When will the Tigers make a Trade?

[pyrotigers]

I'm going to quote Earl Weaver, an MLB legend who knew a lot about baseball

"Team speed? Get some big (expletive) who can hit the (expletive) ball out of the park!"

[monkeytargets37]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

But most likely won't. Not for Dunn.

Better offers than Crosby and Ramirez will be made for Holliday, Hawpe, Scott, etc... Not Dunn, IMO.

I'd pay way more for Dunn than I would for Hawpe or Scott.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by monkeytargets37

I'd pay way more for Dunn than I would for Hawpe or Scott.

But I think this is where the "hitter" versus "player" issue comes in. Most teams won't look at it like you are, as Dunn is the more proficient hitter... they'll see a 1-dimensional guy that they'd only want to slot in as a DH for the next year and few months. That will exclude ALL NL teams (IMO), lowering his price/ desirability.

I'm guessing... but on the desirability scale... if all these guys were available, the pecking list would be Hawpe, Scott, Holliday, Dunn.

[itsallgood8989]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Except that Dunn gets on base much, much, much, much more than Thames. And considering that being on base is the biggest part of offense, that's a pretty big difference.

You're just not correct here in arguing that Dunn isn't a good hitter. You can be of the opinion that you wouldn't trade for him, and that's fine. You can even say you wouldn't trade for any DH, which is also an opinion. It's a dumb one, but you can have any fool opinion you want to. But you're saying that Dunn isn't a good hitter, which is something that can be verified with numbers. And by every statistic except batting average, Dunn is a well above average player. You might have the opinion that he isn't what the Tigers need, which would also be a bad opinion, but you could make an argument that what they need is defense and contact ability, neither of which he provides. You're trying to say that Dunn isn't a good hitter, when it's demonstrably true that he is a good hitter.

You guys kill me! Just two post up 84 shows that Thames has a better OPS than Dunn.... and you go on how Dunn gets on base much much more! Kind of kills your cred with me... but thats just me...

[DaYooperASBDT]

These tags are getting quite retarded. Even more retarded than mine, if that's possible.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

I'm going to quote Earl Weaver, an MLB legend who knew a lot about baseball

"Team speed? Get some big (expletive) who can hit the (expletive) ball out of the park!"

He was big on big on three run homers but his teams usually had outstanding defense as well. Start with Paul Blair, Mark Belanger and Brooks Robinson and go from there.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

You guys kill me! Just two post up 84 shows that Thames has a better OPS than Dunn.... and you go on how Dunn gets on base much much more! Kind of kills your cred with me... but thats just me...

Dunn is a much better offensive player than Thames, and unlike Thames, he plays against all kinds of pitchers. Dunn is a productive player offensively. That's a fact. Whether his one dimension is a good fit for the Tigers is open for debate.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

You guys kill me! Just two post up 84 shows that Thames has a better OPS than Dunn.... and you go on how Dunn gets on base much much more! Kind of kills your cred with me... but thats just me...

Uh, no he didn't, but I like that you can't read.

[Vonlenska]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

You guys kill me! Just two post up 84 shows that Thames has a better OPS than Dunn.... and you go on how Dunn gets on base much much more! Kind of kills your cred with me... but thats just me...

Dunn: .260/.398/.538 290 AB
Thames: .248/.315/.513 113 AB

What in the hell are you talking about?

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT

These tags are getting quite retarded. Even more retarded than mine, if that's possible.

I think they are pretty funny and I'd rather see that stuff in tags than in the middle of a thread.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

Dunn: .260/.398/.538 290 AB
Thames: .248/.315/.513 113 AB

What in the hell are you talking about?

I'm assuming he's talking about how Thames is better against LHPs than Dunn is against RHPs. Which, has nothing to do with anything, but whatever works for him.

[ToledoTigerFan]

When did winning with good pitching and defense become winning with "small ball"? In each and every game, a team still has to outscore the opposition to win. The term "small ball" has become an overused cliche'.

