Austin Jackson

**jake** · 10-15-2011, 11:42 PM

I have NEVER seen a CF choke defensively like he did. He was dropping fly balls, missing grounders. Anybody see a defensive choke by a CF?? Baffling.

**wockenfussy** · 10-15-2011, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by jake

I have NEVER seen a CF choke defensively like he did. He was dropping fly balls, missing grounders. Anybody see a defensive choke by a CF?? Baffling.

He would look good in a Houston Astros uniform next opening day.

**illmatic774** · 10-15-2011, 11:50 PM

I can't believe I dislike that man/baseball player as much as I do, and he's probably a swell human being at that.

I just don't want his baseball skills associated with the Tigers, even knowing that he's young.

**sabretooth** · 10-16-2011, 12:01 AM

Ajax provided a powerful combination of zero defense and zero hitting for the postseason.

**Gehringer_2** · 10-16-2011, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by sabretooth

Ajax provided a powerful combination of zero defense and zero hitting for the postseason.

He needs to go to Florida - tomorrow - to start working with a hitting coach. Anything less will be a demonstration of a disturbing lack of the drive necessary to turn himself into a useful major league hitter.

**OzzyKP** · 10-16-2011, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by sabretooth

Ajax provided a powerful combination of zero defense and zero hitting for the postseason.

Didn't he hit better than Avila?

**sabretooth** · 10-16-2011, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by OzzyKP

Didn't he hit better than Avila?

Avila was more horribler at the plate, yes, but he had a semi-legit excuse in terms of being beaten up...and Avila fielded his position pretty well.

**Tramfan** · 10-16-2011, 12:41 AM

... and Avila didn't strike out 181 times this year with little to no power. Heck, I even think Avila got on base once in a while ...

**sarulle** · 10-16-2011, 07:54 AM

I am not a huge Jackson fan but I would bring him back. He is still young and did great in the outfield up until the playoffs. I would not in any way shape or form lead off with him. I have no idea what Lelande was thinking but then I disagree alot with JL's decisions.

**Hart** · 10-16-2011, 08:05 AM

I think even after this playoff performance, the Tigers are committed to Jackson. They really have no choice because they have nobody to take his place from within.

I would like to see Jackson work to refine his defensive skills this offseason. It seems like he relies purely on his athleticism but there are definitely plays he has the ability to make in the outfield that he does not.

**Gehringer_2** · 10-16-2011, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hart

I think even after this playoff performance, the Tigers are committed to Jackson. They really have no choice because they have nobody to take his place from within.

I would like to see Jackson work to refine his defensive skills this offseason. It seems like he relies purely on his athleticism but there are definitely plays he has the ability to make in the outfield that he does not.

Not sure what skills you mean. As an outfielder, he has more technique than anyone else we have had in a long time. Little details like positioning and approach to the ball in the sun, getting to the spot before the ball instead of the more common but less sure method of running to meet the ball, his ability to catch the ball in almost every possible glove position ( overhand, basket, over the shoulder), effortless ability to look off the ball and pick it back up, very good positioning when backing up another fielder. Other than his reluctance to dive, the value of which I think is highly overrated (diving in the OF comes down in many cases to the same arguments as sliding into 1st.) I don't see much to criticize in his OF play other than the clear loss of concentration in the field he suffered as his hitting collapsed at the end of the season.

OTOH, as a hitter I'd say he is pretty much a basket case right now.

**MSUBrian11** · 10-16-2011, 09:10 AM

Austin Jackson = Nook Logan. He will be out of baseball in a couple years. I love how everyone got really super duper excited after his fluke season last year. He is not good, and will be nothing more than a .250 hitter, unless he totally reworks his swing.

EDITED by RR

**DaYooperASBDT** · 10-16-2011, 09:11 AM

I blame his biorhythms.

**Yoda** · 10-16-2011, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by MSUBrian11

Austin Jackson = Nook Logan. He will be out of baseball in a couple years. I love how everyone jizzed their pants after his fluke season last year. He is not good, and will be nothing more than a .250 hitter, unless he totally reworks his swing.

Keeping it classy, as you always do.

**baseball3** · 10-16-2011, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by sarulle

I am not a huge Jackson fan but I would bring him back. He is still young and did great in the outfield up until the playoffs. I would not in any way shape or form lead off with him. I have no idea what Lelande was thinking but then I disagree alot with JL's decisions.

