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  1. #1
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    Default 10 Best(?) and 10 Worst hitters of all time




    Babe Ruth, Ted Williams top list of 10 greatest hitters ever - Joe Posnanski - SI.com

    The most interesting part of the article for a Tigers fan:

    Where does one begin in making a list of the greatest hitters ever? Well, I put together a spreadsheet, and using my very special grading system that I only just invented, I came up with a Top 10 list of hitters. In fact, I have a Top 538 hitters -- those are the 538 hitters in baseball history who compiled more than 6,000 plate appearances. The bottom 10, in case you are curious:
    10. Roy McMillan
    9. Aurelio Rodriguez (but what an arm)
    8. Alfredo Griffin
    6. George McBride
    5. Mickey Doolan
    4. Mark Belanger
    3. Everett Scott
    2. Tim Foli
    1. Ed Brinkman
    Yes, Ed Brinkman. He hit .224/.280/.300 over a long All-Star career (well, he was an All-Star in 1973). He won a Gold Glove, twice got MVP votes, and he was a high school teammate of Pete Rose*. It is also mentioned on Brinkman's Wikipedia page that he holds the record for most seasons with more than 400 at-bats, a batting average lower than .230 and fewer than 15 home runs. That seems kind of like rubbing it in, no? He also holds the records for most seasons with 450 plate appearances and an OPS+ of 70 or lower. I'm sure he holds a lot of records like that. He had a good glove, though.
    ...so we won a Division title with 2 of the 10 worst hitters of ALL time starting at 3B & SS.....
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    2007AT-AAT-Alan Trammell

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    Ty Cobb at #9 is too low.
    the above opinion is not respected by Deleterious

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    Any system that has Edgar Martinez ranked ahead of Honus Wagner has something wrong with it.
    the above opinion is not respected by Deleterious

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    No Ray Oyler, or is he disqualified because he didn't get 6,000 plate appearances?
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigersSlappy View Post
    Babe Ruth, Ted Williams top list of 10 greatest hitters ever - Joe Posnanski - SI.com

    The most interesting part of the article for a Tigers fan:



    ...so we won a Division title with 2 of the 10 worst hitters of ALL time starting at 3B & SS.....
    That's right. It helps to have guys like Al Kaline, Norm Cash, Bill Freehan/Duke Sims and Dick McAuliffe/Tony Taylor picking up their slack. Even so, they were still only an 86-70 team.

    1972 was also one of The Original A-Rod's best years. His follow-on years of 1973 and 1974 were his worst. Lucky us.
    If there's a God, He is laughing at us and our football team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chasfh View Post
    That's right. It helps to have guys like Al Kaline, Norm Cash, Bill Freehan/Duke Sims and Dick McAuliffe/Tony Taylor picking up their slack. Even so, they were still only an 86-70 team.

    1972 was also one of The Original A-Rod's best years. His follow-on years of 1973 and 1974 were his worst. Lucky us.
    I loved that '72 team - (heresy alert) in some ways more than the '68 team.
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    2007AT-AAT-Alan Trammell

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    Quote Originally Posted by apabruce View Post
    No Ray Oyler, or is he disqualified because he didn't get 6,000 plate appearances?
    1445 Plate appearances so not even close and a lot less than I would have guessed.

    Ray Oyler Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
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    2007AT-AAT-Alan Trammell

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    Love that picture of Frank.

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    #9 for Cobb? Really? Not even Top 5?
    "Violence on television only affects children whose parents act like television personalities" -David Byrne

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    That bottom 10 is screwed up. There have been worse hitters than Foli. Same with Aurelio Rodriguez. Foli couldn't hit HR's, but he could get a few doubles and rarely struck out.
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    If you think of it from a pure hitting perspective it's not crazy, of course Wagner was a billion times more valuable than Edgar Martinez due to being a SS rather than a DH

    Also, Edgar Martinez was really good
    Kobernoooooous

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    Edgar Martinez was an incredible hitter, and easily the best pure RH hitter I've ever seen, when healthy. It's hard to compare eras, but .....

