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  1. #1921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Wilson is jsut going to be tremendously overpaid, especially if he leaves Texas and/or the Al West. Both of those factors make things easier on him and his issues with fastball command are only going to make things harder and harder on him. I'm just really not sure he's any better than Edwin Jackson, a 3rd starter innings eater type. He'd be a solid get at 12 million, at 18 or more, he's a ripoff, especially if its 5,6 o 7 years.
    Leaving Texas will make him much better. Have you seen his home/road splits? Pitching 15 times a year in that bandbox is impossible. The park factor is ridiculous.

    Plus, according to fangraphs, Wilson's fastball is well above average, and so are his other pitches. I'm trying to find stats for certain pitchers divided by pitch, but I'm having trouble. That'd sort this out pretty quickly.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 11-25-2011 at 11:00 PM.

  2. #1922
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    CJ Wilson is going to get overpaid but he's a damn good pitcher. His home/road splits are significant, although interestingly his extra-base-hit numbers evened out between home and road in 2011 (4 more HRs allowed at home but 3 more triples allowed on the road), plus 14 more walks on the road in 2011. In 2010 the home/road split was very dramatic, but his road performance level dropped quite a bit in 2011 which caused the gap narrowing mentioned above.

    My attitude is that the rotation needs to be solidified. I don't think that requires a CJ Wilson, but if the Tigers want to acquire him, I would not object in the least, even if his price is inflated. That having been said, I'd be perfectly happy with Edwin Jackson, or Chris Capuano.
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  3. #1923
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    Wilk is a legit contender for the #5 spot next season. He does very well against RH hitters. I'd like to see him cut the HR's back,
    and judging from some of his minor league splits, it appears that he needs a better breaking pitch against lefties.
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    I guess Mark Buerhle wants out of the AL Central because he thinks this division's hitters have his pitch sequences figured out. He's probably headed to the Nats.

  5. #1925
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    I'd liken the Tigers to sign Big Papi David Ortiz, trade for the Mariners Brandon League, and trade for the Indians Shin Soo Choo

    The marketability of Big League Choo would have me sold for season tickets. :D
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  6. #1926
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    Quote Originally Posted by macedonian bengal View Post
    I'd liken the Tigers to sign Big Papi David Ortiz, trade for the Mariners Brandon League, and trade for the Indians Shin Soo Choo

    The marketability of Big League Choo would have me sold for season tickets. :D
    Why David Ortiz? Do you want to get rid of VMart then?
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  7. #1927
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    Why David Ortiz? Do you want to get rid of VMart then?
    I think he needed Ortiz there to sell the "Big League Choo" joke. I highly doubt they think we will get any of those players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macedonian bengal View Post
    I'd liken the Tigers to sign Big Papi David Ortiz, trade for the Mariners Brandon League, and trade for the Indians Shin Soo Choo

    The marketability of Big League Choo would have me sold for season tickets. :D
    +1 lol....
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  9. #1929
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLTiger69 View Post
    +1 lol....
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  10. #1930
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggyvk View Post
    I've said it before and I still maintain Jackson signs a 3 or 4 year deal this offseason at $10M per. It's a really weak year for free agent SPs. After C.J. Wilson, he's the next best available and some team is going to lose out on Wilson and overpay for Jackson.
    If I were the Tigers I'd seriously consider signing him up at that price. I think he's easily worth 4 yrs $40M. 4 yrs $48 I'd start to hesitate a bit. Dude is only 28 and seems to have one of those arms that's incredibly durable.

    Furthermore, he was tipping his pitches apparently until he got with the White Sox, and he had one awful game with StL that was after a brawl/skirmish where the bullpen was gassed. So he HAD to stay in the game to rest the pen, and could not pitch inside at all. I'm thinking he's a good #2-minus type who will go 200 innings with a 3.5-3.75 ERA/FIP. Combine that with what I believe is a reduced injury risk for a pitcher, and I'll take that for $10M a year every time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    If I were the Tigers I'd seriously consider signing him up at that price. I think he's easily worth 4 yrs $40M. 4 yrs $48 I'd start to hesitate a bit. Dude is only 28 and seems to have one of those arms that's incredibly durable.

