Tigers Acquire Delmon Young

[tiger337]

Lol... your nuts!

I don't think we should be talking about his nuts.

[john doe]

No they wouldn't. Do you hear anyone talking about Magglio Ordonez upside?

+1 Yep! Some of the same posters that hated Peralta last year would still hate Delmon next year if he re-signs no matter what he does. Look back and see how many here were so happy to see Grandy gone because he had "peaked" or was "in decline".

[RobSk]

Also Rob, I forgot to comment on your last point:

Hits, extra-base power, walks, and the rate they are produced is not a product of context. Hence they are more indicative of the players value.

I don't totally agree with this point. There are players all over baseball and baseball history that were called "empty" players. Some suggest Adam Dunn is one of these. An "empty" player is one who is simply not clutch. The pressure of the moment or whatever clouds their talent. These players will get a hit with 2 out and his team trailing by 3 runs. This player will hit a 1 run home run when the game is already lost. This player will get his hits and walks when frankly, it just doesn't matter. Their statistics might look ok, but for some reason the manager always looks to replace this player in the lineup....

As far as I can tell, this is all a product of your imagination. I've never seen any numbers or actual facts that consistently back up the notion that a "clutch" player or an "empty" player exist. Give me 9 "empty" (guys you think are empty) players with .900+ OPS and you can have all the "clutch" (guys you think are clutch) .700 guys you want, and I'll win.

Rob

[tiger337]

+1 Yep! Some of the same posters that hated Peralta last year would still hate Delmon next year if he re-signs no matter what he does. Look back and see how many here were so happy to see Grandy gone because he had "peaked" or was "in decline".

The people that didn't like Peralta like him now. If Young improves as much as Peralta they'll like him too. If not, then they'll dislike him.

[The Truman Show]

One player I'm intrigued by is Lance Berkman. I wanted to sign him as a DH this past off season, but he might work as a corner OF. He has been playing corner OF for St Louis. I know people are going to yell defense, but he isn't worse than Ordonez and I'll take 30+ HR, 402 OBP, and 565 slugging ith poor defense. I've always liked Berkman and think he has been an underrated hitter his whole career.

Don't really think there's any chance the Cardinals let him go this offseason.

[Motor City Sonics]

The last Tiger to enter the game as a pinch runner and hit a walk off home run?


this is a tough one.......I am gonna say Mickey Stanley.....but Jose Macias comes to mind.

[RobSk]

Right, I understand... and you understand that someone like Adam Everett hardly ever batted someone in regardless if they were on base or not!!

Point is, Delmon at this point in his career seems to make opportunity hits. Meaning, he gets hits when they count. That is what you want in the meat of your order. Delmon can not be responsible if the #9, #1 or #2 hitter get on base. Plus as it was mentioned, with Cabby and VMart behind him, I would expect Delmon to get some good fastball pitches to hit.

In regards to his defense. Stellar? No... but do you guys remember trotting Raburn out in LF for so long? Have you guys forgotten? Where are all the sabr's now telling us all how statistics show Raburn as a plus defender? DY is certainly a better defender than Raburn. I think for DY's slightly below defense, but developing plus power, he is one to hold on to.

DY reminds me of a young Wille Horton.

DY is certainly NOT a better defender than Raburn. He's one of the worst corner OF defenders in baseball. Raburn is roughly average or a bit below as a corner OF. Note: I did not address his defense at 2b. He's horrible at 2b. Find me a quote where I ever said Raburn was a "plus" defender. It never happened.

The Willie Horton thing is just insane. I mean seriously. At 22 years old, Horton hit 29 homers, had an .831 OPS, and a 132 OPS+ (his OPS related to the leagues performance). He followed that up with: 125, 137, **165**, 117, 133, 133. At 22, DY had a .723 OPS, which was a 100 OPS+, followed by 91, 123, 84.

These are not the records of similar players at a similar age. They are the records of a very good hitter (Horton) and a guy that has been better than the league average performance (which includes SS and 2b and everyone) exactly once. (DY). Could DY magically become a guy that has a 165 OPS+? Sure. However, the chances of that happening are very, very slim. As far as I can tell, the similarities between these guys end at being heavy and having the same skin pigmentation.