[Vonlenska]

I wonder how many people realize that Adam Dunn is probably going to hit 500 HR! He has 300 and is 29 years old.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Dunn reminds me a bit of Mickey Tettleton, who surely meets most fans' standard of being a plus offensive player. His three full seasons in Detroit produced these numbers:

1991 - .263/.387/.491 with 31 HR, 89 RBI (OPS+ of 140)
1992 - .238/.379/.469 with 32 HR, 82 RBI (OPS+ of 136)
1993 - .245/.372/.492 with 32 HR, 110 RBI (OPS+ of 132)

Adam Dunn's career numbers: .248/.382/.519 (OPS+ of 131)
and he's coming off five straight years with 40 or more HR,
during which he topped 100 RBI four times. Also he has scored
99 or more runs four times. Plus, he has posted OPS+ season
totals of 146, 141, and 136.

So even if you threw out Dunn's best two years, his stats would
at least be comparable with Mickey Tettleton, in his prime.

I wouldn't mind having that kind of production at DH.

[Clancy]

Rizzo saying he won't trade Dunn is like Trump saying he won't sell his mother. In other words, it's all part of the negotiation process. (as an aside: Who cares if she's dead, she's still a marketable commodity.)

Do yourselves a favour and look up stats for the Chi-Sox hitters. Konerko and Dye are back in peak form and having near-career years and hitting at/above .300. Peirzynski and Podsednik are also both batting above .300. And Ramirez is not too shabby offensively.

I believe we have these guys beat on pitching and defense.... but their offense is some-kinda-scarry. And Quentin's eventual return will only make them more of a force. Quite frankly, these Chi-Sox are coming on strong and I fear we just don't have the horses to hold them off for another 80 games.

We NEED a bat. A left handed bat. A home run bat. We need Dunn.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

Dunn: .260/.398/.538 290 AB
Thames: .248/.315/.513 113 AB

What in the hell are you talking about?

Don't stop him now, he's on a roll ....

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

As a baseball fan and a fan of the Tigers since 1968..... all I can say is I disagree with all of the Dunn love. I further think that if a Dusty Baker, Sparky Anderson, Billy Martin or Jim Leland talk about baseball and which skills are the most important.... All of them talked about smallball is how you win a championship. Pitching and good defense. Not that they would not take a slugger, but they would not trade pitching or defense for it. they all talked about the desire for speed and the ability to create runs when you are facing another great pitcher.

In all my years of watching baseball, I can only recall Eral Weaver of the Orioles who bragged about, " give me a single and I will wait for the HR to drive him in!" Of course Earl did have 4 20 game winners one year!

Just my opinion, after watching Dunn for many years, I would not trade a lot of assets for him. I'm almost of the opinion that if we gave Thames as many AB's as Dunn gets, we might have very similar stats to talk about.

Managers talk about small ball because that is something that involves managing. There's not much they can say about three run homers because that doesn't really have much to do with managing. They also like to talk about small ball because they like to give credit to players who otherwise go unrecognized by the average fan.

Small ball doesn't win championships though. It can help win championships but it's only one element. There are lots of different ways to win championships. Great pitching teams with average offense can win. Great slugging teams with average pitching can win. Great pitching and defense and small ball teams can win. Well balanced teams with a little bit of everything but no outstanding element can win. There is no special roster building formula that works for every team.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Thames can not hit right handed pitching well. He'll get a few home runs, and basically nothing else. Almost zero walks.
Any comparisons with Dunn fail the laugh test, really

2009: .209/.284/.403
2008: .245/.290/.474
2007: .209/.249/.456

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

Dunn: .260/.398/.538 290 AB
Thames: .248/.315/.513 113 AB

What in the hell are you talking about?

The usual...personal opinion that is obliterated by fact..it's his specialty..

[Clancy]

Linking Sparky Anderson with the term "small ball" just makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Check the stats. His championship teams (and those who made the playoffs) had NOTHING to do with "small ball". He won with...