    Furthermore, he was tipping his pitches apparently until he got with the White Sox, and he had one awful game with StL that was after a brawl/skirmish where the bullpen was gassed. So he HAD to stay in the game to rest the pen, and could not pitch inside at all. I'm thinking he's a good #2-minus type who will go 200 innings with a 3.5-3.75 ERA/FIP. Combine that with what I believe is a reduced injury risk for a pitcher, and I'll take that for $10M a year every time.
    The only thing is, I don't know if we'll have room in our budget for that. With Verlander making $20MM/year, and Scherzer, Porcello and Fister heading for arbitration raises either this year or next, adding another $10MM pitcher to our rotation might not make sense. I think I'd rather rely on Turner for cheap, and just get a stopgap this year.
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  12. #1932
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    The only thing is, I don't know if we'll have room in our budget for that. With Verlander making $20MM/year, and Scherzer, Porcello and Fister heading for arbitration raises either this year or next, adding another $10MM pitcher to our rotation might not make sense. I think I'd rather rely on Turner for cheap, and just get a stopgap this year.
    That's certainly a consideration. But with no true upgrades available this year with FA, and subsequent off-seasons a year or more away, if I can get Jackson at a good price I'm not going to worry about spending too much on pitching.

    But I suspect based on management's history, they are going to go with the current 4 veterans and Turner/stop gap for this season.
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  13. #1933
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    Signing Big Papi would just be a nepotism deal. His dad, Stan, played for the Tigers back in the '50's.

  14. #1934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Liston View Post
    Signing Big Papi would just be a nepotism deal. His dad, Stan, played for the Tigers back in the '50's.
    It was 1980 when Big Papi's Papa, affectionately known as, "Baby Bambino" played with the Tigers.
    It's pronounced Canada, and no, I haven't.

  15. #1935
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCouga View Post
    The only thing is, I don't know if we'll have room in our budget for that. With Verlander making $20MM/year, and Scherzer, Porcello and Fister heading for arbitration raises either this year or next, adding another $10MM pitcher to our rotation might not make sense. I think I'd rather rely on Turner for cheap, and just get a stopgap this year.
    This is true to an extent, but I don't think stocking up on quality pitching is ever something you will come to regret. You can use one or more of them in trades at some point if not right away. I wouldn't get in a bidding war for Jackson, but I think you have to do it if the value is right. If Jackson had the exact same production but his name was Matt Garza I think many on this board would be ready to throw 15 per at him.

  16. #1936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Liston View Post
    Signing Big Papi would just be a nepotism deal. His dad, Stan, played for the Tigers back in the '50's.
    Nice joke grenade



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  17. #1937
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    That looks like Lee Panas.
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  18. #1938
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    freeptigers Freep Tigers
    RT @SI_JonHeyman: #tigers have inquired on aramis ramirez. Good fit. Would be major offensive upgrade.
    5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


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  19. #1939
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    Tigers Inquired On Aramis Ramirez: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

    Tigers Inquired On Aramis Ramirez
    By Zach Links [November 27, 2011 at 5:41pm CST]

    The Tigers have inquired on free agent third baseman Aramis Ramirez, according to Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated (via Twitter). The Cubs offered arbitration to Ramirez, a Type B free agent, on Wednesday.

    While it's hard to pin down where Ramirez will land, we do know that he won't be back with the Cubs. Ramirez's agent, Paul Kinzer, confirmed to reporters this month that his client plans to move on this offseason.

    Earlier this week, Tim Dierkes wrote that the Tigers, Twins, and Brewers could be fits for Ramirez, if they have the money. Tim could see the veteran getting as much as three years and as much as $42MM when all is said and done.
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  20. #1940
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    I'm not a huge fan of Ramirez. He might still be good next year, but I think we will regret the third year of the deal. Age and injury history are very worrisome, coupled with the alleged attitude issues. I'd rather try to flip Castellanos for Headley.

    Still, it would be a significant upgrade despite the contractual issues. Everyone else we could get will cost prospects, and there's really no other impact bats on the FA market except for 1B/DH. And if anyone can deal with attitude issues, it's Leyland (which is why I think we should keep Young and try to turn him around).

    If we end up getting it done, I won't be complaining too loudly.
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  21. #1941
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    Also, we pretty much always have someone floating around that isn't worth the last year of their contract. Might as well be Ramirez. I don't worry about things like that too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    You seem to have missed the point about adding a bullpen arm. If we could add Mariano Rivera or Brian Wilson, yes, there is some value. We are talking about elite production. That isn't the type of production we can add for a "7th inning" arm. Even if cost wasn't an issue, a stud reliever isn't coming to Detroit to be the 7th inning guy. They want to close, or atleast bet the setup man.

