Verlander has a new pitch

[Eric Cioe]

Verlander threw 7 pitches tonight, at 87-91 mph, that instead of having 12-15 inches into a righty, went only 4-8 into a righty. That's a cutter, or a very, very hard slider. Where did that come from? Has anyone read about that at all?

[Elevate]

I think you need to be a GM.

[thewave84]

Jim Price said that he was throwing a hard curveball. Not that that really means anything.

[monkeytargets37]

I thought I was going to open this thread and the 1st post would just say "a strike"

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by thewave84

Jim Price said that he was throwing a hard curveball. Not that that really means anything.

This isn't that. He had two different curveballs tonight: one from 75-79, and another, harder, slurvier pitch from 81-84. Sometimes gameday labels those harder curves as a slider.

The pitch I'm talking about looked like a fastball from the CF camera. It'd be really nice to see it from right behind the pitcher so you could see the side to side movement of it, but gameday tracked it just fine.

[Dunkin Darvin]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Verlander threw 7 pitches tonight, at 87-91 mph, that instead of having 12-15 inches into a righty, went only 4-8 into a righty. That's a cutter, or a very, very hard slider. Where did that come from? Has anyone read about that at all?

Doesn't a cutter move away from a right handed hitter?

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Dunkin Darvin

Doesn't a cutter move away from a right handed hitter?

Relative to the fastball, yeah. The league average slider has basically 0 horizontal movement compared to a pitch with no spin. Every pitch in baseball except for wide sliders and the curveball move to a pitcher's pitching arm side when compared to a pitch with no spin. It's a function of arm slot: think about releasing a fastball, and how much topspin it's going to have going basically right at a hitter's head, like 1 or 2 o'clock on a clockface from behind the pitcher.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Verlander threw 7 pitches tonight, at 87-91 mph, that instead of having 12-15 inches into a righty, went only 4-8 into a righty. That's a cutter, or a very, very hard slider. Where did that come from? Has anyone read about that at all?

I wasn't watching, but you mean into a lefty, right? Because he doesn't have a Derek Lowe-type sinker that he can swing back into righties 12-15 inches. 4-8 into a lefty at 87-91 mph indeed sounds like a cutter/hard slider.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

I wasn't watching, but you mean into a lefty, right? Because he doesn't have a Derek Lowe-type sinker that he can swing back into righties 12-15 inches. 4-8 into a lefty at 87-91 mph indeed sounds like a cutter/hard slider.

It's all relative to a pitch with 0 spin. That's how gameday and pitch f/x works.

[billfer]

I don't see those in the pitch f/x file. I see 2 89ish mph that had some strange action, and both were pitches in the dirt. Were the curves he choked off?

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by billfer

I don't see those in the pitch f/x file. I see 2 89ish mph that had some strange action, and both were pitches in the dirt. Were the curves he choked off?

I'm not sure you can choke a curveball at that velocity. I was going by gameday data as it came in.

What was the strikeout pitch to Matsui on?

[ridickulous4u]

I didn't really watch the game, but from the velocity maybe it was a 2-seamer?

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by ridickulous4u

I didn't really watch the game, but from the velocity maybe it was a 2-seamer?

That's what I thought just looking at the velocity. But the movement wasn't in the same direction. Besides, his 2-seamer tonight was 94-95 all night long.

[ridickulous4u]

It probably is some sort of cut fastball. The cutter isn't that hard of pitch to learn to throw.

[billfer]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

I'm not sure you can choke a curveball at that velocity. I was going by gameday data as it came in.

What was the strikeout pitch to Matsui on?

Good catch. It had the spin rate of his curve, but the spin direction was completely different and the vertical movement was similar to his change-up. I have no idea what it is.

[billfer]

He threw it to Jeter in the 2nd and Cano in the 4th as well. The interesting thing is that all of these pitches were in the dirt (according to gameday)

[ridickulous4u]

Maybe he's throwing a split finger lol

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

It's all relative to a pitch with 0 spin. That's how gameday and pitch f/x works.

OK, but compared to a 0 spin pitch, the side spin on a cutter/hard slider thrown by a righty would cause the pitch to move in on a lefty, not a righty.

[Chance]

...Stuff like this is why I visit forums.
Thanks for providing new, relevant information, Eric.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

OK, but compared to a 0 spin pitch, the side spin on a cutter/hard slider thrown by a righty would cause the pitch to move in on a lefty, not a righty.

No it wouldn't. At least not always. You'd be right if the pitcher threw from literally directly over the top. But because everyone throws from some variation of a 3/4 angle, the spin isn't exactly side to side.

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Verlander threw 7 pitches tonight, at 87-91 mph, that instead of having 12-15 inches into a righty, went only 4-8 into a righty. That's a cutter, or a very, very hard slider. Where did that come from? Has anyone read about that at all?

91 sounds like a 2 seamer to me, but.......... The radio broadcast said he threw a "power curve" and also a "hard slider" if they have any significance.

[ridickulous4u]

He brought back the knuckle curve. Now he gets it up to 90 miles an hour

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

No it wouldn't. At least not always. You'd be right if the pitcher threw from literally directly over the top. But because everyone throws from some variation of a 3/4 angle, the spin isn't exactly side to side.

I'm not sure you're quite understanding this. But the point is, the side-to-side component of the spin on a cutter/slider, like the curve, and unlike the fastball, will most often cause a pitch from a righty to move into a lefty, no matter what the arm angle.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

I'm not sure you're quite understanding this. But the point is, the side-to-side component of the spin on a cutter/slider, like the curve, and unlike the fastball, will most often cause a pitch from a righty to move into a lefty, no matter what the arm angle.

