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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Flamenco View Post
    a 25 year old former #1 pick who hit .298 with 21 HR's and 121 RBI's last year for a single A pitcher I've never heard of?! Sold!
    I couldn't have said it better myself.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabretooth View Post
    Breaking down Young:

    - he's basically a right-handed Brennan Boesch circa 2010. Pretty good LD hitter, not enough FBs (only 35 – 40%), too many GBs (45 – 50%) too many popups (see below).

    Key stat: over his career, Young has averaged 6% of his FBs (or about 2% of his total batted balls) for popups, and about 9% (or about 3% of total batted balls) for HRs. In 2011 he has doubled his popup rate and cut his HR rate in half vs. career norms, and his HR rate first year at the new Twins stadium in 2010 was actually higher (10%) than his career norm.

    The popup numbers tend to fluctuate a bit, but each player has his “normal”, so I don’t expect the popup weirdness to continue. Also, HR power doesn’t just disappear unless there’s an injury/change of scenery/age/etc. None of these conditions seem to apply, so I don’t see why his HR power would be down.

    On the plus side, Young doesn’t strike out very much, and his walks, while being below average, seem to be improving a bit over time.

    His BABIP by trajectory is a little weird – over his career he’s had a FB BABIP (non-HR) of .148 over 700 PAs, which is higher than the norm of 135, which he’s on track with so far this year. If he were to be on track with his personal norm, he’d pick up 4 hits, probably doubles.

    So assuming his FB BABIP, popups and HRs were to normalize, you’d have this line for 2011 so far:

    289/330/435/765 wOBA of 335

    At age 26, sound familiar? This is the same exact facts I observed for Boesch near the beginning of this season (relative mostly to 2010 and his minor-league numbers), and the statements I made were basically the same as this: HIT MORE FLYBALLS DUMMY!!

    If Young follows in Peralta’s footsteps (as Boesch seems to have started to do, although not enough), and becomes a flyball hitter, I think he has a chance (like Boesch) to hold down a regular job for at least few years, provided he (and Boesch) can improve on the fielding negatives and make themselves more average glove-men.

    Given Young’s age and contract status this could wind up being a real steal, esp. if the Tigers’ coaches can help to transform his hitting style to more of a power-friendly approach.
    Young plays terrible D, so he's not a late inning defensive replacement by any means. He's been worth 1.8 WAR in 689 games. He's going to get a raise from his 5.4 MM salary this year in arb. He's a clubhouse cancer and walks 4% of the time. They'll non-tender him after the year is over. This is a temporary fix and nothing else.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truman Show View Post
    Cleveland would have gotten a higher waiver priority than the Tigers have, so if the Indians wanted him, they would have him.
    Of course, the question is- Why would the Indians want him? Why would anyone want Delmon Young? He's just terrible. :( Good news, we can easily dump him at the end of the season. I'm not upset at the trade (depending on the PTBNL), but I'm not clear Delmon Young upgrades us in the OF at all. He's at least as bad defensively as Magglio (probably worse at 25), and is just not a good hitter. No discipline, little power. He's gone from hitting the occasional homer last year to popping the ball up 13% of the time. For the "productive out" crowd, you'll like him. He doesn't strike out all that much. He just hits lots of weak grounders and popups. Really, there is only two good things- We can dump him fast, and if we don't, he is 25. I guess there is some chance he will improve. I doubt it, but it could happen.

    For crying out loud, his season OPS is almost the same as Ryan Raburns. Unfortunately, Raburn has been actually hot for July/Aug, with an over .800 OPS. For the same period, Young is around .760. And folks, Young is a significantly worse fielder than Raburn. Why wouldn't you just play Raburn and bench Ordonez?

    Rob
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny T View Post
    I couldn't have said it better myself.
    Or one who has been worth -43 runs on defense in 5 seasons (even worse by other measures than UZR) and only walks 4% of the time with below average power for a corner OF. Either way.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Microline133 View Post
    I guess when DD told me 30 minutes ago to contact the scouting department about Tyler Gibson because he was "in the middle of some other things," he wasn't kidding!
    Interesting, I would have taken that to mean that DD was on his way to Kohl's to buy a shirt that wasn't neon green or striped pink or something.
    The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves. - George Washington August 26, 1776.