    So who are we going to add that is significantly better than Al Al or Coke?

    And we are only looking for 40-50 innings.
    I'd rather just add someone who has veteran status and can be consistent, even if not lights out. Someone like Takashi Saito (although he may be getting too old this year) or another closer-type that is over the hill but still consistent and serviceable. You just can't rely on Al Al or Perry on a day-to-day basis.
    Distribution of wealth is not in any way democratic. It is, in fact, tyrannical, in that a very select few own almost all of it, while most have little to no access. To have a country that prioritizes wealth over individual rights is the antithesis of democracy.

  23. #1943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Also, we pretty much always have someone floating around that isn't worth the last year of their contract. Might as well be Ramirez. I don't worry about things like that too much.
    I suppose. Someone's got to replace Inge/Guillen/Ordonez/Willis/Robertson/Bonderman/Higginson/Easley.
    Distribution of wealth is not in any way democratic. It is, in fact, tyrannical, in that a very select few own almost all of it, while most have little to no access. To have a country that prioritizes wealth over individual rights is the antithesis of democracy.

  24. #1944
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    Exactly.
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  25. #1945
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    And this Ramirez rumor should be the start of the interesting December as I expect DD to act aggressively now that the CBA has been finalized.

    FWIW, I know Ramirez would be a large offensive upgrade at 3B however I'm certainly not a fan of his - especially at 3/$42. His age, defense, and history of being on poor clubs are all negatives to me. That said though, it's not my money and if he throws up a .870 OPS in 2012 I'll love him:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Ferigno View Post
    FWIW, I know Ramirez would be a large offensive upgrade at 3B however I'm certainly not a fan of his - especially at 3/$42. His age, defense, and history of being on poor clubs are all negatives to me. That said though, it's not my money and if he throws up a .870 OPS in 2012 I'll love him:)
    Personally I wouldn't want to go beyond 2 seasons with Ramirez. I just think when he hits the downward slope, its going to be steep. I suppose if that were to happen, they could just cut bait and write if off to a 2 year deal worth $42 mil, but $14 mil seems like a tidy sum to be tossing to the side.

    That left side of the field could look awfully brutal next season with Peralta, Young, and Ramirez. Holy cow, the Commerica Triangle. I hope Jackson works on his range to his right during the offseason.

  27. #1947
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    3/42 could probably get Aramis right now, but there doesn't appear to be a ton of interest in him so far. Not a huge market for a bad defensive 33 yr old 3b who will probably only be passable at the position for another year or two, yet wants a 3-4 year contract. If the market never heats up, he'd be nice to have on a 2 yr deal, a solid bridge to Nick Castellanos.

    Beck's take:

    Tigers inquire about Aramis Ramirez « Beck's Blog

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    I don't put much stock into the report. Just due diligence. They need a 3B and he's the biggest name 3B on the market. Doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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  29. #1949
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    Jhonny's not a bad shortstop, I don't think. He seemed to make the necessary plays last year. Yoda's right, if you want 2 years of Ramirez you're going to have to pay for a third, at least, and right now we seem to be a little short on bad contracts for 2014. I'll take some sub-par defense at third with an .870 OPS, what a hell of a nice change that would make. We've discussed this before, I probably argued against it last time. What the hell do I know.

  30. #1950
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    Anything that keeps Inge out of the starting lineup...
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  31. #1951
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    I'm a bit torn on Aramis. On one hand, our window to win is in the duration of his contract, which would probably be three years. However, I don't know if he'd be a better overall player than someone else we could acquire through trade.

  32. #1952
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    People were saying our window to win was '06-'09....
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  33. #1953
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    He's worth a look and lets be honest, this is as shocking as a hurricane in Florida. Its a total Dombrowski/Leyland move. Veteran slugger getting a bit long in the tooth but still producing, poor defense. Renteria,Sheffield,VMart,Betemit,Young,Guillen even Peralta fell in that category when we acquired him arguably.

