, release him or let him walk after the season is over and not offer arbitration /or/ offer him arbitration at the end of the 2012 season and hopefully collect a draft pick (or two?!?) if he leaves.

Signing Delmon Young for 2012 is not a "dumb" move, it gives the Tigers an extra right handed outfield bat and another trade chip for the year if they want for the 2012 season.

[alwaysthrowheat]

?????

Oh yea? Leif Ericson, 970 AD

More seriously, you do know that Delmon Young is only arbitration eligible for 2012 and is not a free agent until AFTER the 2012 season is over. The Tigers do not have to sign Delmon to a insane contract like 7 yrs/$119M to play next year, only sign him for the 2012 season.

You do also understand that the Tigers can still sign Delmon Young for 2012 AND get another outfielder or two and do any number of things to poor Delmon this year including trade him, release him or let him walk after the season is over and not offer arbitration /or/ offer him arbitration at the end of the 2012 season and hopefully collect a draft pick (or two?!?) if he leaves.

Signing Delmon Young for 2012 is not a "dumb" move, it gives the Tigers an extra right handed outfield bat and another trade chip for the year if they want for the 2012 season.

They wouldn't sign delmon and another starting caliber outfielder. It's one or the other.

[TigersSlappy]

Originally Posted by MSUBrian11
And, the Tigers are in serious trouble if Boesch and Jackson are their everyday OF's.

Yeah, that just killed them this year.

LOL, I was just about to type this when I saw your post.

[STLTiger69]

They wouldn't sign delmon and another starting caliber outfielder. It's one or the other.

Look, Brandon Inge made $5.5M this year to play part of the season in AAA. I'm pretty sure your not going to tell me that Inge will be be a starter because he's making the money. Last I heard the Tigers are looking for more 3B help for next year AND Inge will likely still be here.

Ditto Delmon Young. The Tigers will pay him his $6-$6.5M and they will also tell him where and when he'll play. If the Tigers sign Young and say just for fun, Michael Cuddyer or Carlos Beltran was to fall into the Tiger's lap late into the free agency period, I don't see the Tigers saying "no" to that (LOL, "Well, gollie you guys are really good and you could really help our team, but gosh darn we already comitted $6-ish million to Young for a one year contract, sorry fella's were just going to have to pass on you....)

[TigersSlappy]

I just believe that Young will have a good year next year and start living up to his potential. Others may believe I'm being too optimistic, and that's a fair viewpoint, too. He may not, but I think the upside is worth the somewhat lower risk you take when signing aging free agents that have no upside.

I keep trying to convince myself of this.....but am more swayed by the lack of suitable alternatives to think we should bring him back for another year.

[Jeff6851]

?????

Oh yea? Leif Ericson, 970 AD

More seriously, you do know that Delmon Young is only arbitration eligible for 2012 and is not a free agent until AFTER the 2012 season is over. The Tigers do not have to sign Delmon to a insane contract like 7 yrs/$119M to play next year, only sign him for the 2012 season.

You do also understand that the Tigers can still sign Delmon Young for 2012 AND get another outfielder or two and do any number of things to poor Delmon this year including trade him, release him or let him walk after the season is over and not offer arbitration /or/ offer him arbitration at the end of the 2012 season and hopefully collect a draft pick (or two?!?) if he leaves.

Signing Delmon Young for 2012 is not a "dumb" move, it gives the Tigers an extra right handed outfield bat and another trade chip for the year if they want for the 2012 season.

It wouldn't be stupid to keep him it would be stupid to have him be a regular starter.

[TigersSlappy]

Who cares how old Carroll is? <snip> or WHEN Inge falters again.

...corrected that for you. ;-)

[alwaysthrowheat]

Look, Brandon Inge made $5.5M this year to play part of the season in AAA. I'm pretty sure your not going to tell me that Inge will be be a starter because he's making the money. Last I heard the Tigers are looking for more 3B help for next year AND Inge will likely still be here.

