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  1. #41
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    Benoit last night:

    Ground ball single
    Ground ball single
    Ground ball double
    Fly ball out
    Fly ball out
    Ground ball single to Avila(!)
    pop out

    Now, I'll admit I didn't see these, I was following on gameday. Seems like a lot of bad luck.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Benoit last night:

    Ground ball single
    Ground ball single
    Ground ball double
    Fly ball out
    Fly ball out
    Ground ball single to Avila(!)
    pop out

    Now, I'll admit I didn't see these, I was following on gameday. Seems like a lot of bad luck.
    A couple of the ground balls were hit hard. He wasn't fooling batters.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Benoit last night:

    Ground ball single
    Ground ball single
    Ground ball double
    Fly ball out
    Fly ball out
    Ground ball single to Avila(!)
    pop out

    Now, I'll admit I didn't see these, I was following on gameday. Seems like a lot of bad luck.
    The first ground ball single was bad luck for Benoit, right in the hole. The second one was hit hard on a line that first hit the ground on the infield dirt. It would have been bad luck for the hitter if it had been caught. The same is true for the "ground ball double." It hit the dirt on a line right near the third base bag.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Benoit last night:

    Ground ball single
    Ground ball single
    Ground ball double
    Fly ball out
    Fly ball out
    Ground ball single to Avila(!)
    pop out

    Now, I'll admit I didn't see these, I was following on gameday. Seems like a lot of bad luck.
    The last two groundballs were crushed, the flyballs were deep. He was throwing 90-93 mph fastballs up and over the heart of the plate. His splitter still mostly sucks.
    Kobernoooooous

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Benoit last night:

    Ground ball single
    Ground ball single
    Ground ball double
    Fly ball out
    Fly ball out
    Ground ball single to Avila(!)
    pop out

    Now, I'll admit I didn't see these, I was following on gameday. Seems like a lot of bad luck.
    He had no FB command. In his 1st ten pitches to three batters that led to the 1st run, he threw 5 FBs, three missed the zone, the two that didn't were both high and were hit hard by Encarnacion and Hill. Bautista leading off had hit a breaking ball after Benoit missed twice with the FB. At that point I think JL should have decided he'd seen enough.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 05-17-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    ... Josh Lueke?
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    Interestingly, no political immunity for the IMF, so I guess he is going to have to face charges in New York.
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  7. #47
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    I wouldn't be surprised if Benoit pitches another 40+ innings this year without giving up another run. That might be stretching it but I think he will be very good the rest of the season and we'll all be very satisfied.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by apabruce View Post
    The first ground ball single was bad luck for Benoit, right in the hole. The second one was hit hard on a line that first hit the ground on the infield dirt. It would have been bad luck for the hitter if it had been caught. The same is true for the "ground ball double." It hit the dirt on a line right near the third base bag.
    Alright. Thanks. So he gave up two hard hit balls out of seven? Regardless, I'll defer to you guys. Even so, a few bad outings bunched together is not necessarily a big deal. I think it's way too early to bury the guy. As his first 10 appearances show, he can still be quite good.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Alright. Thanks. So he gave up two hard hit balls out of seven? Regardless, I'll defer to you guys. Even so, a few bad outings bunched together is not necessarily a big deal. I think it's way too early to bury the guy. As his first 10 appearances show, he can still be quite good.
    How many games does he have to lose before its a big deal?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    How many games does he have to lose before its a big deal?
    How many games do you expect a good reliever to lose in a season?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagnam View Post
    How many games do you expect a good reliever to lose in a season?
    Seems to me youre suggesting that Benoit will be just fine as well.

  12. #52
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    Even Beck is now wondering what's up. Interesting comparison to Brandon Lyon, although we probably expected that Benoit was going to be the better acquisition.

    For convenience sake, since this is a long piece, I put Benoit's quotes in blue bold, Leyland's quotes in black bold and Knapp's quotes in red bold. (The usual MTS practice of using color to indicate sarcasm is not in effect here.)