Rob

[pyrotigers]

I didn't like Peralta then, and I do like him now. Because he's a good player now. Likewise, I liked Granderson when he was traded, because he was a good player. I don't like Delmon Young because he's a really bad player. I think I'm pretty consistent in players I like or don't like, I like guys who are good and play for the Tigers, I dislike players who are bad and play for the Tigers. As long as Delmon is bad, I will dislike him. I expect he'll be bad for the rest of his career, so I'm building up a lot of dislike.

[RobSk]

Ok, how about this instead.

Delmon Young doesn't walk, or hit for a high average, or hit for power, or play defense, or run the bases.

If you want a player like that, I'm available for the right price.

.295 .302 .426 .728 (or .270 .304 .369 adding his Minnesota numbers)

and that's prior to tonight's crappy game.

He just sucks

Whoops. I missed your sarcasm in your last post. My bad. :)

Rob

[RobSk]

Really? I think its a great market to exploit. We got Peralta and Young for virtually nothing. That's a great way to take cheap gambles on talent.

Also as far as Young's WAR, those defensive stats are highly subjective and whether they truly effect the game enough to cancel out a guy who can give you an .8-.850 OPS is debatable at best IMO. Especially if you can DH him vs. lefties. Its basically a cheaper Maggs repalcement

Wait, I'm sorry- Who is going to give us an 800-850 OPS? DY? I'd be happy if he could get back to the .730-.750 range.

Rob

[Nastradamus]

He was .826 last year, its not out of the question. I'm not necessarily predicting that, but more making the point that if he hits to his potential, I don't care what his dWAR says

[Cecil]

Wait, I'm sorry- Who is going to give us an 800-850 OPS? DY? I'd be happy if he could get back to the .730-.750 range.

Rob

Delmon Young has a 747 career OPS and has never been lower than 723 until this year.

[RobSk]

Delmon Young has a 747 career OPS and has never been lower than 723 until this year.

I'm sorry, could you explain what you were "correcting" here? I said "get back to the .730-.750 range." That VERY accurately describes his career until this year, when he has been consistently far below that number. Hence the "get back" part.

Rob

[RobSk]

He was .826 last year, its not out of the question. I'm not necessarily predicting that, but more making the point that if he hits to his potential, I don't care what his dWAR says

I didn't mention his "dWAR". However, while you're right, .826 isn't impossible, it seems unlikely given the rest of his career. OTOH, the thing that has been consistent is that the dude can't play the OF at a major league level. That does have an impact on his value, whether you care or not.

Rob

[pyrotigers]

I don't really care about defensive stats either, but just watching Delmon play it's pretty obvious he's horrifically bad. He lines up on the warning track because he's afraid of a ball being hit over his head and runs in slow motion. Even that said, I wouldn't care about that if he was more than an average at best hitter for his position, but he's not. Even last year his OBP was awful.

[STLTiger69]

Even that said, I wouldn't care about that if he was more than an average at best hitter for his position, but he's not. Even last year his OBP was awful.

For what it is worth;


Last year Young's OBP was ranked 86th out of 151 players that qualified. Some of the names ranked LOWER than Young by OBP include Brandon Phillips (87th) Denard Span (89th) Michael Young (90th), Chase Headley (98th) Hunter Pence (99th) Ryan Ludwick (100th), Curtis Granderson (103rd) B.J. Upton (107th) Matt Kemp (129th), and too make it official, Jose Lopez was in last place (151st) with a OBP of .270 in the group that included qualifiers.

Some of those players names ranked lower than Delmon Young based on OBP from last year sound familiar to anyone?

[STLTiger69]

Don't really think there's any chance the Cardinals let him go this offseason.

Cecil; "One player I'm intrigued by is Lance Berkman."