Ditto Delmon Young. The Tigers will pay him his $6-$6.5M and they will also tell him where and when he'll play. If the Tigers sign Young and say just for fun, Michael Cuddyer or Carlos Beltran was to fall into the Tiger's lap late into the free agency period, I don't see the Tigers saying "no" to that (LOL, "Well, gollie you guys are really good and you could really help our team, but gosh darn we already comitted $6-ish million to Young for a one year contract, sorry fella's were just going to have to pass on you....)

Why would you deliberately sign someone to a 6MM contract if he's going to be a bench guy? They thought inge was going to be a starter, thats why they signed him to that contract. Why would they fall into the Tigers lap late in free agency? Those types of guys are the ones who are signed first. Beltran will have 5 offers on the table after the first couple of days, or sooner. Same with Cuddyer.

[STLTiger69]

Why would you deliberately sign someone to a 6MM contract if he's going to be a bench guy? They thought inge was going to be a starter, thats why they signed him to that contract. Why would they fall into the Tigers lap late in free agency? Those types of guys are the ones who are signed first. Beltran will have 5 offers on the table after the first couple of days, or sooner. Same with Cuddyer.

Part time player sounds nicer than "bench" guy. I think Young could be a starter or a part time player- depends on what other talent is out there.

[Sven Draconian]

Why would you deliberately sign someone to a 6MM contract if he's going to be a bench guy? They thought inge was going to be a starter, thats why they signed him to that contract. Why would they fall into the Tigers lap late in free agency? Those types of guys are the ones who are signed first. Beltran will have 5 offers on the table after the first couple of days, or sooner. Same with Cuddyer.

Because, the chances of Cabrera, Martinez, Boesch, Jackson and whomever ends up in Left Field playing 162 games a piece is nil (plus, if Martinez is still backing up Avila...).

IF Young (either in the field, or playing DH with V-Mart playing 1st or catcher) is the first guy off the bench for those 6 positions, that would be a full seasons worth of ABs which is easily worth the 6 million (considering the market for a league average bat).

[STLTiger69]

alwaysthrowheat;

Respectfully, here's a bit of my thinking;

One example would be for the Tigers to sign Delmon Young and then sign Coco Crisp. The idea would be to platoon Crisp with Austin Jackson in CF. Have Delmon Young play LF, Crisp in CF. When the Tigers get the lead later in the game then you sit Young, move Crisp to LF, and Jackson comes in to play CF (This also means that Jackson can "cheat" more into RF to help Boesch cover the gap or let Boesch cover closer to the RF foul line). Jackson can get some at bats in less pressure situations and Young and Crisp can grind it out against some better starting pitchers earlier in the game. If Jackson and Young are both hot and Crisp is not, Crisp sits and he an be a good pinch runner (and a base stealer at that) as needed for later in a game. If Young isn't hitting and Crisp is, Crisp can start in LF instead.

I don't disagree that it makes the most financial sense to have a "Delmon Young OR someone else" approach to the off season. Money is money and two players will cost more money than one (lol, typically...). But I really do think the Tigers are not going to let a few million here of there stand in the way of another post season run for next year.

If your worried about Austin Jackson's offense and Delmon Young's defense, another outfielder could be the answer......

[pyrotigers]

Delmon Young would be a nice player to have as a starter vs LHP/4th outfielder vs RHP, the problem is there's basically no chance he isn't making 5-6 million next year, and you already have Ryan Raburn who can do the exact same thing for less money and with the added versatility of being able to (badly) play the infield.

[STLTiger69]

Delmon Young would be a nice player to have as a starter vs LHP/4th outfielder vs RHP, the problem is there's basically no chance he isn't making 5-6 million next year, and you already have Ryan Raburn who can do the exact same thing for less money and with the added versatility of being able to (badly) play the infield.

You raise a good point about Raburn and frankly I think that there seems to be a over abundance of utility players on the Tigers 40 man roster. In Raburn's defense I think he does have talent and that there are a lot of things Raburn can do, just not a lot of things he can do very well and very consistently from what I've seen over a full season.