    What is going on with Benoit? Beck's Blog

    Before we get into dissecting Joaquin Benoit, let’s make something clear: Anyone who expected Benoit to duplicate his 2010 numbers from Tampa Bay was kidding themselves. When we point out that Benoit already has given up four more earned runs than he did all of last year, it’s almost more for entertainment purposes, because those numbers were ridiculously good. The fact that he’s now more than two-thirds of the way to his 2010 hit total in about a quarter of the innings is more concerning, because it’s more relevant, but that’s a little deceptive, too.

    Also worth noting: Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, was a Brandon Lyon fan at this point in 2009. He had allowed 12 earned runs on 16 hits over 15 2/3 innings then, including 11 walks. He gave up just 40 hits over 63 innings with 20 walks and 52 strikeouts after that, and then was paid handsomely on the open market.

    Got it? Good. Now, what the heck is going on with Benoit?

    “If I would know that, I would give you an answer,” Benoit said. “I’m trying to figure it out.”

    To Benoit’s credit, he stood in front of TV cameras and microphones and answered all the questions asked of him, which lasted a little more than three minutes. He didn’t have a whole lot of answers, but he tried.

    “I’m probably giving the hitters more credit than what they deserve,” Benoit said later. “I’m probably throwing the pitch that they’re looking for, and in their location. There’s not much I can do when that happens. It’s wrong pitch selection.”

    Manager Jim Leyland and pitching coach Rick Knapp have a little different take. To Knapp, pitch selection and pitch execution are pretty good. Pitch location is not.

    “I can’t figure out what’s going on,” Leyland said, “because we don’t see anything that indicates something wrong, with the exception that he’s just [not] locating the ball. He’s just not getting the ball where he’s trying to throw it, it looks like to me. The velocity is certainly OK, but it looks to me like he’s not locating the ball where he’s trying to get it for some reason. That means you’re out of sync or something, and he has been for a few times out now.”

    Benoit agreed that his health is fine.

    “I mean, I’m pitching,” Benoit said. “I have my velocity. Things are not going right.”

    He does not have his location, for whatever reason. Or at least, he has it inconsistently. The game-turning double from Aaron Hill came in a five-pitch at-bat that started off with two nasty pitches to put Hill in an 0-2 hole. He pitched to catcher Alex Avila’s mitt on the next two pitches, but Hill didn’t chase.

    The last pitch, the 2-2 pitch, was supposed to be low and away. It was up and over the plate.

    “He made four pitches to Hill that were good,” pitching coach Rick Knapp said. “The fifth one’s bad. He just missed the spot.”

    Knapp has his own ideas why.

    “Is it mechanics? I don’t think it’s mechanics,” Knapp said. “I think it’s just confidence. Throw the ball down isn’t really something you can think about. You have to leverage it that way. You have to know that you’re going to throw the ball down and not have to think about it. When you have to think about it, then you have a better chance to make a mistake. And that’s kind of about where he’s at right now. He’s trying to execute pitches maybe too hard and he’s not.”

    Both Knapp and Benoit said they felt his previous outing last week at Minnesota was a big step forward. He gave up three hits over 1 1/3 innings and a game-tying run that was unearned thanks to a double-error play, but he also kept the Twins from pulling ahead with help from two eighth-inning strikeouts.

    When he’s on, he’s a swing-and-miss pitcher more than a contact pitcher.

    “It was really better in Minnesota,” Benoit said.

    Knapp believed the Minnesota outing was something to build on.

    “I think Minnesota was a good positive stepping point,” Knapp said. “It just didn’t work out for him tonight. He’ll get more opportunities. It’s one of those deals where you have to execute to get confidence. Confidence isn’t something that you’re going to just show up with. It isn’t something that just walks through the door. You have your swagger, but I think right now he’s a little bit in his own head.”

    Just about everyone was asked whether the three-year, $16.5 million contract, and the pressure to pitch up to it, could be contributing to that.

    “I’ll answer that by saying I don’t know the answer to that,” Leyland said. “Something’s not right. He’s obviously a little frustrated, trying to do too much. That’s a possibility. That’s something we’ll have to look at it. He’s an important piece of the puzzle, but we’re going to have to look at it and figure something out. I’ll have to figure out the strategic part.”

    Benoit had that question posed as well.

    “There’s always pressure when you’re pitching and you don’t perform to the level that everybody expected,” he said.


