Josh Anderson Is Not Good - Why Start Him?

[DaYooperASBDT]

Josh Anderson is currently sporting a .640 OPS so far in 2009.
Out the 125 MLB outfielders with at least 100 at-bats,
that OPS ranks him 116th. 116th.

Some players ranking above him:
- Endy Chavez
- Brian Anderson
- Coco Crisp
- Ken Griffey Jr.
- Willie Harris
- Willie Blomquist

Some comparison OPS figures:
Nook Logan - .660 career
Milt Cuyler - .631 career
Andres Torres - .604 career

I do understand that Ryan Raburn is not exactly the Second Coming,
but surely he can create more runs than Anderson?

[FloridaTigers]

Speed don't slump.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I liked benching Ordonez, but if it means Anderson gets his AB, I'll be disappointed.

[Yoda]

Hey, does anyone think Leyland should get an extension? or what should we do with Willis?

[sportz4life]

I feel vindicated..I've called him the white Nook Logan..many times..who knew..they were twins..funny thing though..Nook actually bashed much better right handed tha left handed..

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Hey, does anyone think Leyland should get an extension? or what should we do with Willis?

I'm think we should extend him for 2 years before we slump..I'm worried about the Brewers series..our offense is really struggling..Willis..we may have to DL him..who do you think we should promote..Lambert maybe??

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Hey, does anyone think Leyland should get an extension? or what should we do with Willis?

Do you always answer a question with a question?

What I'm driving at is why play him over Raburn? At least Ryan closes his eyes and runs into one once in a while! Seems like a fair question to ask. This isn't old news, Josh Anderson is still being used on a regular basis, and although I know we have hijacked many a thread with discussions about why/why not to play him, I don't recall a specific thread discussing this. Rather than try to search through all the hijacked threads where we all whined about Josh's offensive ineptitude, I figured I would just start an Anderson vs. Raburn discussion. It just really bothers me when a better hitter is losing at-bats. And historically Raburn has actually hit RHP better than LHP, if my memory serves me correctly.

Yes his speed and defense are lovely, but when Nook Logan can outhit you, then it's fair to start questioning his playing time, IMHO.

[Corky]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

I feel vindicated..I've called him the white Nook Logan..many times..who knew..they were twins..funny thing though..Nook actually bashed much better right handed tha left handed..

Nook transcended race.

[Scottwood]

Well, in LF, Anderson has been a very good defender with a 5.0 UZR. And, he does offer speed that Raburn does not. So, Leyland is sacrificing some offense for speed and better defense. That has basically been the theme all year, so I don't think it will change when arguing Anderson vs. Raburn.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

Well, in LF, Anderson has been a very good defender with a 5.0 UZR. And, he does offer speed that Raburn does not. So, Leyland is sacrificing some offense for speed and better defense. That has basically been the theme all year, so I don't think it will change when arguing Anderson vs. Raburn.

Fair enough, but the question is should it be an argument? Or, at what point does offensive ineptitude cause one to lose one's job?

[IdahoBert]

It's not a bad question, but maybe we don't have a lot of depth in our system when it comes to position players and starting guys like Anderson is what you get in that situation. I guess you could just as well ask the same question when it comes to Rayburn. Maybe there's a price to pay for drafting pitchers over position players.

[The Truman Show]

His defense is more valuable to the team than his offense is detrimental.

I guess you could play Raburn instead, iono. Seems like a very minor difference overall. If you'd rather have Raburn, I won't tell you you're wrong.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by The Truman Show

His defense is more valuable to the team than his offense is detrimental.

I guess you could play Raburn instead, iono. Seems like a very minor difference overall. If you'd rather have Raburn, I won't tell you you're wrong.

Agreed. Both are average to below-average outfielders and really should only be 4th outfielders. Anderson has played way too much this year, but Guillen's injury kind of forced that. So far, we have gotten away with it.

It will be interesting to see if Kelly can keep this up. And, it will also be interesting to see if/when Thomas will get a call back up to the big leagues. He does have a better WAR than the other two.

Barring a trade (which I do think is almost guaranteed to happen), I expect our line-up in September to have Thames in LF, Grandy in CF, Thomas in RF and Larish as the DH. Ordonez will be gone by then. Of course, I expect a trade, so this will not come true. And, depending on if the corner outfielder is a good fielder( like a Matt Holliday) will tell us if Thames gets time in LF with Larish as a DH, or if Thames will have to be the DH b/c the corner outfielder acquired is a poor fielder (in which case, Thomas or Anderson would get the other outfield spot and Larish would be a bench player).

