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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    As sickening as it is, they really have no choice but to put up with Laird for another season.
    I don't see it. Yes, Laird is a better defender. However, in the American League of 2010, stopping the running game is not all that important. For the Tigers, I'd like a chance to have a guy with a .750 OPS at C rather than a guaranteed .650. At SS, I'll take the trade off. At C, I'd prefer average D and a decent bat. Note, I am NOT expecting Avila to hit 25 HR or hit .300. A nice .330 OBP and a .420 slugging would be plenty, thank you. :)

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  2. #42
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    Maybe I overvalue defense, but I really don't mind Laird that much. He really is a 2 win player by several metrics (FanGraphs does not use catcher defense in their WAR).

    Wins above Replacement: Gerald Laird

    And, Bill's write up on Laird is good.

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  3. #43
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    I'm curious to know what happened to Ryan. For the Tigers to move him up from AA to AAA to the majors in 2008, they must have seen something in him. Plus, Mark used to talk positively about him until recently. Did he just stop developing?

    I'm kind of disappointed that he didn't work out because I got a chance to see him play at three or four different levels of the minors and he always impressed me.
    Last edited by tiger337; 12-21-2009 at 05:10 PM.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Microline133 View Post
    And the dramatization of a nothing roster move begins....right along with the over-valuing of a commodity like Dusty Ryan.....

    Are we really lamenting the loss of Charlie Lisk in any capacity? Seriously? This is assinine. The guy was a spring training catcher....the same as Andy Bouchie will be....nothing more, nothing less. Anybody that is seeing more than that in Lisk, and subsequently fretting over his departure from the organization, is just looking for things to ***** about.

    This entire cadre of moves....the trading of Ryan, the signing of Diaz, the release of Lisk, the signing of Bouchie, the loss of Skelton, and the receipt of Brooks Brown....they are all nothing moves....absolutely nothing moves!!!
    Thank you!

    Damn, it's Dusty Freaking Ryan for Chrissakes.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
    Thank you!

    Damn, it's Dusty Freaking Ryan for Chrissakes.
    You seem the most upset. About a 50 post thread in December discussing a trade? What's the big deal? I didn't really see much freaking out above, but maybe I missed it..

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  6. #46
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    The day people stop over analyzing minor transactions is the day I stop posting at MTS. This is the kind of thing that makes this place fun.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballmich View Post
    Can we add the trade for Laird to the list of nothing moves that I'd like to lament about? Because that one continues to piss me off.
    I've been lamenting the loss of Moscoso for..nah...I haven't..

  8. #48
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    How about we wait on the PTBNL before attacking the deal?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportz4life View Post
    I've been lamenting the loss of Moscoso for..nah...I haven't..
    I want Kevin Whelan back...

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseball3 View Post
    Reported by Scott Drucker just minutes ago:

    Dusty Ryan to Padres, no details yet
    ...probably the 1st chip in a trade for AG.
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  11. #51
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    In just a few days we have lost Catchers Matt Treanor and Dusty Ryan and before that Sardinha to free agent so we have around two months before we loose another 2 to 3 Minor League catchers that will be released so we better get over it.

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edman85 View Post
    How about we wait on the PTBNL before attacking the deal?
    I suspect his name will be Cash. Same for the Rapada deal if it's an option.

  13. #53
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    Drucker is playing in puerto rico, maybe Ryan is staying at the same hotel
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportz4life View Post
    After 2 seasons and a ST..I'm guessing Leyland would have a decent handle on whether Dusty Ryan had some major league catching potential..there were obviously some defensive issues that Smokes found to be irratating..20 year managers typically have better talent evaluation skills than message boards..especially about secondary players who provide limited and specific functions to teams.
    +1

  15. #55
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    I wonder if part of the deal was the Mariners have to take Jarrod Washburn back

    or maybe they found out that Ryan came up lame and this how we get even with Seattle
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Tiger View Post
    I wonder if part of the deal was the Mariners have to take Jarrod Washburn back

    or maybe they found out that Ryan came up lame and this how we get even with Seattle
    The Seattle Padres?
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  17. #57
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    oops

    right

    but I still want Washburn back to Seattle
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    I'm curious to know what happened to Ryan. For the Tigers to move him up from AA to AAA to the majors in 2008, they must have seen something in him. Plus, Mark used to talk positively about him until recently. Did he just stop developing?