1)....Power,
2)....Defense,
3)....Power,
4)....Pitching
5)....and more power

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by Clancy

Linking Sparky Anderson with the term "small ball" just makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Check the stats. His championship teams (and those who made the playoffs) had NOTHING to do with "small ball". He won with...

1)....Power,
2)....Defense,
3)....Power,
4)....Pitching
5)....and more power

Yeah, well, we've already established that itsallgood isn't all good with facts, or reading comprehension for that matter.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Dunn versus RH'ers: 1.016 (242+ PA's)
Thames versus LH'ers: 1.032 (SSS).

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

You guys kill me! Just two post up 84 shows that Thames has a better OPS than Dunn.... and you go on how Dunn gets on base much much more! Kind of kills your cred with me... but thats just me...

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me what my "cred" looks like to you. Only one of us is both ignorant and obstinate.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

Just curious to all of the sabers out there.... would you trade Miggy for Dunn? The stats say you could with no problem... Just curious

No, because Cabrera can play in the field and is younger. He's also a little better hitter with a chance to become even better.

[Hart]

Just reading back the last couple of pages, there is some good conversation going on in this thread.

There is no question in my mind Dunn would be a huge addition for this team. The fact that Ordonez is platooning I think is a sign he is on his way out after the season, if not earlier...the money should be there for Dunn. The issue is what will Washington ask for in a trade. There is no question in my mind that they would trade him if the right deal came along. I think a package built around Crosby would get it done and that seems worthwhile to me.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by Hart

Just reading back the last couple of pages, there is some good conversation going on in this thread.

There is no question in my mind Dunn would be a huge addition for this team. The fact that Ordonez is platooning I think is a sign he is on his way out after the season, if not earlier...the money should be there for Dunn. The issue is what will Washington ask for in a trade. There is no question in my mind that they would trade him if the right deal came along. I think a package built around Crosby would get it done and that seems worthwhile to me.

You know, they do have a pretty pronounced organizational need at SS...trade Iorg??

[pyrotigers]

I don't even necessarily want Dunn, I think they'd be fine looking for a cheaper option. Really anyone who can just OPS .850+ at DH would be great.

They could just try out Ryan Strieby I don't think he really has anything left to prove at AA

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

I don't even necessarily want Dunn, I think they'd be fine looking for a cheaper option. Really anyone who can just OPS .850+ at DH would be great.

They could just try out Ryan Strieby I don't think he really has anything left to prove at AA

Well, OPSing 850 is no small feat. I have doubts that Ryan Strieby could just show up and hit in the majors.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by The Truman Show

Well, OPSing 850 is no small feat. I have doubts that Ryan Strieby could just show up and hit in the majors.

Everyone who matters does..it's why he isn't here.

[The Truman Show]

On that note though, they need to get him up to Toledo. I think he's done enough Eastern League damage for one year.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I had asked about Strieby in another thread, and Micro expressed/relayed doubts about whether his wrist
will get back to 100% this year. Therefore he may be held back as a result.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

I'm going to quote Earl Weaver, an MLB legend who knew a lot about baseball

"Team speed? Get some big (expletive) who can hit the (expletive) ball out of the park!"

To go along with great "D" Earl's team had some outstanding "P" as well.
He may of made that remark about speed but he had guys that could run as stats will show with steals (and overall team speed) 1969 (3 players with 2b digit steals) ,'70 (4), '71 (4) & '73 (8). All four teams finished in first in the AL East.

But of course he was a great advocate of the three run homer.

[Oblong]

but what gets lost by many about Earl's "3 run homer" is that 2 guys got on base.

[itsallgood8989]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

PPS: The OPS tandem of Dunn & Thames would be (this year at least...):

Dunn versus RH'ers: 1.016 (242+ PA's)
Thames versus LH'ers: 1.032 (SSS).

That's NASTY!!!

Truman, your getting boring.... whenever a guy says he knows more than 2 different organizations and knows more than established major league managers... I just can't listen to you any more...