I'm sort of up on the Lance Berkman situation via residency (St. Louis, MO). Truman's call is on target. To sum up the chatter here in St. Louis, Berkman has basically hinted that he wants to return to the Cardinals or he would seriously consider retiring (he virtually said a return to the Astro's is out of the question and he would NOT want to be traded to the Texas Rangers either). Berkman's experiance in the American League with the Yankees was not a pleasant memory for him and it seems he really is not interested at all in playing for any AL team. The Cardinals GM has also hinted that the Cardinals are interested in bringing Berkman back and that a deal can be done.

From the Cardinals perspective, Lance Berkman and Matt Holiday make pretty good middle of the order bats and even if Pujol's leaves that frees up $20-$30 million to go find another bat and some other pieces the Cardinals really need for 2012 (like a freek'n reliever!!!).

[84 Lives!!!]

Delmon Young = a cross between Craig Monroe & Marcus Thames?

[pyrotigers]

For what it is worth;


Last year Young's OBP was ranked 86th out of 151 players that qualified. Some of the names ranked LOWER than Young by OBP include Brandon Phillips (87th) Denard Span (89th) Michael Young (90th), Chase Headley (98th) Hunter Pence (99th) Ryan Ludwick (100th), Curtis Granderson (103rd) B.J. Upton (107th) Matt Kemp (129th), and too make it official, Jose Lopez was in last place (151st) with a OBP of .270 in the group that included qualifiers.

Some of those players names ranked lower than Delmon Young based on OBP from last year sound familiar to anyone?

They sound like guys who were really bad at getting on base last year

[tiger337]

Delmon Young = a cross between Craig Monroe & Marcus Thames?

yes, but not until Rod Allen starts chatting with Young before every game.

[The Truman Show]

Really? I think its a great market to exploit. We got Peralta and Young for virtually nothing. That's a great way to take cheap gambles on talent.

I'm talking about the extensions. I don't care about the trades because they're just minor deals and even if you hate Delmon Young there's nothing bad about the trade. Peralta costs 13 mil over two years. That's a bargain because he got awesome, but 6 mil a year is not chump change, and if Delmon Young is coming back, he's making 6 mil per year at a minimum.

I'll try again: it is not a good idea to just hand out multiyear, 6 mil per year extensions to bad players just because Peralta got suddenly and unexpectedly better when he got one.

[Sawyer30]

For what it is worth;


Last year Young's OBP was ranked 86th out of 151 players that qualified. Some of the names ranked LOWER than Young by OBP include Brandon Phillips (87th) Denard Span (89th) Michael Young (90th), Chase Headley (98th) Hunter Pence (99th) Ryan Ludwick (100th), Curtis Granderson (103rd) B.J. Upton (107th) Matt Kemp (129th), and too make it official, Jose Lopez was in last place (151st) with a OBP of .270 in the group that included qualifiers.

Some of those players names ranked lower than Delmon Young based on OBP from last year sound familiar to anyone?

Great defender at a much more difficult position to find talent, and provides far more consistent power than Delmon; far better defender at a more premium position and has consistently gotten on base more than Young throughout his career; always has been pretty damn overrated anyways, but had a down year and has bounced back; just now coming into his own, far better defender at a more difficult position in third; overrated/down year/bounce back this year; he had one good year and played in hell park last year; hit for considerably more power and played better defense at a tougher position; excellent defender at center and has never been an on base guy anyways, still has way more value than Delmon.

The basic point here is that all of the guys either had down years or have considerably better defensive reputations than Delmon in comparison to his CAREER year. A platoon of Raburn/Dirks right now would be far more successful than Delmon Young would be, but that kind of thinking is beyond too many people in this organization.

[Cecil]

I'm talking about the extensions. I don't care about the trades because they're just minor deals and even if you hate Delmon Young there's nothing bad about the trade. Peralta costs 13 mil over two years. That's a bargain because he got awesome, but 6 mil a year is not chump change, and if Delmon Young is coming back, he's making 6 mil per year at a minimum.

I'll try again: it is not a good idea to just hand out multiyear, 6 mil per year extensions to bad players just because Peralta got suddenly and unexpectedly better when he got one.