This is kind of funny, they got rid of Curtis Granderson for far less sins than Austin Jackson has committed in the playoffs and regular season. Just sayin'

**MSUBrian11** · 10-16-2011, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda

Keeping it classy, as you always do.

What was wrong with what I said?

**ScrubBeaterUpper** · 10-16-2011, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by MSUBrian11

What was wrong with what I said?

The Jizz part.

**Dunkin Darvin** · 10-16-2011, 09:43 AM

Given his age, his defensive ability (postseason aside), the fact he is the only guy with any speed they have right now and how cheap he is at this point in his career he'll be back. I'm sure they'll do a lot of work with him at the plate this winter though.

**MSUBrian11** · 10-16-2011, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by ScrubBeaterUpper

The Jizz part.

oh my bad, figured it was alright because it wasn't censored. I changed it to creamed.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 10-16-2011, 12:25 PM

Jackson isn't going to win or lose us games most of the time. He's pretty average. If you're just going to give him away, who are we going to get to play CF? They don't grow on trees like RF/LF/1B/DH.

**itsallgood8989** · 10-16-2011, 12:26 PM

Lets not forget that we (The Tiger's) had a lot of young players on this roster and this was their first exposure to the playoffs. Disappointed, sure. But this experience of beating the Yankees and playing in the ALCS will be invaluable to the Jackson's, Avilia, Perry, Schlereth, Scherzer and Porcello.

We want to be careful and not overeact and trade pieces that may turn out to be plus players in a few years. I think our young core is a great thing to build on. I would not trade any of the pieces I listed above as an example. I expect each of those guys to improve going forward.

I think that the biggest issue with AJax's is the fact that he had such a good first year that everyone's expectations were not realistic. I think the same may hold true for Avilia next year. We need to stay patient and let these guys develope. Porcello is another good example. We all get frustrated because we think he has been around forever and isn't a #1 yet! The kid is only 22 years old!

We need to stay the course, add some pieces and we will be right back in the playoffs next year and years to come battling for the World Series!

**Oblong** · 10-16-2011, 12:36 PM

not a fan of Jackson. The issue is he until he straightens out at the plate, he should be lower in the order. That's not his fault. As for his defense this post season.... that could be positioning mistakes made by thecoaching/scouting staff. He's shown over 2 seasons to give up on him defensively.

**jake** · 10-16-2011, 01:14 PM

The alarming part for me is how a guy can get to the point where he's dropping fly balls because he's in his own head so much. That's why he's striking out so much. It's a mental thing. He has all the physical tools but he needs a new mental approach. His swing is good. There is no way he should strike out so much. He's great in the outfield . . . yet he's dropping fly balls. Mental all the way.

**Jeff6851** · 10-16-2011, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by jake

The alarming part for me is how a guy can get to the point where he's dropping fly balls because he's in his own head so much. That's why he's striking out so much. It's a mental thing. He has all the physical tools but he needs a new mental approach. His swing is good. There is no way he should strike out so much. He's great in the outfield . . . yet he's dropping fly balls. Mental all the way.

He's a young guy and batting lead off. It was 100% mental, it really showed in the playoffs.

**sabretooth** · 10-16-2011, 03:05 PM

The Tigers are completely committed to Jackson. There are no other options within the organization, and trying to acquire someone better is an expensive crapshoot with the people available. He should have some peak seasons coming up where he could be a solid average hitting CF for a year or two. I would not look to move him off the team, just out of the #1 slot in the batting order to #9.

**Verlander MVP 2011** · 10-16-2011, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by sabretooth

The Tigers are completely committed to Jackson. There are no other options within the organization, and trying to acquire someone better is an expensive crapshoot with the people available. He should have some peak seasons coming up where he could be a solid average hitting CF for a year or two. I would not look to move him off the team, just out of the #1 slot in the batting order to #9.

Sums up my feelings exactly. Good post.

I really think moving him down in the order would take pressure off him, and thus increase his offensive production... Maybe not by much, but a little bit.

Got to find a lead off hitter. That should be the number one priority this off-season.