I know we've had our disagreements about Young in the past and how we value him is quite different. I just feel like the Tigers have to seriously consider this off season which players are going to help the Tigers make the next step (you know...-TOTAL DOMINATION!!!) against those players whom the Tigers can't sit around and make excuses for and "wait" for them to come around. Don Kelly is a great guy, he really works hard at what he does, but is he better than Aramis Ramirez or Carlos Beltran? Same question for Raburn? Is a full season of Santiago, Worth, Rhymes, Raburn (and the soon to be departed Guillen) a better force at 2B for the 2012 season or will simply signing a Kelly Johnson or a Jamie Carroll do the trick and be a significant improvement over 2011?

If Raburn can do exactly the same as Young for 1/2 the money, than clearly Raburn would have more trade value in the off season. Let the Padre's tell their fans "Don't worry, Raburn’s a better second half hitter!" while the Tigers get a outfielder who can hit .280-.300 the WHOLE year. I don't mean to pick on Raburn, I think there are a lot of players on the Tigers that are simply on the roster because the Tigers simply don't have anybody better (lol, look at the back end of the bullpen and tell me what you think too....). If the Tigers really want to be the next "Beast of the Central" then they have to get ride of some suspects and get more of players who have done it in the past and will get it done again for the 2012 season.

[catswithbats]

Was looking through the News' offseason "what's next" photo gallery, and they said Zumaya will be resigned. What are the odds of this actually happening?

[STLTiger69]

Was looking through the News' offseason "what's next" photo gallery, and they said Zumaya will be resigned. What are the odds of this actually happening?

Here's an update (October 4th);

DETROIT -- Relief pitcher Joel Zumaya was a key component for manager Jim Leyland and the Tigers during their 2006 playoff run.

Five years later, Zumaya is in Florida spending time with Leyland's son, Patrick, who is a catcher in the Tigers minor-league system.

“He's down in the Instructional League throwing to Pat, playing catch,” Leyland said. “Pat said he threw pretty good the other day.”

Zumaya has missed the entire season after undergoing right elbow surgery.


Tigers' Joel Zumaya works out in Florida with Jim Leyland's son | MLive.com


My head says no way but my gut tells me he'll get another shot with the Tigers in 2012.

[Yoda]

Word from FL is that Pat has already surrounded himself with his best buds so that if he ****s up someone else can take the fall.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I'm still not a Lloyd fan. The failures of Sizemore and Jackson, along with Inge's refusal to change his ways
and the stories of players going to Miggy for hitting advice - those are all strikes against him.

Peralta was partly due to moving him back to shortstop, I suspect. Maybe I'll hasty about wanting to move
him back to third base. Would Reyes play second base? Have Jhonny give him a ring and pitch that!

Can we get a thread merge also please?

[Ron Burgandy]

I'll take .290/.359/.347 over .222/.304/.413 when it comes to a leadoff or two spot guy

If you really think Jamie Carroll is going to repeat that line after transitioning to the AL at his age, then I suspect you'll be mightily disappointed. Johnson certainly is no sure thing, but given that his issues were mainly BABIP-related, and that he hit well after coming over to Toronto, and I am VERY confident that he will provide significantly more production than Carroll in 2012.

[Ron Burgandy]

Doesn't this contradict what you just said kind of?

I think Johnson will demand a multi-year deal. Caroll will only get a one-year deal.

Not really. I said he wouldn't cost "significantly more." Johnson will likely demand an extra year or two, and maybe a couple million more, but I don't consider that "significant".

[caseyo4]

Illitch made it pretty clear he wants another "big bat" or "big name" in his lineup. He'll spend the money. What position that big-bat will play is a good question, but I think Dombrowski will be able to spend as freely as he feels he needs to.

[IdahoBert]

PhilCokesBrain Phil Coke's Brain
Maybe LBS is some new sabermetric statistic. RT @mcintyrepatrick: I'm very confused about discussions about Prince Fielder to the tigers.
1 minute ago

[catswithbats]

Illitch made it pretty clear he wants another "big bat" or "big name" in his lineup. He'll spend the money. What position that big-bat will play is a good question, but I think Dombrowski will be able to spend as freely as he feels he needs to.

I hope that big bat Ilitch wants plays second or LF.