Not really sure anyone said Young should be given an extension because of Peralta. The free agent crop of OF is not good. Kubel is a good choice but outside of Kubel you have the likes of Beltran, Swisher, Fukudome who may be improvements.

[The Truman Show]

Not really sure anyone said Young should be given an extension because of Peralta.

Then why did you bring up Peralta when I was talking about Young's extension?

[Cecil]

Then why did you bring up Peralta when I was talking about Young's extension?

You were talking about Young's upside and I pointed out it's premature to say he has no upside and pointed to examples like Peralta and Guillen. Dombrowski has an eye for finding cast offs who turn into good players. Sometimes they work like Peralta, Guillen, Polanco, Edwin Jackson, and sometimes they don't like Brad Penny.

[Nastradamus]

I didn't mention his "dWAR". However, while you're right, .826 isn't impossible, it seems unlikely given the rest of his career. OTOH, the thing that has been consistent is that the dude can't play the OF at a major league level. That does have an impact on his value, whether you care or not.

Rob

I basically agree with everything you say here basically. I just think if he does post such an OPS, even with his bad D I still think he's be a solid starting OF for us. Maybe a little more so than his WAR suggests. I'm not sure how likely that is either though and honestly don't really mind if we non tender him.

[Nastradamus]

I'm talking about the extensions. I don't care about the trades because they're just minor deals and even if you hate Delmon Young there's nothing bad about the trade. Peralta costs 13 mil over two years. That's a bargain because he got awesome, but 6 mil a year is not chump change, and if Delmon Young is coming back, he's making 6 mil per year at a minimum.

I'll try again: it is not a good idea to just hand out multiyear, 6 mil per year extensions to bad players just because Peralta got suddenly and unexpectedly better when he got one.

Ok, I wouldn't extend Delmon or anything.

[pyrotigers]

I don't understand why their have to be good free agent options to not want Young back. You don't need to be a good player to be better than a .700-.750 OPS guy with horrible defense. They could always just trade for some other team's 4th or 5th outfielder and get that kind of production. I would hope that unless Young plays great down the stretch he won't be back at any price.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Great defender at a much more difficult position to find talent, and provides far more consistent power than Delmon; far better defender at a more premium position and has consistently gotten on base more than Young throughout his career; always has been pretty damn overrated anyways, but had a down year and has bounced back; just now coming into his own, far better defender at a more difficult position in third; overrated/down year/bounce back this year; he had one good year and played in hell park last year; hit for considerably more power and played better defense at a tougher position; excellent defender at center and has never been an on base guy anyways, still has way more value than Delmon.

The basic point here is that all of the guys either had down years or have considerably better defensive reputations than Delmon in comparison to his CAREER year. A platoon of Raburn/Dirks right now would be far more successful than Delmon Young would be, but that kind of thinking is beyond too many people in this organization.

We still have another month to get data on Young. I certainly would not be comfortable with a Raburn/Dirks platoon in 2012. Raburn is too inconsistent to count on and Dirks strikes me as a guy who would get exposed over a full season at this stage in his career. I think getting a RH OF is almost necessary, it gives you a lot of flexibility at 2B/LF/RF to platoon game to game and substitute offense/defense late with Raburn/Santiago/Dirks/Boesch/[RH OF].

Whether that addition is Young or someone else, whatever. I'd be far more comfortable with DY at 1 yr $3M, which I think is fair value, but I'm not going to scream if it's $6M.

[Cecil]

I don't understand why their have to be good free agent options to not want Young back. You don't need to be a good player to be better than a .700-.750 OPS guy with horrible defense. They could always just trade for some other team's 4th or 5th outfielder and get that kind of production. I would hope that unless Young plays great down the stretch he won't be back at any price.

You would think it would be that easy but when was the last time we got that consistent production out of LF? We've ran Raburn, Boesch, Guillen, Jones, Monroe, Thames etc. All 4th or 5th OF that couldn't get it done in LF. Not sure what you get via trade or free agency is going to be better.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

I don't understand why their have to be good free agent options to not want Young back. You don't need to be a good player to be better than a .700-.750 OPS guy with horrible defense. They could always just trade for some other team's 4th or 5th outfielder and get that kind of production. I would hope that unless Young plays great down the stretch he won't be back at any price.