**Who is the Drizzle?** · 10-16-2011, 05:59 PM

I don't get the hate. He dropped a couple balls in CF and had a few just out of his reach. It happens. I don't recall any of those really hurting the team so at least he got away with it for the most part. His horribleness at the plate in the postseason has been exaggerated because of the strikeouts. He's not a prototypical leadoff guy, but it's not his fault the Tigers don't have another leadoff hitter.

Next year he'll be exceptional in the OF and below average at the plate and still be a very valuable player. And who knows, maybe this was just a sophomore slump at the plate.

**Gehringer_2** · 10-16-2011, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle?

I don't get the hate. He dropped a couple balls in CF and had a few just out of his reach. It happens. I don't recall any of those really hurting the team so at least he got away with it for the most part. His horribleness at the plate in the postseason has been exaggerated because of the strikeouts. He's not a prototypical leadoff guy, but it's not his fault the Tigers don't have another leadoff hitter.

Next year he'll be exceptional in the OF and below average at the plate and still be a very valuable player. And who knows, maybe this was just a sophomore slump at the plate.

No hate here, just a worry about whether he has the ambition and/or courage to try and remake himself as a hitter. It's a huge step into the unknown, but for sure what is known is that very very very few guys ever significantly cut their K rates without major surgery to their approach, and the only way he can be successful at his current K rate is to somehow morph into Adam Dunn (pre '11) power, which ain't gonna happen.

**bob2009** · 10-16-2011, 07:50 PM

Jackson was fine until he had a full year under McLendon. People may laugh at that comment, but McLendon is generally not known as being an outstanding hitting coach. You don't go from being the top prospect in the Yankee system to this overnight on your own. As further documentation of that, Curtis Granderson hit 40+ points higher against lefties in 2011 than 2010 and had the highest average against lefties in 2011 than at any time in his career. He also cut way down on his K's. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.....

I seriously think Jackson should be in winter ball somewhere working on his swing mechanics. He has the physical skills to be a gifted leadoff hitter, but not now. The tigers will not trade him anytime soon, because that would be admitting failure for Dombrowski, who, at this point, looks like he got screwed on the Granderson trade. That may not hold true in the long term, but as of now it does.

**john doe** · 10-16-2011, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by sabretooth

The Tigers are completely committed to Jackson. There are no other options within the organization, and trying to acquire someone better is an expensive crapshoot with the people available. He should have some peak seasons coming up where he could be a solid average hitting CF for a year or two. I would not look to move him off the team, just out of the #1 slot in the batting order to #9.

They have to be committed too him because they gave up Granderson for him. I still hate that trade.

**sabretooth** · 10-16-2011, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by john doe

They have to be committed too him because they gave up Granderson for him. I still hate that trade.

Yeah, you and me both...I love having Scherzer, but against my judgment at the time of the trade Edwin Jackson has proven to be his equal, albeit more expensive (but frankly I don't care about the extra $$ we would have had to spend). I believe we'll have a hole in our lineup in 2012 with some regression on Peralta/Avila/Martinez that could have been filled already by keeping Grandy.

Oh well, the trade is practically ancient history in baseball terms now...anyway if Avila and Peralta continue to be two-way pluses in 2012 and beyond I think we can continue to make the playoffs fairly consistently for at least two - four years with the current core of players.

**Charlie1** · 10-17-2011, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by MSUBrian11

Austin Jackson = Nook Logan. He will be out of baseball in a couple years. I love how everyone creamed their pants after his fluke season last year. He is not good, and will be nothing more than a .250 hitter, unless he totally reworks his swing.

He has attitude problems, too. Twice he struck out recently, and sashayed back to the bench, even though the catcher booted the pitch.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 10-17-2011, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by bob2009

Jackson was fine until he had a full year under McLendon. People may laugh at that comment, but McLendon is generally not known as being an outstanding hitting coach. You don't go from being the top prospect in the Yankee system to this overnight on your own. As further documentation of that, Curtis Granderson hit 40+ points higher against lefties in 2011 than 2010 and had the highest average against lefties in 2011 than at any time in his career. He also cut way down on his K's. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.....

I seriously think Jackson should be in winter ball somewhere working on his swing mechanics. He has the physical skills to be a gifted leadoff hitter, but not now. The tigers will not trade him anytime soon, because that would be admitting failure for Dombrowski, who, at this point, looks like he got screwed on the Granderson trade. That may not hold true in the long term, but as of now it does.