    I'm kind of disappointed that he didn't work out because I got a chance to see him play at three or four different levels of the minors and he always impressed me.
    At the risk of speculating, that has all the makings of something off the field.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueytaxi View Post
    Just sent family a message.....hope to hear something. GrandmaG? Is this news?
    Lips were sealed until the official release!! Hoping only the best for Dusty, closer to home maybe!! Have 2 years of good memories that replaces all the trash Dusty talk here....
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Tiger View Post
    oops

    right

    but I still want Washburn back to Seattle
    lol. I think they wanted him back actually.
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  21. #61
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    I liked Ryan, but I don't think he's all that hard to replace. He isn't all that mobile behind the plate. We'll probably get the Padres version of Dusty Ryan in exchange. A tall catcher that is a fringe prospect.
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandma g View Post
    Lips were sealed until the official release!! Hoping only the best for Dusty, closer to home maybe!! Have 2 years of good memories that replaces all the trash Dusty talk here....
    Just heard from family. They finally can travel to see him play.
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  23. #63
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    There goes Dusty Doc Manhattan Ryan, who once hit a BP homer to Hank Greenberg, over a quarter of a mile from home plate.
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  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
    Thank you!

    Damn, it's Dusty Freaking Ryan for Chrissakes.
    Dusty Ryan is better and cheaper than the guy replacing him

    I don't care if neither of them are any good or will play much at all, I'd prefer not to sign a crappy player from outside the organization to replace a slightly less crappy player who is then shipped off for nothing.

    Dusty Ryan can hit left handed pitching, that alone makes him more valuable than any other non Laird/Avila catcher the Tigers have, because none of them can hit anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman85 View Post
    How about we wait on the PTBNL before attacking the deal?

    He cleared waivers (or I assume so, as he was assigned to Toledo a couple of days ago), why on earth would it be anything other than cash?
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  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cioe View Post
    There goes Dusty Doc Manhattan Ryan, who once hit a BP homer to Hank Greenberg, over a quarter of a mile from home plate.
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  26. #66
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    OK I'm going to come right out and say it. I freaking love Gerald Laird.
    However (!) I would like to see a platoon of Avila/Laird in 2010.
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  27. #67
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    Padres have a logjam of 3b's in their system. Maybe DD wants to look em over in ST before picking a PTBNL.
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  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by keystone View Post
    Padres have a logjam of 3b's in their system. Maybe DD wants to look em over in ST before picking a PTBNL.
    Do they have a 3B named ca$h??

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by keystone View Post
    Padres have a logjam of 3b's in their system. Maybe DD wants to look em over in ST before picking a PTBNL.
    I'm not certain what kind of 3rd baseman you'd get for Dusty Freaking ( ) Ryan...?

    The Padres have Kody Kirkland in their system now? And are willing to give him back to us for Ryan?
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  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan View Post
    I liked Ryan, but I don't think he's all that hard to replace. He isn't all that mobile behind the plate. We'll probably get the Padres version of Dusty Ryan in exchange. A tall catcher that is a fringe prospect.
    I agree, for the most part it seems you get a decent catcher and he is around for several years (enough time to prepare in the farm system)
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  31. #71
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    Where's all the media coverage on this blockbuster? Nothing from Buster Olney... Keith Law... even Rob Neyer!

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  32. #72
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    "Why does everyone keep talkign about me?"

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  33. #73
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    I liked Dusty Ryan because I lived in Merced where he grew up and was about a quarter mile from Merced JC where he played his college ball. I wish the best for him as a Padre!
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  34. #74
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    Its a firesale!

  35. #75
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    I still think it doesn't make alot of sense to give up somebody who has at least shown promise like Ryan. Its not as if the Tigers system is stocked full of catching prospects.
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  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Plus, Mark used to talk positively about him until recently. Did he just stop developing?
    I'll walk the timeline with my impressions and/or thoughts on Dusty, just to clear things up, because I think what Lee states above, might be a common misconception.....

    2004 - I spoke very highly of him after his first campaign in Oneonta. I also rated him very highly in our prospect rankings at Tigstown (somewhere around 20-23 if I recall). He was raw, but he was a catcher with great arm strength, defensive tools, power in his bat, and a clue at the plate.

    2005-2007 - I still liked the raw potential, and said as such...but I also acknowledged the injury issues and lack of consistency. He wasn't translating his power to games very well, and his defenisve tools weren't completely translating. He had fallen dramatically in my rankings, but that was as much a function of his injuries as anything else.