[The Truman Show]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

Agreed. Both are average to below-average outfielders and really should only be 4th outfielders. Anderson has played way too much this year, but Guillen's injury kind of forced that. So far, we have gotten away with it.

It will be interesting to see if Kelly can keep this up. And, it will also be interesting to see if/when Thomas will get a call back up to the big leagues. He does have a better WAR than the other two.

Barring a trade (which I do think is almost guaranteed to happen), I expect our line-up in September to have Thames in LF, Grandy in CF, Thomas in RF and Larish as the DH. Ordonez will be gone by then. Of course, I expect a trade, so this will not come true. And, depending on if the corner outfielder is a good fielder( like a Matt Holliday) will tell us if Thames gets time in LF with Larish as a DH, or if Thames will have to be the DH b/c the corner outfielder acquired is a poor fielder (in which case, Thomas or Anderson would get the other outfield spot and Larish would be a bench player).

Don Kelly has been impressive. I don't know how long it's going to last, but you might as well roll with it.

Hopefully they trade for a bat, and then they can roll Thames and the new guy in LF/DH. I'd call up Clete Thomas and have him play RF, he's probably a better player than both Josh or Ryan. I don't see a need for Larish if a new bat came aboard.

[Johnny Mac]

its amazing how people always find something to complain about, no matter what Leyland does someone is going to be complaining about it.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

its amazing how people always find something to complain about, no matter what Leyland does someone is going to be complaining about it.

That's why he gets the big bucks!

[InfanteIago]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

its amazing how people always find something to complain about, no matter what Leyland does someone is going to be complaining about it.

Are you satisfied with the production of Josh Anderson?

[itsallgood8989]

Ryan Raburn:

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2004 23 DET AL 12 31 29 4 4 1 0 0 1 1 0 2 15 .138 .194 .172 .366 -1 5 0 0 0 0 0 4

2007 26 DET AL 49 148 138 28 42 12 2 4 27 3 0 8 33 .304 .340 .507 .847 119 70 7 0 1 1 1 9847/5
2008 27 DET AL 92 199 182 26 43 10 1 4 20 3 1 16 49 .236 .298 .368 .666 75 67 2 0 1 0 1 7954/8
2009 28 DET AL 35 92 80 15 18 3 0 4 14 2 1 11 19 .225 .326 .413 .739 92 33 2 1 0 0 0 79/3D8
4 Seasons 188 470 429 73 107 26 3 12 62 9 2 37 116 .249 .310 .408 .718 87 175 11 1 2 1 2
162 Game Avg. 162 405 370 63 92 22 3 10 53 8 2 32 100 .249 .310 .408 .718 87 151 9 1 2 1 2

Josh Anderson:

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2007 24 HOU NL 21 75 67 10 24 3 0 0 11 1 1 5 6 .358 .413 .403 .816 114 27 0 2 0 1 0 8/79
2008 25 ATL NL 40 146 136 21 40 7 1 3 12 10 1 8 33 .294 .338 .426 .764 101 58 1 1 1 0 2 8/79
2009 26 DET AL 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0 7/9
3 Seasons 116 358 333 48 99 13 4 3 35 21 4 19 54 .297 .340 .387 .727 90 129 5 3 2 1 2
162 Game Avg. 162 500 465 67 138 18 6 4 49 29 6 27 75 .297 .340 .387 .727 90 180 7 4 3 1 3

ATL (1 yr) 40 146 136 21 40 7 1 3 12 10 1 8 33 .294 .338 .426 .764 101 58 1 1 1 0 2
DET (1 yr) 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0
HOU (1 yr) 21 75 67 10 24 3 0 0 11 1 1 5 6 .358 .413 .403 .816 114 27 0 2 0 1 0

NL (2 yrs) 61 221 203 31 64 10 1 3 23 11 2 13 39 .315 .364 .419 .782 105 85 1 3 1 1 2
AL (1 yr) 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0

Not entirely sure how they figure 162 game average... but there it is according to Baseballreference.com

Historically, Anderson has out oerformed Raburn in the Minors. We all know that Anderson is faster and a better defender. So perhaps his seemingly lack of offense right at this moment is not indicative of his talents? Hard to say without more time passage. That is one feature about the sport of baseball that is so cool! It is such a stat driven sport that we can look at about any angle you wish.

I present the history of each player as of now. Based on that history, I believe that Josh Anderson will be a better future baseball player than Ryan Raburn. The future may say different, but history says I am right.