I'm certainly no Lloyd apologist. I actually don't really like him all that much. Never have. But to attribute Jackson's struggles to Lloyd is lunacy. Jackson is hitting in the majors just like his minor league equivalent projected him to. Little power, high babip, a lot of strike outs. You anecdotal evidence of Granderson isn't helpful either. It can easily by countered with the resurgance of Jhonny Peralta, and Alex Avila as a budding star. Also, Montero was still the best hitting prospect/prospect overall in the Yankees system at that time.

Here is the mlb.com scouting report on jackson in 2009: Jackson is a top-notch athlete who was signed away from a basketball scholarship by the Yankees. He's got very good speed that he uses on both sides of the ball. Depending on whom you ask, Jackson will either grow into more power or won't hit for much pop. To be a top-of-the-order type, he'll have to cut down on the strikeouts and be more selective. He's very good defensively in center.

Doesn't look too much different now does it? If you're blaming Lloyd, certainly you're mad that Austin hasn't gotten rid of his leg kick, and his timing is pretty bad. He's usually late. Maybe Lloyd has tried. Maybe Austin doesn't listen. Maybe Lloyd has worked countless hours with Austin on his timing, and they do thousands of drills and reps, watch hours upon hours of film, and Austin still can't execute it in the game (my guess). Maybe Austin likes the leg kick. No one really knows.

Let's wait a few more years to see how this trade pans out. Last year it was a huge success, this year it's a failure. Neither Scherzer nor Jackson has even entered their prime years yet. The biggest failure in the trade so far was the inability to identify Ian Kennedy as an absolute beast.

**PuNk42AE** · 10-17-2011, 01:25 AM

As it's been pointed out if AJax was in the 8 or 9 hole it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Still would be a problem for a CF avg that low and his strike outs, but with it being his second season a little forgivable.

This post season he was tied for the most AB on the team (41) with Avila and Peralta. He ended up with the 4th most hits on the team, 5th in RBI, 2nd in walks, 1st in strike outs (by only 3, Avila). He ended up with the 6th best OBP in the Post season for us.

**sabretooth** · 10-17-2011, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat

I'm certainly no Lloyd apologist. I actually don't really like him all that much. Never have. But to attribute Jackson's struggles to Lloyd is lunacy. Jackson is hitting in the majors just like his minor league equivalent projected him to. Little power, high babip, a lot of strike outs. You anecdotal evidence of Granderson isn't helpful either. It can easily by countered with the resurgance of Jhonny Peralta, and Alex Avila as a budding star. Also, Montero was still the best hitting prospect/prospect overall in the Yankees system at that time.

Here is the mlb.com scouting report on jackson in 2009: Jackson is a top-notch athlete who was signed away from a basketball scholarship by the Yankees. He's got very good speed that he uses on both sides of the ball. Depending on whom you ask, Jackson will either grow into more power or won't hit for much pop. To be a top-of-the-order type, he'll have to cut down on the strikeouts and be more selective. He's very good defensively in center.

Doesn't look too much different now does it? If you're blaming Lloyd, certainly you're mad that Austin hasn't gotten rid of his leg kick, and his timing is pretty bad. He's usually late. Maybe Lloyd has tried. Maybe Austin doesn't listen. Maybe Lloyd has worked countless hours with Austin on his timing, and they do thousands of drills and reps, watch hours upon hours of film, and Austin still can't execute it in the game (my guess). Maybe Austin likes the leg kick. No one really knows.

Let's wait a few more years to see how this trade pans out. Last year it was a huge success, this year it's a failure. Neither Scherzer nor Jackson has even entered their prime years yet. The biggest failure in the trade so far was the inability to identify Ian Kennedy as an absolute beast.

+1

Granderson's transformation from a GB to FB hitter is the basis for his success in 2011; that transformation began in 2009 with the Tigers. Maybe this was Grandy's doing all by himself, but Peralta's sticking with FB hitting after coming over and Avila's transformation to effectiveness should reflect well on Lloyd.

