Damon Wants to be a Detroit Tiger

[ballmich]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

[/B]

Huh?? bmich..you cant say we don't know and we do know, in the same sentence..

One is fact, one is opinion..

I'm glad that's not what I said then.

I said I don't know, however, this is what I think is reasonable.

If you want to question why I think something is reasonable, that's fine and I'd probably have a response for you, but trying to twist my words (and doing a poor job of it) doesn't get you anywhere.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by ballmich

I'm glad that's not what I said then.

I said I don't know, however, this is what I think is reasonable.

If you want to question why I think something is reasonable, that's fine and I'd probably have a response for you, but trying to twist my words (and doing a poor job of it) doesn't get you anywhere.

bmich..we dont know..believe me we dont know..and why would they tell us...

Now you can say..you think they overpaid and you dont believe anyone else was offering near that type offer.

lighten up..we all say this stuff..

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by ballmich

There's a difference between calling what his salary will be and paying Valverde a fair value.

To be honest, I don't see the difference. I called his salary b/c that is what relievers like him get on a year-in, year-out basis. Hence, he got fair value b/c he got what the going rate is for closers. Look at the salaries for relievers in FA the last couple years and look where Valverde's deal falls in at. If we overpaid for him, then a lot of other GM's are overpaying for relievers in virtually every single signing.

[LostInACoinToss23]

Let's not forget we're talking about the AL (Comedy) Central here, where even guys like Carl Pavano and Jim Thome can still make a difference.

Sign 'em. Keep doing this tango, get your best deal, but in the end.. sign 'em.

[Titus Tiger]

Originally Posted by LostInACoinToss23

Let's not forget we're talking about the AL (Comedy) Central here, where even guys like Carl Pavano and Jim Thome can still make a difference.

Sign 'em. Keep doing this tango, get your best deal, but in the end.. sign 'em.

but we want a team made for post season

not post haste

[Who is the Drizzle?]

Originally Posted by ballmich

That's not true in the least. Talk about over simplification.

First, you've omitted the loss of the 1st round draft pick attached to Valverde.

Second, you've omitted the fact that Rodney signed about a month before Valverde, which is a significant factor given that most free payroll dollars dried up during that period.

Market value is determined by what the market will bear, not by what others received. If you exclude the Tiger's offer to Valverde, what was the next best offer? Something between that offer and the Tiger's offer was what his market value was on the date he was signed. His value may have been higher (and probably was) earlier in the offseason. But either by his or his agent's decision, they turned down arbitration and waited... probably to his detriment.

OK, first, you can't count the cost of the draft pick for the Tigers and then not count it for the 'market.' Anybody that would have signed him would have lost a draft pick, and that of course figured in their valuing.

Second, by your logic, any FA signing is over market value, unless a guy is taking the 2nd best offer for some reason.

Thirdly, Valverde signed for $8M in arbitration last year. Street and Jenks and Soriano all got similar deals this year. Street and Soriano required players/prospects to acquire, and Valverde was better than Jenks. So I don't see why you wouldn't use actual players and contracts for a market comparison, instead of what you think his offers were.

[itsallgood8989]

Just an updated opinion from a Tampa Bay Newspaper.... Check out rumblings towards the bottom....

Comeback for Pat Burrell may be key to Tampa Bay Rays' season - St. Petersburg Times

[DaYooperASBDT]

Morosi and Rosenthal's latest, perhaps the Tigers are kicking the tires a bit?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...n-damon-020510

Here's a Morosi article from earlier in the week. I sure miss having Jon in Detroit:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/S...y-Damon-020210

[Vonlenska]

Please sign Damon. They would finally have a leadoff hitter.

[tiger337]

They could have Raburn or Guillen leadoff. What they really need is a left-handed hitter and signing Damon would address that. Right now they have a severe lefty/righty imbalance that other teams will exploit any chance they get.

[Vonlenska]

Guillen can't run, will get hurt, and who knows what Raburn's going to do.

If the Tigers want to compete this year, adding an established left handed, leadoff hitter would only help them.

I'm particularly tired of the Tigers' "home remedy" attitude when it comes to their lineup. Do you really think we can count on Guillen for even 120 games? Especially in LF? We all know he'll play in LF for 5-10 games and that will be it.

Damon may not be quite what he once was but sadly, the Tigers need him, and he needs the Tigers.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Guillen is no burner, but he can swipe a few bags - and more importantly has an excellent OBP. I feel most fans overrate the impact of the stolen base.