    Said Knapp: “I don’t know that he’d be out there in those situations if he didn’t perform like he did the year before. He deserves what he got [contractually]. Like I said, we need him to be good — not great, just good.

    “I know it isn’t because he’s not trying. He’s digging in. He’s looking at tape. He’s trying to feel it, trying to make sure. There’s a fine line between trying to do too much and maybe his stuff dropping off. I don’t think it’s a stuff issue. I think his stuff is fine. I think now we have to get him zeroed in on hitting the glove, staying on the spot, executing the pitch he’s trying to make.

    “I think everybody wants him to perform, nobody moreso than him. Like I said, I don’t see the stuff falling off. I see him missing his spots, which means we’re getting closer to where we need to be.”
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    We'll find out in August that he's been hurt since March.
    This is what I've been wondering as well, whether this is the case and if so, how long he's planning on ********ting the team about it.

    Anyone who thinks players are self-satisfied with the money and don't care should take note of this. If all they cared about was the money, most players would whine their way onto the DL at the first opportunity. Instead, we routinely see players play hurt even to the detriment of the team, and even when they have big contracts -- because they're warriors. They live primarily for the fight, not for the paycheck.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Seems to me youre suggesting that Benoit will be just fine as well.
    He is?

    Anyway, I was thinking confidence and getting into his own head might be his biggest problem(s) now. Sounds like Knapp might think so too.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    He is?
    I think so. Otherwise he wouldnt have asked that question if he didnt think things would even out.

    This is how Leyland operates though, always slow to identify the problem, and when identified, slow to make the necessary change.

  16. #56
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    I thought about Lyon too. Difference is we were able to turn him into draft picks.
    .

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I think so. Otherwise he wouldnt have asked that question if he didnt think things would even out.

    This is how Leyland operates though, always slow to identify the problem, and when identified, slow to make the necessary change.
    I didn't really get that from his comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    Alright. Thanks. So he gave up two hard hit balls out of seven? Regardless, I'll defer to you guys. Even so, a few bad outings bunched together is not necessarily a big deal. I think it's way too early to bury the guy. As his first 10 appearances show, he can still be quite good.
    Benoit needs to be shut down immediately and sent to Toledo for matainence. We have guys on our roster who can step up and fill his role, and if need be, we can always bring up Oliveros.

    Benoit should not be used in any meaningful situations again until he has better command of his pitches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Benoit needs to be shut down immediately and sent to Toledo for matainence. We have guys on our roster who can step up and fill his role, and if need be, we can always bring up Oliveros.

    Benoit should not be used in any meaningful situations again until he has better command of his pitches.
    That doesn't seem likely.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    I didn't really get that from his comment.
    Not surprising really.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    That doesn't seem likely.
    And why not?

  22. #62
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    The Lyon comparison is precisely what I'm getting at. These bad outings are being magnified because it is still early. He's had a rough couple weeks, but he did have a couple nice outings in the middle there. And his start to the season was excellent.

    I don't think he's injured.
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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Not surprising really.
    I read his comment differently. You don't have to be condescending about it.
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  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    And why not?
    For one, the money he's being paid and the fact he's a vet. I think they're more likely to give him leeway than they would a younger player.

    If they tried to option him to Toledo, could he reject the assignment? If that's a factor, that's another reason why they might not try it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Seems to me youre suggesting that Benoit will be just fine as well.
    I don't know. The point is that all relievers lose games. Maybe he has already lost all his for the year. Maybe not.

    You asked how many before it's a big deal. My answer was when he loses as many as you expect him to lose for the year. Everything after that becomes a bigger deal.
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    According to BABIP, Schlereth is the guy we should be worried about. He has been very "lucky" while Benoit has been very "unlucky". Things tend to even out eventually in baseball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    For one, the money he's being paid and the fact he's a vet. I think they're more likely to give him leeway than they would a younger player.

    If they tried to option him to Toledo, could he reject the assignment? If that's a factor, that's another reason why they might not try it.
    We're paying Maggs a lot of money too . . .

    Somewhere, somehow, common sense must prevail in the pen. Benoit needs a few several low-pressure situations to prove himself in before he's thrown into another hold situation. Losing games like that is just a killer to a baseball team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    We're paying Maggs a lot of money too . . .