    Pujols may be right at the top some day soon, at the rate he's going.
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    I wonder if Edgar Martinez will get into the Hall of Fame?
    I would vote for him but I don't know if he'll make it.
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    Imagine him healthy his whole career. He has my vote.
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    Him, A-Rod and Griffey in the same lineup.
    How did they not win at least one world series?
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    How did Ed Brinkman finish 9th in MVP voting in 1972? Good lord. He had a 59 OPS+! 59!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by apabruce View Post
    No Ray Oyler, or is he disqualified because he didn't get 6,000 plate appearances?
    Even if he did get the 6000 PAs, they couldn't put him on that list or all the Seattle Pilots fans out there would riot.

    (Look up the Ray Oyler Fan Club)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan View Post
    That bottom 10 is screwed up. There have been worse hitters than Foli. Same with Aurelio Rodriguez. Foli couldn't hit HR's, but he could get a few doubles and rarely struck out.
    Keep in mind that it is the worst 10 hitters with 6,000 plate appearances, which is quite a lot. Only 607 men have amassed 6,000 AB in their MLB career, which is less than 5% of all players in the history of the majors. Not only that, that group of 607 men is largely consisted of the very best players in major league history. So it is entirely possible that Tim Foli is one of the worst 10 hitters among the top 607 men in PA. That isn't a knock on Tim. Anyone with a full 10-year career (which is roughly what 6000 PA equates to) was at least a solid player.

    IIRC, Bill James once compiled a list of the weakest hitters at each position with 2000 games played, and the weakest RF was Wally Moses, and his career OPS+ was 109! Obviously, there have been far worse hitters that played RF - just none who had a career as long as Wally. Same goes for Foli and others. There were definately worse hitters that played in the majors than the ones on the list, but those poorer hitters just hit so bad or couldn't field as well, so they couldn't stick around long enough to play 10 full seasons.

    One other thing - 6000 AB is an arbitrary number. If the cut-off point were 5,000 PA, it is possible different 10 guys would be identified as the "10 worst hitters in MLB history". Neifi Perez has 5,510 PA, for example.
    Last edited by Mr. Bigglesworth; 10-15-2009 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    Keep in mind that it is the worst 10 hitters with 6,000 plate appearances, which is quite a lot. Only 607 men have amassed 6,000 AB in their MLB career, which is less than 5% of all players in the history of the majors. Not only that, that group of 607 men is largely consisted of the very best players in major league history. So it is entirely possible that Tom Foli is one of the worst 10 hitters among the top 607 men in PA. That isn't a knock on Tom. Anyone with a full 10-year career (which is roughly what 6000 PA equates to) was at least a solid player.
    MB,

    It is Tim Foli, not Tom.

    You are probably thinking of Cincinnati/Montreal SS/2b, Tom Foley - similar in many ways, I suppose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoknew View Post
    How did Ed Brinkman finish 9th in MVP voting in 1972? Good lord. He had a 59 OPS+! 59!!
    I've heard the dude could really, really pick it. We are talking close to Ozzie Smith level defense. I think it's also fair to say that pitching and defense were far more important in 1972 - and will be again, once PED's are brought under control for good.
    However, that would make Jake 100% correct at that point, which could be an issue.
    Last edited by DaYooperASBDT; 10-15-2009 at 06:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    I've heard the dude could really, really pick it. We are talking close to Ozzie Smith level defense. I think it's also fair
    to say that pitching and defense were far more important in 1972 - and will be again, once PED's are brought under control for good.
    However, that would make Jake 100% correct at that point, which could be an issue.
    He set the record for consecutive errorless games by a shortstop in 1972 with 72(!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by redshark63 View Post
    MB,

    It is Tim Foli, not Tom.

    You are probably thinking of Cincinnati/Montreal SS/2b, Tom Foley - similar in many ways, I suppose.
    Oops!