    2008 - He was finally healthy again, and you could see things slow down for him...the game became easier for him again. The power started showing in games, he was working counts again, and he was developing as a more vocal leader. He had a shiny 50 plate appearances in Detroit (an ascension that was as much a product of pure need, as it was an actual belief that he had something overly significant to bring to the long term table) and people started getting very, very excited about his future....and comments from me of potential, started to turn to comments of caution and concern over what people seemed to be projecting. He has never projected as a premium catcher with the stuff to be a legit starter on a competitive club. He has always projected as a guy with enough defensive tools and enough power to help off a big league bench, particularly against left-handed pitching. He clearly moved back up in the rankings, but while some insisted he was the catcher of the future and one of the Tigers top prospects, my enthusiasm remained somewhat tempered and he fit in the 18-22 range in what was then a pretty poor system.

    2009 - The belief that Dusty was more than he actually was continued....though I suppose that's through no fault of anyone's. The picture of Dusty as a significant contributor in Detroit never should have been painted in any fashion....he was a backup catcher, not someone that was going to play half a season and solidify himself in the lineup. My comments reflected this over-valuing of him....just as in the past, my negative comments on Kody Kirkland, Kevin Whelan, Humberto Sanchez, etc, evolved in an attempt to re-align expectations with reality.


    I've not soured on Dusty as a prospect, he's still the same guy I saw in 2004 (which is both good and bad)....he's got power, defensive tools, a strong arm, and a clue at the plate....but some of the other things you might have looked forward to developing to round out the package, things like shortening or compacting the swing, becoming better on balls in the dirt and on receiving breaking balls, etc., just never happened....which in turn keeps him from developing from a big league backup into a more significant big league contributor.

    The Tigers removed a backup catcher from the 40-man roster, nothing more than that.....this isn't a big deal. Unless things fall apart in spring training, he wasn't going north as the backup anyway (even if he was, he's not the .880 ops guy you saw in 2008), he was heading back to Toledo for a time share with Robinzon Diaz or Max St. Pierre.

    It's fun to over-analyze what are essentially nothing moves, I understand that, but the idea that the Tigers have somehow mis-managed their roster by DFA'ing Dusty Ryan and susquently trading him to the Padres (he had not yet cleared waivers by the way, he wasn't set to come off waivers until 12/26), is just not accurate.
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  37. #77
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    I am hoping that Dusty gets to play & not sit in 13 days stretches....I hope the Padres got him to play him....nothing personal here....but NO ONE gets their BA up by sitting!! Hope he has a stronge Spring, will be fresh for him to have a bunch of new coaches working with him...Merry Christmas to the Ryan Family, to hopefully have Dusty closer to home!!
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  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Microline133 View Post
    I'll walk the timeline with my impressions and/or thoughts on Dusty, just to clear things up, because I think what Lee states above, might be a common misconception....

    It's fun to over-analyze what are essentially nothing moves, I understand that, but the idea that the Tigers have somehow mis-managed their roster by DFA'ing Dusty Ryan and susquently trading him to the Padres (he had not yet cleared waivers by the way, he wasn't set to come off waivers until 12/26), is just not accurate.
    Mark,

    Dang, that's just bloody awesome. Thank you for the detailed analysis! There is no doubt I thought that Ryan had the potential to be a .750 OPS with decent defense starting catcher in the majors. Clearly a misconception.
    Thanks, as always, for the informed facts!

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  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
    Maybe I overvalue defense, but I really don't mind Laird that much. He really is a 2 win player by several metrics (FanGraphs does not use catcher defense in their WAR).

    Wins above Replacement: Gerald Laird

    And, Bill's write up on Laird is good.

    Quantifying Gerald Laird
    Laird was hitting well enough until he played about 15 games in a row. His career stats show he can be decent when he plays about half the games. The Tigers had no real backup early on with Sardinha and Treanor so Laird had to play the majority of games. Now that the Tigers have Avila I would like to see the catching time split between Laird and Avila.
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  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobSk View Post
    Mark,

    Dang, that's just bloody awesome. Thank you for the detailed analysis! There is no doubt I thought that Ryan had the potential to be a .750 OPS with decent defense starting catcher in the majors. Clearly a misconception.
    Thanks, as always, for the informed facts!
    Also it was good to remind people that the term "prospect" is a very broad term. I've always tried to read that as "possibly could make the majors", but try not to read into it whether that player will be a starter or more of a scrub, in terms of upside.
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