Jacques Jones, Craig Monroe, Marcus Thames.....even Joyce and Boesch and Raburn had truly team-killing performances for several months. I don't think getting a guy with that OPS also making enough defensive plays to be worthwhile is easy. You seem to be describing a guy like David DeJesus, who isn't really that easy or cheap to acquire.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Jacques Jones, Craig Monroe, Marcus Thames.....even Joyce and Boesch and Raburn had truly team-killing performances for several months. I don't think getting a guy with that OPS also making enough defensive plays to be worthwhile is easy. You seem to be describing a guy like David DeJesus, who isn't really that easy or cheap to acquire.

David DeJesus=Andy Dirks.

[pyrotigers]

You would think it would be that easy but when was the last time we got that consistent production out of LF? We've ran Raburn, Boesch, Guillen, Jones, Monroe, Thames etc. All 4th or 5th OF that couldn't get it done in LF. Not sure what you get via trade or free agency is going to be better.

Most of those guys have been better than Young though, or if they weren't they were released pretty quickly

edit: Currently 54 outfielders in MLB with a .730+ OPS and 300+ PAs for the season. I'd guess that 54 of them or so are also better than Young defensively.

For that matter, out of the 96 outfielders who fit the 300+ PAs description, Delmon Young is currently a solid 82nd in OBP.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Not really sure anyone said Young should be given an extension because of Peralta. The free agent crop of OF is not good. Kubel is a good choice but outside of Kubel you have the likes of Beltran, Swisher, Fukudome who may be improvements.

Kubel isn't much better than the guys we currently have.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

David DeJesus=Andy Dirks.

Andy Dirks hopes so. Not a bet I'd take.

[Cecil]

Kubel isn't much better than the guys we currently have.

Really? Take him outside of Target Field and he has decent power. His 824 road OPS is better than any OF we have. Before moving into Target Field he was demonstrating pretty decent power. He's the best there is going to be available in free agency.

[alwaysthrowheat]

Andy Dirks hopes so. Not a bet I'd take.

Dirks has a .712 OPS so far with a .273 BABIP and a .154 ISO
Dejesus has a .780 OPS with a .317 BABIP and a .139 ISO

If Dirks' babip goes up to .300 or so, they'll have almost identical numbers.

They're both "scrappy" type players, who are good fielders, left handed, hit for a little power, and don't strike out much.

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Most of those guys have been better than Young though, or if they weren't they were released pretty quickly

edit: Currently 54 outfielders in MLB with a .730+ OPS and 300+ PAs for the season. I'd guess that 54 of them or so are also better than Young defensively.

For that matter, out of the 96 outfielders who fit the 300+ PAs description, Delmon Young is currently a solid 82nd in OBP.

He did have a really really slow start, possibly due to injury, and OBP was never his strength. His key will be his ISO, that was his big key in 2010 more than BABIP or anything.

Maybe he should pull a Granderson and get his eyes checked, help him track the pitches and the batted balls better.

[itsallgood8989]

As far as I can tell, this is all a product of your imagination. I've never seen any numbers or actual facts that consistently back up the notion that a "clutch" player or an "empty" player exist. Give me 9 "empty" (guys you think are empty) players with .900+ OPS and you can have all the "clutch" (guys you think are clutch) .700 guys you want, and I'll win.

Rob

How about I give you one cluth player off the top of my head... don't have time to research right now and not entirly sure I want to do the research... Delmon Young... 11 RBI's in 14 games... that would be a productive player or a "non empty" player....

[alwaysthrowheat]

Really? Take him outside of Target Field and he has decent power. His 824 road OPS is better than any OF we have. Before moving into Target Field he was demonstrating pretty decent power. He's the best there is going to be available in free agency.

I'd rather take Dirks/Raburn. Kubel is an atrocious fielder. One of the worst in the league. -42 runs in his career. That negates his near .800 OPS. If you platoon Dirks/Raburn, you're going to get close to .800 with at least average D.