Earl Weaver had it right, the best strategy in baseball is the 3-run homer, and you can't get those unless you have guys on base. Sure that's the case anywhere in the batting order, but having a good OBP guy batting ahead of Cabrera, Ordonez, etc. certainly can't hurt!

I've never understood batting Guillen behind Cabrera - makes zero sense to me.

[Vonlenska]

I'd definitely hit Guillen 1st (without Damon) or 2nd (with him) I know he has a good OBP and is a smart player, but I just can't get too into that thought because of how likely it is that he'll be on the DL at least once.

[Mark The Shark]

Why not bat Magglio leadoff? Sure, he's about as moblie as the staute of Ty Cobb, but he gets on base at a pretty good rate. Even when he was terrible in the first half, his OBP was still better than Granderson.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

I'd definitely hit Guillen 1st (without Damon) or 2nd (with him) I know he has a good OBP and is a smart player, but I just can't get too into that thought because of how likely it is that he'll be on the DL at least once.

True dat. I'm more worried about his shoulder than the legs - but as we know he's had issues with the wheels in the past also. I think a leg injury could happen at any spot in the lineup though.

I'd like to see this lineup, come opening day:

Damon
Sizemore
Guillen/Raburn
Cabrera
Ordonez
B. Inge
whoever
whoever
whoever

I've been told that "whoever" works for cheap, so what the heck.
Without Damon, I think the best lineup would be:

Guillen
Sizemore
Ordonez
Cabrera
Raburn
B. Inge
etc.

[irishmick79]

I'd really wonder about Detroit's decision making if they go into 2010 thinking that Guillen is going to be a near every-day contributor. Honestly I think they will be lucky if they get 120 good games out of him. I see him playing decently for about 90-100 games, and maybe play another 15-20 games fighting through some sort of injury, be it a sore shoulder, bum hammy, whatever. But yeah, I would be shocked if he doesn't miss at least a month's worth of time due to various injuries.

[Titus Tiger]

Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT

Morosi and Rosenthal's latest, perhaps the Tigers are kicking the tires a bit?
Sources say Tigers and Braves interested in Johnny Damon - MLB News - FOX Sports on MSN

Here's a Morosi article from earlier in the week. I sure miss having Jon in Detroit:
Morosi: Damon to Detroit is a possibility - MLB News - FOX Sports on MSN

what is interesting --- in both artickes there is no sources cited, as IF all the information about calls to Illich, and the Tigers pursuing Damon is so common, you don't even need to cite it.

Yet, it is not

which

makes this article more real
Benke Wants to be a Detroit Tiger

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by tiger337

They could have Raburn or Guillen leadoff. What they really need is a left-handed hitter and signing Damon would address that. Right now they have a severe lefty/righty imbalance that other teams will exploit any chance they get.

Are you in favor of signing Damon?

[ToledoTigerFan]

I wish Damon would sign somewhere so the chatter about him would cease. I wouldn't mind having him on a one-year rental, but, at some point, the Tigers need to start having some faith in young players.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

I wish Damon would sign somewhere so the chatter about him would cease. I wouldn't mind having him on a one-year rental, but, at some point, the Tigers need to start having some faith in young players.

TTF they're starting 2 and will likely add Avila to that mix..I think they are doing exactly what you're asking.

[JonBenke]

I think if the Tigers were even considering a multi-year deal, he'd already be signed. I am guessing they want a one year deal, and Damon is waiting it out, and waiting...

I am sure, the closer spring training comes, with no one wanting Damon, he'll sign a very nice one year deal with Detroit.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Are you in favor of signing Damon?

Depending on the contract probably yes. I think they have a chance to win the division and I'd like to see them correct the line-up imbalance. I was against it about a month ago, but now that Illitch has shown he's still willing to support a massive payroll, I say go for it.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

Guillen can't run, will get hurt, and who knows what Raburn's going to do.

If the Tigers want to compete this year, adding an established left handed, leadoff hitter would only help them.

I'm particularly tired of the Tigers' "home remedy" attitude when it comes to their lineup. Do you really think we can count on Guillen for even 120 games? Especially in LF? We all know he'll play in LF for 5-10 games and that will be it.

Damon may not be quite what he once was but sadly, the Tigers need him, and he needs the Tigers.

I think they need Guillen to be reasonably healthy and Raburn to be productive in order to compete this year. On top of that they still need another hitter. Just picking up Damon and not having others come through won't be enough. If Guillen is going to be hurt and Raburn doesn't do much as you suggest, then I don't think getting Damon will matter.