**Sting** · 10-17-2011, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

Lets not forget that we (The Tiger's) had a lot of young players on this roster and this was their first exposure to the playoffs. Disappointed, sure. But this experience of beating the Yankees and playing in the ALCS will be invaluable to the Jackson's, Avilia, Perry, Schlereth, Scherzer and Porcello.

We want to be careful and not overeact and trade pieces that may turn out to be plus players in a few years. I think our young core is a great thing to build on. I would not trade any of the pieces I listed above as an example. I expect each of those guys to improve going forward.

I think that the biggest issue with AJax's is the fact that he had such a good first year that everyone's expectations were not realistic. I think the same may hold true for Avilia next year. We need to stay patient and let these guys develope. Porcello is another good example. We all get frustrated because we think he has been around forever and isn't a #1 yet! The kid is only 22 years old!

We need to stay the course, add some pieces and we will be right back in the playoffs next year and years to come battling for the World Series!

Great post. I totally agree.

**catswithbats** · 10-17-2011, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat

I'm certainly no Lloyd apologist. I actually don't really like him all that much. Never have. But to attribute Jackson's struggles to Lloyd is lunacy. Jackson is hitting in the majors just like his minor league equivalent projected him to. Little power, high babip, a lot of strike outs. You anecdotal evidence of Granderson isn't helpful either. It can easily by countered with the resurgance of Jhonny Peralta, and Alex Avila as a budding star. Also, Montero was still the best hitting prospect/prospect overall in the Yankees system at that time.

Here is the mlb.com scouting report on jackson in 2009: Jackson is a top-notch athlete who was signed away from a basketball scholarship by the Yankees. He's got very good speed that he uses on both sides of the ball. Depending on whom you ask, Jackson will either grow into more power or won't hit for much pop. To be a top-of-the-order type, he'll have to cut down on the strikeouts and be more selective. He's very good defensively in center.

Doesn't look too much different now does it? If you're blaming Lloyd, certainly you're mad that Austin hasn't gotten rid of his leg kick, and his timing is pretty bad. He's usually late. Maybe Lloyd has tried. Maybe Austin doesn't listen. Maybe Lloyd has worked countless hours with Austin on his timing, and they do thousands of drills and reps, watch hours upon hours of film, and Austin still can't execute it in the game (my guess). Maybe Austin likes the leg kick. No one really knows.

Let's wait a few more years to see how this trade pans out. Last year it was a huge success, this year it's a failure. Neither Scherzer nor Jackson has even entered their prime years yet. The biggest failure in the trade so far was the inability to identify Ian Kennedy as an absolute beast.

Excellent post.

**Ron Burgandy** · 10-17-2011, 09:10 AM

Admittedly, I'm not a scout, but I don't think that Jackson has to rework his swing so much as his timing at the plate. During the playoffs, he was rarely fooled on his swing and misses, but rather simply swung through the ball. The fact that he is missing so frequently on fastballs in the zone, with his bat moving through the proper plane but just at the wrong time, is actually a good thing I'd think in terms of his ability to improve quickly.

I'd recommend that Jackson go back and read about the change that Jose Bautista made in his timing at the plate, which ultimately propelled Bautista to super-stardom. If Jackson reworks his timing, and if the Tigers can move him down to the bottom of the order, I suspect we'll see a much improved player in 2012.

One comment made during the playoffs which I thought was quite accurate re Jackson was that he looked like a young Mike Cameron. I think that's probably right, and a good way to temper expectations. Austin is never going to be a Jacoby Ellsbury type leadoff hitter. He's going to be a very good defensive CF, with mediocre average and some pop at the plate. That's still a valuable player, but he has to be used properly, which in this case means hitting no higher than 7th in the lineup.

**caseyo4** · 10-17-2011, 09:14 AM

If we hadn't gotten him in the Granderson trade, he would have been out of the lineup sooner. Tigers seem to be trying to force him to work out to help justify the trade. I just don't see him as a leadoff hitter, let alone a starting center fielder in the major leagues right now. I hope he proves me wrong next year.

**Ron Burgandy** · 10-17-2011, 09:20 AM

One more point on Jackson which bears repeating, is that even with his struggles at the plate this year he still produced 2.8 WAR, largely due to his fielding. So even if he never improves at the plate, he still provides some real value if utilized properly. However, I suspect that we will see some improvement moving forward, in which case giving up on him now would be an enormously short-sighted mistake.