  6. #206
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    Groundballio has hit 17 ground balls, 3 line drives, 7 fly balls in the last 6 days. 17/27 is obviously a small sample size, but he's hitting weak 29 hop worm burners to short pretty regularly.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by irvink View Post
    I know their circumstances are not exactly the same, but look what happened to Maybin (another first round pick with excellent tools) after leaving FLA. He's finally blossomed with his new (3rd) team this year. This will be Young's 3rd team and he's only 1 year older than Maybe, and has already had some success in the bigs. This is a good, low-risk/potentially high reward type move that I love to see the team take.
    You do realize he makes $5.4 million this year? I mean, this is not a zero outlay player, and his production is worse than zero.

    Folks should understand- I'm not bashing the trade per se. We didn't appear to give up anything, so no harm done. I'm just horrified at the prospect of a loser like Delmon Young being a corner OF for the next few years.

    Rob
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Or one who has been worth -43 runs on defense in 5 seasons (even worse by other measures than UZR) and only walks 4% of the time with below average power for a corner OF. Either way.
    Yeah, this is what people don't get- Really folks, he's a worse OF than Ordonez or Raburn.

    The Tigers needed to sit Magglio. He's just done. But this.. Ick.

    Rob
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  9. #209
    ballmich is offline MotownSports Fan
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    I don't like this trade from the standpoint that we have Dmitri Young's brother on our team. That guy still owes us a year's salary for playing just long enough to vest his option, then going on the DL for the rest of the season the next day.
    The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves. - George Washington August 26, 1776.

  10. #210
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    I have a bad feeling that Dirks will get sent down when Guillen comes back... that is if Guillen is back before the rosters expand.
    AAT: 2011 E. Young (67th) | 2012 B. Inge (24th)/B. Eldred/Q. Berry | 2013 M. Henneman (84th) | 2014 A. Jackson (22nd)/D. Price

  11. #211
    Truth is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobSk View Post
    Yeah, this is what people don't get- Really folks, he's a worse OF than Ordonez or Raburn.

    The Tigers needed to sit Magglio. He's just done. But this.. Ick.

    Rob
    The Tigers disregard for defense prevents me from taking them too seriously.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth View Post
    The Tigers disregard for defense prevents me from taking them too seriously.
    It's not a disregard, it's just very hard to find two way players.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Young plays terrible D, so he's not a late inning defensive replacement by any means. He's been worth 1.8 WAR in 689 games. He's going to get a raise from his 5.4 MM salary this year in arb. He's a clubhouse cancer and walks 4% of the time. They'll non-tender him after the year is over. This is a temporary fix and nothing else.
    ur entitled to your opinion, but forgive me if i more influenced by a dozen or so paragraphs of ground up, detailed analysis that sabretooth gave than this drive-by quick and dirty overview.
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. - DDE
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    It's not a disregard, it's just very hard to find two way players.
    Yes, I know, it's just frustrating. And I don't think the offense some of these bats produce offsets their defensive deficiencies.

  15. #215
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    A mild upgrade over maggs at the cost of a million bucks or so and a couple minor league org guys. It's a no brainer to make this deal. I think they might tender him a contract in the offseason, but only if he has a good six weeks here. More likely, he doesn't do much, we let him go, and we go with dirks in 2012 or sign a free agent.
    AAT: Ian Kinsler

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    ur entitled to your opinion, but forgive me if i more influenced by a dozen or so paragraphs of ground up, detailed analysis that sabretooth gave than this drive-by quick and dirty overview.
    What does length of analysis have to do with it? Sabre basically said Delmon is a .330 wOBA hitter, who should continue around a .750-.780 OPS going forward. And if he hits more fly balls, could be better. There's nothing in there about his awful defense, which basically negates his barely above average hitting for a corner OF.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 08-15-2011 at 05:49 PM.

  17. #217
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    I think signing DY would have been a great move this off-season. He has talent but needs work on harnessing it, and that's something that's not going to happen in the next couple months. Maybe they can do what they did with Peralta and sign him at less that what he's due in arbitration.

    On the bright side, if it means less Wil Rhymes and Magglio, it's going to help.

    Also curious to see what happens with him hitting in front of Miguel....DY is notoriously a free-swinger, but with pitchers presumably nervous about walking anybody in front of Miggy, I wonder how they'll pitch him. Might he see better pitches even without a change in plate discipline, or is he such a free-swinger that they'll still throw balls without fear of a walk?
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. - DDE
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  18. #218
    tigersrok is offline Released
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    I don't mind the pick up (if the PTBNL is not a significant prospect), but I don't think Young should be offered arbitration after the season.