I believe that is why Jim Leland gives more time to Josh Anderson at this point. Jim is simply trying to develop the young player by playing him.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

Ryan Raburn:

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2004 23 DET AL 12 31 29 4 4 1 0 0 1 1 0 2 15 .138 .194 .172 .366 -1 5 0 0 0 0 0 4

2007 26 DET AL 49 148 138 28 42 12 2 4 27 3 0 8 33 .304 .340 .507 .847 119 70 7 0 1 1 1 9847/5
2008 27 DET AL 92 199 182 26 43 10 1 4 20 3 1 16 49 .236 .298 .368 .666 75 67 2 0 1 0 1 7954/8
2009 28 DET AL 35 92 80 15 18 3 0 4 14 2 1 11 19 .225 .326 .413 .739 92 33 2 1 0 0 0 79/3D8
4 Seasons 188 470 429 73 107 26 3 12 62 9 2 37 116 .249 .310 .408 .718 87 175 11 1 2 1 2
162 Game Avg. 162 405 370 63 92 22 3 10 53 8 2 32 100 .249 .310 .408 .718 87 151 9 1 2 1 2

Josh Anderson:

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2007 24 HOU NL 21 75 67 10 24 3 0 0 11 1 1 5 6 .358 .413 .403 .816 114 27 0 2 0 1 0 8/79
2008 25 ATL NL 40 146 136 21 40 7 1 3 12 10 1 8 33 .294 .338 .426 .764 101 58 1 1 1 0 2 8/79
2009 26 DET AL 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0 7/9
3 Seasons 116 358 333 48 99 13 4 3 35 21 4 19 54 .297 .340 .387 .727 90 129 5 3 2 1 2
162 Game Avg. 162 500 465 67 138 18 6 4 49 29 6 27 75 .297 .340 .387 .727 90 180 7 4 3 1 3

ATL (1 yr) 40 146 136 21 40 7 1 3 12 10 1 8 33 .294 .338 .426 .764 101 58 1 1 1 0 2
DET (1 yr) 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0
HOU (1 yr) 21 75 67 10 24 3 0 0 11 1 1 5 6 .358 .413 .403 .816 114 27 0 2 0 1 0

NL (2 yrs) 61 221 203 31 64 10 1 3 23 11 2 13 39 .315 .364 .419 .782 105 85 1 3 1 1 2
AL (1 yr) 55 137 130 17 35 3 3 0 12 10 2 6 15 .269 .301 .338 .640 67 44 4 0 1 0 0

Not entirely sure how they figure 162 game average... but there it is according to Baseballreference.com

Historically, Anderson has out oerformed Raburn in the Minors. We all know that Anderson is faster and a better defender. So perhaps his seemingly lack of offense right at this moment is not indicative of his talents? Hard to say without more time passage. That is one feature about the sport of baseball that is so cool! It is such a stat driven sport that we can look at about any angle you wish.

I present the history of each player as of now. Based on that history, I believe that Josh Anderson will be a better future baseball player than Ryan Raburn. The future may say different, but history says I am right.

I believe that is why Jim Leland gives more time to Josh Anderson at this point. Jim is simply trying to develop the young player by playing him.

You believe incorrectly..the transition from AAA to major leagues is sometimes tricky..I published a disturbing number demostrating how futile as a hitter Josh Anderson is. 19 line drives in 102 AB's..for the year..17 non bunt hits..4 walks..Nook Logan was better..Anderson is blatantly overmatched..how many ground balls to 2B do we need to see?? He has one XBH in his last 86 AB's 6 RBI. Regarding his fielding..just pray, nobody hits a line drive that requires him to come in on the ball..

As for why Leyland plays him..thats coming to an end..what other lefthanded option does he have..

[DaYooperASBDT]

Well if you believe the work of this man, the difference in defensive runs saved between Carl Crawford vs. Manny Ramirez in 2008 was 18 runs, total: http://firebrandal.com/pdfs/fieldingbiblev2excerpt.pdf

Let's assume that Raburn is an exactly average OF. In that case Anderson might save 10 to 12 runs over a full season.

Now if Raburn manages, say, a .750 OPS (.450 SLG), then over a full season he would create approximately 74 runs on offense. If Anderson continues his present .640 OPS (.340 SLG), he would create approximately 56 runs (18 fewer).

Note - that is using the simplified RC formula, don't feel like doing advanced plug and chug tonight.

So I still think it's advantage Raburn, although not by much.