    I edited the post in question.

    I wasn't thinking of Tom Foley, actually. I simply wasn't thinking...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Imagine him healthy his whole career. He has my vote.
    They waited too long to bring him up also. Had a guy who they thought was a better guy at third then. Jimmy Presley. Took him 8 years after signing to be a regular in the majors.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by redshark63 View Post
    He set the record for consecutive errorless games by a shortstop in 1972 with 72(!)
    I think he also holds the record for choking up on a bat the most. He held the bat near the damn trademark. I'll see if I can find a picture of Steady Eddie at the plate.
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    Steady Eddie and Teddy Ballgame. Two extremes in hitting prowess. Couldn't find a picture of Eddie holding a bat.
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    Ray Oyler, Eddie Brinkman, and don't forget Tom Veryzer. The Tiger shortstops back then were really feared at the plate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by roarintiger1 View Post
    Ray Oyler, Eddie Brinkman, and don't forget Tom Veryzer. The Tiger shortstops back then were really feared at the plate!
    Don't forget ol' Dick Tracewski. Its hard to imagine a team with so many black holes in the batter's box winning a World Series...

    BTW, Tracewski has 4 WS rings.
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    My favorite memory of Eddie Brinkman was when he dropped the f bomb on live TV after the Tigers clinched the 1972 division title.

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    Tommy Matchick wasn't exactly a Triple Crown threat either, I see.
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    How could Rob Deer not be in the bottom 10?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper View Post
    How could Rob Deer not be in the bottom 10?
    That arbitrary 6,000 level wasn't met.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper View Post
    How could Rob Deer not be in the bottom 10?
    Quote Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan View Post
    That arbitrary 6,000 level wasn't met.
    On top of that, the guy could hit home runs. A man of the three true outcomes, HR, BB, K.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper View Post
    How could Rob Deer not be in the bottom 10?
    For a guy who couldn't hit, his OBP was 3 points lower than Curtis Granderson last year. And he hit a lot of home runs.
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  34. #34
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    My memory also recalls Rob Deer had a pretty good arm.

    This is just a random thought on the subject of outfielders throwing arms. One of my favorite plays to watch is the rightfielder making a throw to third base to nail a runner. I love that play.
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    Half the Twins' lineup could fall under the worst hitter category.
    And they still won the division.
    WTF!
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan View Post
    My memory also recalls Rob Deer had a pretty good arm.

    This is just a random thought on the subject of outfielders throwing arms. One of my favorite plays to watch is the rightfielder making a throw to third base to nail a runner. I love that play.
    Might be a good exercise to rank the best RF arms. Without looking at any stats yet, here's a few that come to mind:

    1. Ichiro Suzuki
    2. Dave Parker
    3. Jesse Barfield
    4. Dwight Evans
    5. Al Kaline
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT View Post
    Might be a good exercise to rank the best RF arms. Without looking at any stats yet, here's a few that come to mind:

    1. Ichiro Suzuki
    2. Dave Parker
    3. Jesse Barfield
    4. Dwight Evans
    5. Al Kaline
    Good list. Ichiro is unrivaled. The best ever. I'd put Dwight Evans at 2.
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    I forgot Roberto Clemente, he's right up there, probably #2. Vlad Guerrero also had a real hose in his prime, haven't seen him in action much lately though.
    Last edited by DaYooperASBDT; 10-17-2009 at 10:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToledoTigerFan View Post
    Good list. Ichiro is unrivaled. The best ever. I'd put Dwight Evans at 2.
    I'll give Ichiro has a great arm, but I'd take Clemente or Kaline over him.

    As for another more recent one, Bobby Higginson had a howitzer out there, too. Not MLB, but I saw Clevlen fire a laser from the RF corner in Toledo on one hop to third last season. It was certainly one of the finest throws I'd ever seen in person.
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    This thread gives me hope that we can win with Adam Everett and Brandon Inge in the infield.
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