    He's the type of player Dombrowski loves, though. Low OBP (no plate discipline), bad defense, marginal power.

  19. #219
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    The more I research this trade the more I like it. As someone else mentioned, the upside of Young is huge. I have a feeling he's goign to tear it up going forward.
    I like a man who grins when he fights--- Sir Winston Churchill.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    So just because Sabretooth gave a long and detaled analysis makes mine incorrect? Sabre basically said Delmon is a .330 wOBA hitter, who should continue around a .750-.780 OPS going forward. And if he hits more fly balls, could be better. There's nothing in there about his awful defense, which basically negates his barely above average hitting for a corner OF.
    Not incorrect, just far less detailed and less useful.

    His fielding is interesting, he's been pretty bad across the board fielding from 2007-2010, and then all of the sudden every defensive stat says he's above average this year. It might be similar to Peralta, a lot of people were sure he couldn't play shortstop, but if you looked at the stats he wasn't as awful as when his rep was made.
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. - DDE
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigersrok View Post
    I don't mind the pick up (if the PTBNL is not a significant prospect), but I don't think Young should be offered arbitration after the season.

    He's the type of player Dombrowski loves, though. Low OBP (no plate discipline), bad defense, marginal power.
    Ha, yes he is. From everything I'm reading in the last hour or so he's also not considered very coachable. So there is that added twist as evidence that Dombrowski is branching out a bit.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    ur entitled to your opinion, but forgive me if i more influenced by a dozen or so paragraphs of ground up, detailed analysis that sabretooth gave than this drive-by quick and dirty overview.
    Mr. Sabre, if I may speak for him, seemed to frame his conclusion in terms of a conditional:

    If Young follows in Peralta’s footsteps (as Boesch seems to have started to do, although not enough), and becomes a flyball hitter, I think he has a chance (like Boesch) to hold down a regular job for at least few years, provided he (and Boesch) can improve on the fielding negatives and make themselves more average glove-men.

    He's recognized that DY is a terrible fielder, and that he's had major problems with the stick - He's speculating (with some merit) that perhaps DY can follow the same path as others to stop sucking.

    Clearly, it happens, and he's still young (haha). But Mr. Always Throw Wheat is, IMO, speaking somewhat more realistically- Most guys DO NOT massively improve past 25.

    Rob
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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    Not incorrect, just far less detailed and less useful.

    His fielding is interesting, he's been pretty bad across the board fielding from 2007-2010, and then all of the sudden every defensive stat says he's above average this year. It might be similar to Peralta, a lot of people were sure he couldn't play shortstop, but if you looked at the stats he wasn't as awful as when his rep was made.
    There's plenty of data to support him being a bad fielder. This year is the outlier.

    Even if he were an average fielder, which he's not, he'd still have a pretty big price tag for next year, not to mention he's not exactly an agreeable clubhouse guy. I think Dirks will perform similarly, probably better, and not cost ~6-7 MM.
    Last edited by alwaysthrowheat; 08-15-2011 at 05:57 PM.

  24. #224
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    Talk about a move coming completely unexpected.
    Avisail Garcia, OF (2013 Adopt - A - Tiger) TRADED JULY 30, 2013
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  25. #225
    Sven Draconian is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Pretty good deal here. A young hitter with lots of potential and has proven a little at the major league level already. Give him a look for 6 weeks, if he looks workable, you bring him back and hope he's a late bloomer. If he really is as big of a jackass as his repuation indicates, you cut bait and don't lose any real assets in the process.

    You also give a little kick in the *** to the Raburns and Ordonez of the world, see if it helps.

    This deal probably won't help much at all, but it's a decent gamble with no real downside.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    This deal probably won't help much at all, but it's a decent gamble with no real downside.
    If it's worth one game, with how close things are .. that might be enough.

  27. #227
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    More directly, Young and Boesch have been friends since childhood, and have worked out together the past few offseasons. Boesch was the first person Young looked for in the Tigers clubhouse, which hadn’t heard about the trade.

    “Everyone was looking confused when I walked in the clubhouse,” Young said. “I don’t think anyone knew what happened. Me and Boesch, we go back. Since we were little kids, we trained together in the offseason, we hang out a lot. It’s always good when you go to a place where you have some friends.”

    Tigers acquire Young from Twins « Beck Blog
    For some reason this makes me feel better about some of the misgivings. Boesch seems to take his game seriously so maybe he'll bring out the best in his friend.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    There's plenty of data to support him being a bad fielder. This year is the outlier.