[EppOnite]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

I wish Damon would sign somewhere so the chatter about him would cease. I wouldn't mind having him on a one-year rental, but, at some point, the Tigers need to start having some faith in young players.

Not to just pick on your statement because I've herd so many similar remarks to this, but other than this year (with Sizemore, Jackson and Avila getting a chance), which young players have the Tigers organization had, that didn't get a chance and that were actually in a position to deserve a chance. Too many people get wrapped up in prospects who have been around the minor league system for a while, in which that some people had predicted to become a part of the future 3-5 years ago.

But the main idea that rubs me the wrong way, is people who say no to Damon because they think if the Tigers are going young at some positions that they need to basically go young everywhere, in order to see what other prospects can do as well. So basically tank a season.

Baseball is so different than other sports to the point where you can actually re-build on the go eaiser than other sports. One main reason for that is because the draft is such a crap shoot and signability issues with top prospects are dropping thier draft position to lower slots.

[Scottwood]

If they do sign Damon, they could probably spin the off season as follows:

They replaced Granderson's D in CF with Austin Jackson.
They replaced Granderson's O from the left side with Damon.
They upgraded their pitching staff going from Jackson to Scherzer.
They upgraded at closer going from Rodney to Valverde
They upgraded their depth in the bullpen with the additions of Coke and Schlereth.
Sizemore is only a slight downgrade from Polanco

And, unlike last year, they could get a full year out of Bonderman and better play from their #5 guy, along with continued development from Porcello and the same performance out of Verlander. Health and maturation from Perry and Zumaya could make a big difference in the back end of the pen, and getting healthy and productive years out of Guillen and Ordonez will add up to an improved offense.

And, they may end up being right.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

If they do sign Damon, they could probably spin the off season as follows:

They replaced Granderson's D in CF with Austin Jackson.
They replaced Granderson's O from the left side with Damon.
They upgraded their pitching staff going from Jackson to Scherzer.
They upgraded at closer going from Rodney to Valverde
They upgraded their depth in the bullpen with the additions of Coke and Schlereth.
Sizemore is only a slight downgrade from Polanco

And, unlike last year, they could get a full year out of Bonderman and better play from their #5 guy, along with continued development from Porcello and the same performance out of Verlander. Health and maturation from Perry and Zumaya could make a big difference in the back end of the pen, and getting healthy and productive years out of Guillen and Ordonez will add up to an improved offense.

And, they may end up being right.

This was exactly my thinking even BEFORE the possible addition of Damon (minus Damon's contribution, of course); and think adding Damon would give us an extra push towards the playoffs. Just enough... that we might actually make it...

[Titus Tiger]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

This was exactly my thinking even BEFORE the possible addition of Damon (minus Damon's contribution, of course); and think adding Damon would give us an extra push towards the playoffs. Just enough... that we might actually make it...

Let's wait until the Allstar break, I htink Johnny D will still be around

[JonBenke]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

If they do sign Damon, they could probably spin the off season as follows:

They replaced Granderson's D in CF with Austin Jackson.
They replaced Granderson's O from the left side with Damon.
They upgraded their pitching staff going from Jackson to Scherzer.
They upgraded at closer going from Rodney to Valverde
They upgraded their depth in the bullpen with the additions of Coke and Schlereth.
Sizemore is only a slight downgrade from Polanco

And, unlike last year, they could get a full year out of Bonderman and better play from their #5 guy, along with continued development from Porcello and the same performance out of Verlander. Health and maturation from Perry and Zumaya could make a big difference in the back end of the pen, and getting healthy and productive years out of Guillen and Ordonez will add up to an improved offense.

And, they may end up being right.

It's not spin if it's fact. The Granderson/Jackson trade gave us four players, younger and possibly better players going forward ... that was a nice start.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

TTF they're starting 2 and will likely add Avila to that mix..I think they are doing exactly what you're asking.

I know, but if they get off to a slow start, they might be shipped to the Hens. I think they need to let the young guys play without the fear of being demoted should they fail to produce at a high level. Let them fail and learn.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

I know, but if they get off to a slow start, they might be shipped to the Hens. I think they need to let the young guys play without the fear of being demoted should they fail to produce at a high level. Let them fail and learn.

Only expansion teams do that..would you prefer one of those..young players without the requirement of some standard of perfromance are called minor leaguers..

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by JonBenke

It's not spin if it's fact. The Granderson/Jackson trade gave us four players, younger and possibly better players going forward ... that was a nice start.