[InfanteIago]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

You believe incorrectly..the transition from AAA to major leagues is sometimes tricky..I published a disturbing number demostrating how futile as a hitter Josh Anderson is. 19 line drives in 102 AB's..for the year..17 non bunt hits..4 walks..Nook Logan was better..Anderson is blatantly overmatched..how many ground balls to 2B do we need to see?? He has one XBH in his last 86 AB's 6 RBI. Regarding his fielding..just pray, nobody hits a line drive that requires him to come in on the ball..

As for why Leyland plays him..thats coming to an end..what other lefthanded option does he have..

Imagine a competition to decide the better ball player between Josh Anderson, Nook Logan, Andres Torres and Kimera Bartee.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

You believe incorrectly..the transition from AAA to major leagues is sometimes tricky..I published a disturbing number demostrating how futile as a hitter Josh Anderson is. 19 line drives in 102 AB's..for the year..17 non bunt hits..4 walks..Nook Logan was better..Anderson is blatantly overmatched..how many ground balls to 2B do we need to see?? He has one XBH in his last 86 AB's 6 RBI. Regarding his fielding..just pray, nobody hits a line drive that requires him to come in on the ball..

As for why Leyland plays him..thats coming to an end..what other lefthanded option does he have..

You neglected to mention that Anderson got regular playing time, and he was in the NL. Raburn has been in the AL, with anything but regular playing time.

Another factor that may be coming into play here - Anderson's inability to draw a walk. MLB pitchers will figure that out and exploit it to the max, by not offering hittable pitches.

Edman said it best, when it comes to Raburn.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by InfanteIago

Imagine a competition to decide the better ball player between Josh Anderson, Nook Logan, Andres Torres and Kimera Bartee.

and Eugene Kingsale

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by InfanteIago

Imagine a competition to decide the better ball player between Josh Anderson, Nook Logan, Andres Torres and Kimera Bartee.

If Nook had stuck to batting right-handed, he might still be around someplace.

[InfanteIago]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

and Eugene Kingsale

Fair enough. We have to remember though Eugene was knighted.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT

You neglected to mention that Anderson got regular playing time, and he was in the NL. Raburn has been in the AL, with anything but regular playing time.

Another factor that may be coming into play here - Anderson's inability to draw a walk. MLB pitchers will figure that out and exploit it to the max, by not offering hittable pitches.

Edman said it best, when it comes to Raburn.

Just the opposite Yoop..when they understand he can't do anything aside from hit a grounder to 2B..they just continually bust him inside with fastballs that are over the plate..why go out of the strike zone..he can't hurt them.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Originally Posted by itsallgood8989

I believe that is why Jim Leland gives more time to Josh Anderson at this point. Jim is simply trying to develop the young player by playing him.

That's always a good idea if there's a lot of upside, but Josh had better be a late bloomer - he turns 27 in August. Raburn just turned 28 in April.

[itsallgood8989]

I might believe incorrectly, I will not disput that. But I also do not want to [B]assume[B] that Raburn is an average OF. I do not believe he is... at least at this point. And since I do not know a lot about either player, I rely on statistics. The statistics show that thus far, Anderson is better. I don't argue that it isn't hard to take when Anderson strikes out with the bases loaded. I don't argue that he doesn't yet seem to get the opportunistic hits that I wish he would. Maybe he will never develop these type of talents. But right now, we don't really have a better option. I don't think Raburn is a better option. Raburn is a slightly better hitter, but a butcher in the OF. Anderson is much better in the OF although I agree, balls hit right at him are cause for a "Willis Anioxity" attacks. Hopefully, he will improve. Or, I believe the Tigers will find a better option via trade. Wilken isn't ready. Raburn, Clevelan or whomever else you want to throw out there from the minors right now are not better than Anderson. anderson really didn't cost us much to get and even with his offensive struggles, he still offers a speed factor. He can steeal a base when you really need it. He might just learn how to put a bunt down! If he does, that would be awesome! Right now Anderson really should be nothing more than the 24th or 25 th player on your roster who mostly does PR and defensive replacement with about 50 - 60 AB's for the season. Anderson is being exposed right now and I think DD and Leland know it... just don't have a lot of options right now.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT

Well if you believe the work of this man, the difference in defensive runs saved between Carl Crawford vs. Manny Ramirez in 2008 was 18 runs, total: http://firebrandal.com/pdfs/fieldingbiblev2excerpt.pdf

Let's assume that Raburn is an exactly average OF. In that case Anderson might save 10 to 12 runs over a full season.

Now if Raburn manages, say, a .750 OPS (.450 SLG), then over a full season he would create approximately 74 runs on offense. If Anderson continues his present .640 OPS (.340 SLG), he would create approximately 56 runs (18 fewer).