    Somewhere, somehow, common sense must prevail in the pen. Benoit needs a few several low-pressure situations to prove himself in before he's thrown into another hold situation. Losing games like that is just a killer to a baseball team.
    Yeah, but they didn't send Maggs to Toledo, they put him on the DL for ankle weakness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    Yeah, but they didn't send Maggs to Toledo, they put him on the DL for ankle weakness.
    You don't send batting champs down to the minors--especially when it is obvious they are playing hurt.

    Benoit has had one great year, and is hardly THAT caliber of player. He certainly isn't untouchable to the point where you can't pull the plug on him until he gets command of his pitches again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    You don't send batting champs down to the minors--especially when it is obvious they are playing hurt.

    Benoit has had one great year, and is hardly THAT caliber of player. He certainly isn't untouchable to the point where you can't pull the plug on him until he gets command of his pitches again.
    He's still a highly paid veteran who may have a say in whether or not he gets sent to the minors, is my point. I don't understand why you'd compare his situation to Maggs'. They're different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    He's still a highly paid veteran who may have a say in whether or not he gets sent to the minors, is my point. I don't understand why you'd compare his situation to Maggs'. They're different.
    Sure they are different, but the brain trust needs to grow a pair and have Benoit's arm evaluated. Then, they need to have his cabesa evaluated.

    Bottom line: He's not right, and he's costing us baseball games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelton View Post
    The Lyon comparison is precisely what I'm getting at. These bad outings are being magnified because it is still early. He's had a rough couple weeks, but he did have a couple nice outings in the middle there. And his start to the season was excellent.

    I don't think he's injured.
    I think JL's and Knapp's comments were glossed for public consumption. I don't think he threw any of the FBs where he wanted to - but be that as it may - I have no illusions that every pitcher not named Rivera is going to be 'on' every time he goes out. Benoit's performance didn't bother me. I have no idea if he will snap out of it, but on the other hand, I have no reason to doubt it either. I don't even think you necessarily have to save him for only low leverage situations at this point - just do what you should do whenever you send a reliever out there - be prepared to replace him if he's not looking sharp before he digs too big a hole - 3 runs was too many to allow him to give up last night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Sure they are different, but the brain trust needs to grow a pair and have Benoit's arm evaluated. Then, they need to have his cabesa evaluated.

    Bottom line: He's not right, and he's costing us baseball games.
    The only thing I agree with here is that he's not right.
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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeyb105 View Post
    Sure they are different, but the brain trust needs to grow a pair and have Benoit's arm evaluated. Then, they need to have his cabesa evaluated.

    Bottom line: He's not right, and he's costing us baseball games.
    a) Why did you compare Ordonez to Benoit if they are different?

    b) Why must he be at AAA to have his arm evaluated? If he is hurt, he should be on the DL, not pitching in Toledo.

  35. #75
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    Maybe it's something mechanical? I'm noticing a lot of pitches high in the zone - those can be quite whackable.
    No need to panic, anyone who expected a repeat of 2010 is smokin dope, sorry.
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  36. #76
    ballmich is offline MotownSports Fan
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    I'm sure Benoit will straighten it out eventually, if healthy. Though I think most fan's expectations, even if tempered from 2010 results, are still likely too high.

    In the meantime, we need a back of the bulllpen arm. How long until Oliveros is up? I suspect it could be very soon.
    Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    I'm sure Benoit will straighten it out eventually, if healthy. Though I think most fan's expectations, even if tempered from 2010 results, are still likely too high.
    I wasn't expecting last year's numbers, but I also wasn't expecting this. I think you're right, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    In the meantime, we need a back of the bulllpen arm. How long until Oliveros is up? I suspect it could be very soon.
    Who goes away for Oliveros? THOMAS? Please say Thomas.
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  38. #78
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    Five scoreless innings for Oliveros in Toledo so far after getting promoted from Erie.

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  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by catswithbats View Post
    Who goes away for Oliveros? THOMAS? Please say Thomas.
    Perhaps someone makes a trip to the DL.
    Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Perhaps someone makes a trip to the DL.
    We'll never be rid of Thomas.
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