    I don't hate it but I don't love it. I'd like them to be more creative and get someone like Headley or Stewart who is younger, cheaper and a better defender. At the least, I hope Young is traded or non tendered if Ramirez is on the roster. I'd also like Worth,Santiago or someone else who is a defender first as our starting 2B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    I'm a bit torn on Aramis. On one hand, our window to win is in the duration of his contract, which would probably be three years. However, I don't know if he'd be a better overall player than someone else we could acquire through trade.
    We certainly don't have a window. We have a good amount of young talent and whatever talent we have that could be gone after 3 years will either bring something of value back in trade before they are allowed to leave as a FA, be re-signed or at the minimum open up payroll space. Turner and Castellanos shoudl be blossoming young stars by then and many of our players will be in or entering their primes. There isn't a player on our roster I'd be shocked to see still playing in the majors in 4 years and most of them will still be at an age where they are plenty capable of contributing at a high level. Not just the under 25 guys but also guys like Fister,JV,Scherzer and Cabrera. VMart,Peralta and Valverde are the only ones who are particularly likely to see big declines.

  35. #1955
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    I'm a bit torn on Aramis. On one hand, our window to win is in the duration of his contract, which would probably be three years. However, I don't know if he'd be a better overall player than someone else we could acquire through trade.
    IDK, the trends on his UZR project him to basically pylon status in another year or two. Looks like he'd be a better candidate to move to 1st base or DH to finish out his next contract than to play next to a steady but average range shortstop on a team that wants to win.

    ...probably a lock.
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  36. #1956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    We certainly don't have a window. We have a good amount of young talent and whatever talent we have that could be gone after 3 years will either bring something of value back in trade before they are allowed to leave as a FA, be re-signed or at the minimum open up payroll space. Turner and Castellanos shoudl be blossoming young stars by then and many of our players will be in or entering their primes. There isn't a player on our roster I'd be shocked to see still playing in the majors in 4 years and most of them will still be at an age where they are plenty capable of contributing at a high level. Not just the under 25 guys but also guys like Fister,JV,Scherzer and Cabrera. VMart,Peralta and Valverde are the only ones who are particularly likely to see big declines.
    The window certainly won't close after three years. I should have said that our best chance to win a title will be in the next three years, considering the Tigers' two best players on both sides of the ball are in their absolute prime for that duration, and a decent amount of their complementary players will be as well. No one is going to fall off a cliff certaintly, but a player's peak years are 26-29 or so, and most of the core of the team falls in that age category in the next three years, and will be on the other side of it come 2015.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 11-27-2011 at 11:33 PM.

  37. #1957
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    I like Ramirez, but would prefer we fix 2B, lead off (LF?) and a LH starter first.

    My dream scenario would be to sign Coco Crisp to play LF and hit lead off, Kelly Johnson at 2B and send Boesch and Turner to the A's for Gio Gonzalez and Michael Taylor.

    I could live with an Inge / Kelly platoon at 3B with those upgrades.

  38. #1958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    People were saying our window to win was '06-'09....
    I do think it's true that we have a "window to win" over the next three years (as opposed to 06-09). Our two superstars are in their primes and already locked up from 2012-2014 (Cabrera, Verlander); we have a core group of youngsters in arbitration or pre-arbitration status (Fister, Scherzer, Porcello, Turner, Avila, Jackson, Boesch), and then we have some free agents or other acquisitions filling the gap that are signed to affordable contracts (Martinez, Valverde, Peralta, Benoit).

    We won't be able to afford to keep the nucleus together when all the arbitration guys reach contract extension time, nor will we be able to re-sign Verlander and Cabrara, who probably should be making even more than they are right now.

    The 06-09 team wasn't very young...it was a patchwork of stopgaps and aging veterans.

    That's not to say that we won't trade away pieces of our rotation for more prospects to fill in after 2014 and compete then as well, but I think having such a large core all in their primes and cost-controlled at the same time is pretty rare in baseball. Even if you look at the BoSox, Yankees, and Phillies, those teams are supported mostly by sheer payroll and a patchwork of slightly over-the-hill veterans that are still producing just enough to win. This team doesn't have the payroll luxuries that those guys have in being able to resign players at will. But we are well-positioned to be one of the elite teams in baseball at least until 2014.
    Last edited by TheCouga; 11-28-2011 at 12:52 AM.
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  39. #1959
    sabretooth's Avatar
    sabretooth is offline MotownSports Fan
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    I can live with Ramirez at 3B if we were to acquire someone with a good glove at 2B. Peralta was actually a pretty good defensive SS in 2011. Steady, low-errors with decent range.
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  40. #1960
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    Lots of buzz about the Tigers kicking the tires on both Aramis Ramirez and Mark Buerhle. I'm down with both of those.
    Yeah might have to overpay with a third year to land Aramis, I suspect.

    I really don't want Delmon Young back - but Coco Crisp might even be a worse option. DeJesus is my target.
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