Note - that is using the simplified RC formula, don't feel like doing advanced plug and chug tonight.

So I still think it's advantage Raburn, although not by much.

OPS alone will not account for the potential added runs that Anderson may add with his speed. There is some stat for that on Fangraphs that I may look up later on. So, OPS should not be the only thing you look at when trying to look at the Runs a player may create.

But, point taken. And, I'm not saying I want Anderson over Raburn. With our lack of left handed hitters, I think it is understandable why he is playing over Raburn. With that said, I would take Thomas over both of them.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I do like Anderson's speed and his ability to fill in at any OF spot. And I definitely appreciate how injuries and ineffectiveness have forced Leyland to give him a lot more AB's than anticipated.

But OTOH I feel the same deja vu that I felt when we discussed Alex Sanchez, Roger Cedeno, Andres Torres, Nook Logan, Kimera Bartee, Eugene Kingsale, Milt Cuyler ....... and whomever else I missed. You still can't steal first base.

One more point in defense of Raburn's bat - he did post a .913 OPS at AA and a .934 OPS at AAA. He's never really been given an extended stretch of games to worth his MLB, that I can recall. Raburn is a butcher in the infield, but I don't think he's a bad OF overall.

Anderson's overall minor league OPS, by the way, was .720, but he did manage a .358 OBP last year at Richmond. So far it's not translating well at the MLB level, unfortunately.

[itsallgood8989]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

OPS alone will not account for the potential added runs that Anderson may add with his speed. There is some stat for that on Fangraphs that I may look up later on. So, OPS should not be the only thing you look at when trying to look at the Runs a player may create.

But, point taken. And, I'm not saying I want Anderson over Raburn. With our lack of left handed hitters, I think it is understandable why he is playing over Raburn. With that said, I would take Thomas over both of them.

I agree 100% with this! I forgot about Thomas in my last post.... shame on me! Clete should be our starting RF from now on unless we acquire a better OF via Trade. Clete has the potential to be a solid major leaguer! Clete could be a Gold Glove RF. If he can hit 260 or better and give us 18 HR or better.... He would be a core player for the Tigers for a long time.

[tiger337]

I don't think there is really much difference in value between Anderson and Raburn. They are two players with little value and little upside who should not be starting in the Majors. They make decent bench players but I hope the Tigers find a better starter before the season is done.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Clete was really scuffling before being sent back down to AAA, clearly his swing was getting too long. But I think he can fix that and be a future leadoff hitter for this team.

[tiger337]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

OPS alone will not account for the potential added runs that Anderson may add with his speed. There is some stat for that on Fangraphs that I may look up later on. So, OPS should not be the only thing you look at when trying to look at the Runs a player may create.

But, point taken. And, I'm not saying I want Anderson over Raburn. With our lack of left handed hitters, I think it is understandable why he is playing over Raburn. With that said, I would take Thomas over both of them.

The best base running stat is the EQBRR stat at Baseball prospectus. It takes into account not only steals and caught stealing but also taking the extra base on hits, moving up on grounders and fly balls, pickoffs, etc. According to that stat, Anderson is only a little above average this year. - 0.4 runs above league average.

Baseball Prospectus | Statistics | Custom Statistics Reports: Baserunning

[Hongbit]

Speed never takes the first 3 and a half months of the season off.

[DaYooperASBDT]

So what did Raburn do to deserve this fate, anyway? Dude's been sitting the bench for like three years now. His hemorrhoids have developed hemorrhoids. My theory is that he concocted some hoax about a new $5 per pack tax, or something like that.

/whine

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by tiger337

I don't think there is really much difference in value between Anderson and Raburn. They are two players with little value and little upside who should not be starting in the Majors. They make decent bench players but I hope the Tigers find a better starter before the season is done.

This.

[tys-spikes84]

Originally Posted by DaYooperASBDT

How come every time I diss somebody, they promptly go out and get four hits?
Well Josh Anderson, here's to you!

The Josh Anderson Appreciation Thread

Yoop, you jinxer! At least now he's due for a nice roll.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by tiger337

I don't think there is really much difference in value between Anderson and Raburn. They are two players with little value and little upside who should not be starting in the Majors. They make decent bench players but I hope the Tigers find a better starter before the season is done.

Anderson had more value to start the season as a late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner for the corners the Tigers intended to start. Now that Ordonez has imploded and Carlos lost to the DL he's in above his head as a starter. Raburn's only plus is that he plays multiple positions but he doesn't play any of them well and he doesn't have plus speed or bat.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

and Eugene Kingsale

That's Sir Eugene Kingsdale...