Well, there are two sides to every story. I could have created a much more negative look at the off season if I needed too. I just gave one perspective and I wouldn't say anything I wrote is a fact.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

Only expansion teams do that..would you prefer one of those..young players without the requirement of some standard of perfromance are called minor leaguers..

How short should the rope be for non-expansion teams?

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

How short should the rope be for non-expansion teams?

Different rope for different players..

[ToledoTigerFan]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

Different rope for different players..

Well, obviously, but there should be some general numbers that apply. There should be a, hmmm, ballpark figure for a position player pertaining to at-bats, fielding, BA, OBP, errors, etc. For instance, I don't think it's possible to get a good read from 25 at-bats.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

Well, obviously, but there should be some general numbers that apply. There should be a, hmmm, ballpark figure for a position player pertaining to at-bats, fielding, BA, OBP, errors, etc. For instance, I don't think it's possible to get a good read from 25 at-bats.

Nope, I leave that to Dombrowski and Leyland

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

Well, obviously, but there should be some general numbers that apply. There should be a, hmmm, ballpark figure for a position player pertaining to at-bats, fielding, BA, OBP, errors, etc. For instance, I don't think it's possible to get a good read from 25 at-bats.

You can never get a good read on a player over a small sample size of data. That is where scouting comes into play. If they don't think a guy is ready, they shouldn't let what he accomplished or failed to accomplish in a small set of games influence their thinking. They also shouldn't have a set number of at bats or innings pitched or a minimum OBP or ERA or anything like that determine if a guy should stay up. There is too much variability in stats over a small sample to let that influence how they construct their roster.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

You can never get a good read on a player over a small sample size of data. That is where scouting comes into play. If they don't think a guy is ready, they shouldn't let what he accomplished or failed to accomplish in a small set of games influence their thinking. They also shouldn't have a set number of at bats or innings pitched or a minimum OBP or ERA or anything like that determine if a guy should stay up. There is too much variability in stats over a small sample to let that influence how they construct their roster.

Ideally, I think a highly rated minor leaguer needs 200 at-bats in a short period of time(say 60 or so games in 70 or so days) to get a good feel for him. Let him settle in a bit and get into a rhythm. It's a good thing the Internets weren't around for Willie Mays' slow start.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan

It's a good thing the Internets weren't around for Willie Mays' slow start.

Why? My post you responded to emphasized that stats don't tell you much in a small sample size. So, if Mays did get off to a slow start, I wouldn't have been worried b/c I know that anyone can have a bad stretch of games. I would have trusted his talent and scout evaluators in making the correct decision in leaving him up to play. Likewise, if Sizemore or Jackson get off to bad starts, I'm not going to look into it too much. Or, if they get off to hot starts, I'm not going to think that we are in the clear. It goes both ways. I generally just trust DD and our talent evaluators in decisions like that. Over a large sample, I can get a pretty good read on a player. Over a small sample size of data, I have very little knowledge about how a player is actually performing and just leave it to the experts.

[berneree]

Originally Posted by EppOnite

Not to just pick on your statement because I've herd so many similar remarks to this, but other than this year (with Sizemore, Jackson and Avila getting a chance), which young players have the Tigers organization had, that didn't get a chance and that were actually in a position to deserve a chance. Too many people get wrapped up in prospects who have been around the minor league system for a while, in which that some people had predicted to become a part of the future 3-5 years ago.

In general....I agree with you. But the Tigers should have given Cody Ross, Jurrjens, Ryan Ludwick, Carlos Pena, Jose Lima, Phil Nevin, Jamie Moyer, Luis Gonzalez, Francisco Cordero, and Jason Fraser better chances. But either way.....that doesn't make us that much of a better team over the past 15 years.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

Why? My post you responded to emphasized that stats don't tell you much in a small sample size. So, if Mays did get off to a slow start, I wouldn't have been worried b/c I know that anyone can have a bad stretch of games. I would have trusted his talent and scout evaluators in making the correct decision in leaving him up to play. Likewise, if Sizemore or Jackson get off to bad starts, I'm not going to look into it too much. Or, if they get off to hot starts, I'm not going to think that we are in the clear. It goes both ways. I generally just trust DD and our talent evaluators in decisions like that. Over a large sample, I can get a pretty good read on a player. Over a small sample size of data, I have very little knowledge about how a player is actually performing and just leave it to the experts.

So, basically, we agree then. A player needs some time beyond a few games. I said 200 at-bats, but you didn't quote that part.