    Even if he were an average fielder, which he's not, he'd still have a pretty big price tag for next year, not to mention he's not exactly an agreeable clubhouse guy. I think Dirks will perform similarly, probably better, and not cost ~6-7 MM.
    I'm sure they won't offer arbitration unless he hits like he did last year for the rest of the season.

    I was probably a bit too harsh on your post. But I kind of view these things like stocks: it's easy to analyze what's already happened and what today's value is; but what really matters is predicting future value. Nobody is going to argue that he hasn't been a bad defender over his career or that he hasn't been a bad hitter this year or that his contract doesn't make his current value limited.

    The real questions that pertain to future value/performance are whether he's turned the corner this season after an awful april and may, is he on an improving trend defensively over his career, is there enough of a chance that a different approach/new set of coaches/change of scenery helps achieve previous success?
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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    I'm sure they won't offer arbitration unless he hits like he did last year for the rest of the season.

    I was probably a bit too harsh on your post. But I kind of view these things like stocks: it's easy to analyze what's already happened and what today's value is; but what really matters is predicting future value. Nobody is going to argue that he hasn't been a bad defender over his career or that he hasn't been a bad hitter this year or that his contract doesn't make his current value limited.

    The real questions that pertain to future value/performance are whether he's turned the corner this season after an awful april and may, is he on an improving trend defensively over his career, is there enough of a chance that a different approach/new set of coaches/change of scenery helps achieve previous success?
    Fair enough. At the same time, Minnesota wondered the same thing. Worked out poorly for them, too. I dont mind the trade, honestly. I just think he's highly overrated because he put up some nice counting stats last season.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth View Post
    For some reason this makes me feel better about some of the misgivings. Boesch seems to take his game seriously so maybe he'll bring out the best in his friend.
    Well that's an intriguing twist. I'm not sure if it's meaningful or not, but if it helps Young to feel comfortable with the Tigers, that's probably a good thing.
    The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves. - George Washington August 26, 1776.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat View Post
    Fair enough. At the same time, Minnesota wondered the same thing. Worked out poorly for them, too. I dont mind the trade, honestly. I just think he's highly overrated because he put up some nice counting stats last season.
    I think that Minn would rather get more information on Revere at this point than see if DY might find something the last month and a half of the season. Can't blame them really.

    Certainly he put up more RBIs than he should have last year, but he still had a wOBA of .352. Not near MVP worthy but it's about what Boesch is doing this year. And they're the same age.
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  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truman Show View Post
    Ooooohhhh boy.

    Everyone knows the tools, but you won't find anyone who gets less out of them. Maybe Lloyd can pull the 180 he did with Boesch? I don't know.

    Cole Nelson is nobody but you have to be worried when PTBs get involved for a guy like Young.
    Lloyd did a 180 on Boesch?

    How much of that was Lloyd, and how much of that was working out with Ryan Braun/playing fall ball?

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who is the Drizzle? View Post
    I think that Minn would rather get more information on Revere at this point than see if DY might find something the last month and a half of the season. Can't blame them really.

    Certainly he put up more RBIs than he should have last year, but he still had a wOBA of .352. Not near MVP worthy but it's about what Boesch is doing this year. And they're the same age.
    I'm not a Boesch lover by any means. I've made my position clear on that. As far as revere goes, I'm not seeing it.

  34. #234
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    did anybody hear Denard Span say that Delmon Young was as good as Miggy?

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    did anybody hear Denard Span say that Delmon Young was as good as Miggy?
    Yeah, he doesn't assess talent for a living, does he?

  36. #236
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    I was half hoping the Tigers would bring in another OF, was hoping for somebody like Logan Morrison, but Delmon might help out for the stretch run.
    Clearly Magglio is toast, so hopefully the outfield will be primarily Young, Jackson, and Boesch, with Dirks spelling Jackson against tough RHP.

    But I'm also tempted to think that Raburn could do just as well .......
    Last edited by DaYooperASBDT; 08-15-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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  37. #237
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    HA HA HA HA HA

    And batting third! HA!
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  38. #238
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    Well, he's an upgrade over Clete Thomas there, I guess.
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  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
    Yeah, he doesn't assess talent for a living, does he?
    I was thinking post-concussive...

  40. #240
    tigermojo is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROMAD1 View Post
    did anybody hear Denard Span say that Delmon Young was as good as Miggy?
    He meant at the buffet table.

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