[pyrotigers]

Originally Posted by The Truman Show

Well, OPSing 850 is no small feat. I have doubts that Ryan Strieby could just show up and hit in the majors.

I have doubts too, on the other hand I'm quite confident that Magglio Ordonez won't, and I also find it highly unlikely Carlos Guillen will. I'll take the 10:1 longshot over the horse with a broken leg.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

Truman, your getting boring.... whenever a guy says he knows more than 2 different organizations and knows more than established major league managers... I just can't listen to you any more...

At what point where you listening to me in the first place? It's not my fault you have no concept of reading comprehension.

Yeah, there's no such thing as a bad manager or a bad GM. Randy Smith knows more than everyone here, Dusty Baker is a genius, and my agreeing with other baseball managers and GMs than the ones you agree with makes me an arrogant jerk. Whatever.

I love how, rather than address the fact that you are completely whiffing on everyone's points in this thread, and rather than trying to actually learn a thing or two, you're focused on making cute ridiculous comments about the tenor of my posts, which you aren't comprehending anyway.

Why do you keep quoting 84's post? Stop sullying 84's good name by pretending that he claimed Marcus Thames' OPS is better than Adam Dunn's. That's not what he's claiming, and if you think that's what he's claiming, you still can't read.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by pyrotigers

I have doubts too, on the other hand I'm quite confident that Magglio Ordonez won't, and I also find it highly unlikely Carlos Guillen will. I'll take the 10:1 longshot over the horse with a broken leg.

I actually think a healthy Carlos Guillen would be capable of posting .825-.850 OPS as a lefty DH platooning with Thames, which would be quite helpful. Obviously "healthy" is a dicey proposition, but we'll get a better idea of his status by the end of the month I think.

My worry is that they're going to refuse to trade for anyone because of Carlos coming back, and then he's going to be no good coming back, and we'll be right back where we started.

[Robinson for MVP]

Originally Posted by The Truman Show

I actually think a healthy Carlos Guillen would be capable of posting .825-.850 OPS as a lefty DH platooning with Thames, which would be quite helpful. Obviously "healthy" is a dicey proposition, but we'll get a better idea of his status by the end of the month I think.

My worry is that they're going to refuse to trade for anyone because of Carlos coming back, and then he's going to be no good coming back, and we'll be right back where we started.

I have this concern as well. If I'm the Tigers, I wouldn't count on Guillen for anything. And if he does turn out to produce, we might still need a corner outfielder because it remains to be seen if MCT and Raburn will continue to produce.

[The Truman Show]

On the bright side, Guillen is going to replace Anderson on the roster. I mean, he HAS to replace Anderson on the roster......right?

[ballmich]

If the team wanted Dunn, who supposedly is off the market, when then not look at LaRoche? Pittsburgh is holding a virtual fire sale.

1. LaRoche is cheaper (I think $7M this year vs $10M for Dunn)
2. I think he's a FA after the season, so no long term payroll impact
3. If he is a FA, then there's potential for type A/B status, if we offer arbitration
4. Generally he's been much better 2nd half than 1st over career
5. Probably could be had for fewer prospects than Dunn.

I'm just saying, if we are going to acquire a DH, LaRoche should be under consideration as well.

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by ballmich

If the team wanted Dunn, who supposedly is off the market, when then not look at LaRoche? Pittsburgh is holding a virtual fire sale.

1. LaRoche is cheaper (I think $7M this year vs $10M for Dunn)
2. I think he's a FA after the season, so no long term payroll impact
3. If he is a FA, then there's potential for type A/B status, if we offer arbitration
4. Generally he's been much better 2nd half than 1st over career
5. Probably could be had for fewer prospects than Dunn.

I'm just saying, if we are going to acquire a DH, LaRoche should be under consideration as well.

I like the LaRoche idea too. He's a guy who does a lot of things well, decent on-base, decent pop, decent average. Struggles with tough lefties, so you platoon him with Thames and you could get formidable DH presence. And he would be much cheaper than Dunn in all respects.