I'm not sure you're understanding this. The pitch f/x stuff takes a while to get used to because they measure it in a funny way. The league average fastball has something like 9 inches of arm side run. Sliders don't go 18 inches the opposite way. They move, say, 9 inches relative to the fastball, which means they're back at neutral, or perhaps just slightly past it.

If you're standing directly on a line with home plate and a given pitcher's release point, you'll see just this. The fastball runs in. The changeup runs in. The slider basically stays straight. It moves away from a like handed hitter compared to the fastball, but viewed on a straight line, it doesn't move much side to side.

Here's a graph of Mariano Rivera's pitches and their movement as measured by pitch f/x:



Watching on TV, you'd say that the cutter moves away from a righty by about 6 inches. But it doesn't. It just looks that way, because the fastball is moving in.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

I'm not sure you're understanding this. The pitch f/x stuff takes a while to get used to because they measure it in a funny way. The league average fastball has something like 9 inches of arm side run. Sliders don't go 18 inches the opposite way. They move, say, 9 inches relative to the fastball, which means they're back at neutral, or perhaps just slightly past it.

If you're standing directly on a line with home plate and a given pitcher's release point, you'll see just this. The fastball runs in. The changeup runs in. The slider basically stays straight. It moves away from a like handed hitter compared to the fastball, but viewed on a straight line, it doesn't move much side to side.

Here's a graph of Mariano Rivera's pitches and their movement as measured by pitch f/x:



Watching on TV, you'd say that the cutter moves away from a righty by about 6 inches. But it doesn't. It just looks that way, because the fastball is moving in.

To begin with, let's not deal with Mo Rivera, since his cutter is exceptional not only for its effectiveness, but also because of what that graph points out, which is that he has the unique ability to make it break in either direction.

Moving to Verlander, his slider moves on average 2-3 inches in the same direction as his curveball, which is into lefties and away from righties. (As an aside, the speed on his slider is so similar to his curveball, low-80s, that it's no wonder he doesn't throw the slider very often, since it doesn't break as much, down or away from righties.)

So we can rule out the slider, since it's generally too slow and breaks the wrong way compared to what you were looking at. And since it tops out at 84 or so, I can't imagine him juicing it to 91.

I might be tempted to say it's a hepped-up changeup, which he will occasionally throw in the upper-80s, and since it breaks in the direction of the pitches you were looking at (fastball-based direction, into righties), but Justin's changeup breaks, horizontally, more on average than his fastball, generally around 10-11 inches. So 4-8 wouldn't be a changeup, either.

*shrugs*

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Verlander threw 7 pitches tonight, at 87-91 mph, that instead of having 12-15 inches into a righty, went only 4-8 into a righty. That's a cutter, or a very, very hard slider. Where did that come from? Has anyone read about that at all?

Curious, what was the typical Vertical break on these pitches?

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

To begin with, let's not deal with Mo Rivera, since his cutter is exceptional not only for its effectiveness, but also because of what that graph points out, which is that he has the unique ability to make it break in either direction.

This is our rub. "Either direction" isn't based around the 0 mark. That's just a way of measuring it. It's not uncommon at all for hard cutters to not move to the right of 0 on that graph.

It really doesn't matter that much. He threw a couple pitches at 88-91 tonight that doesn't match the movement on any of his other pitches. Maybe pitch f/x went crazy. We'll see. I'll be watching carefully for any pitches in the high 80s during his next start.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

Curious, what was the typical Vertical break on these pitches?

Right in line with the fastball. That's the weird part.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

This is our rub. "Either direction" isn't based around the 0 mark. That's just a way of measuring it. It's not uncommon at all for hard cutters to not move to the right of 0 on that graph.

It really doesn't matter that much. He threw a couple pitches at 88-91 tonight that doesn't match the movement on any of his other pitches. Maybe pitch f/x went crazy. We'll see. I'll be watching carefully for any pitches in the high 80s during his next start.

We're talking past each other at this point. The point (to me) is, this is not a Verlander slider, since it breaks the wrong direction from a typical Verlander slider.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

We're talking past each other at this point. The point (to me) is, this is not a Verlander slider, since it breaks the wrong direction from a typical Verlander slider.

What slider? His curveball sometimes gets misclassed as a slider, but if Roy Halladay's breaking ball is a curveball, then so is Verlander's.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Right in line with the fastball. That's the weird part.

Then it's Verlander experimenting with simply taking a few mph off his four-seam fastball now and again. A BP fastball, just to change speeds, without using a changeup grip. Same V-break and H-break as a four-seamer. A weird thing to do 6-7 times in a game, to be sure.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

What slider? His curveball sometimes gets misclassed as a slider, but if Roy Halladay's breaking ball is a curveball, then so is Verlander's.

You're certainly right about the miscalling. I'm just talking about the "slider" that shows up 0-2 times a game on his PitchFX.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

Then it's Verlander experimenting with simply taking a few mph off his four-seam fastball now and again. A BP fastball, just to change speeds, without using a changeup grip. Same V-break and H-break as a four-seamer. A weird thing to do 6-7 times in a game, to be sure.

But it doesn't have the typical horizontal boring movement that he gets from his four seamer.

[Beantown Marty]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

But it doesn't have the typical horizontal boring movement that he gets from his four seamer.

Continuing with my (rather tenuous) theory, then the typical H-break of 7-8 inches on his four-seamer could be reduced by a reduction RPMs caused by a reduction in velocity. I could be full of crap there, though.

[Beantown Marty]

Or, like ridickulous4u postulated (jokingly?), it's a split-finger fastball (and a rather hanging one, if the V-break matches the four-seamer... ).

[billfer]

Originally Posted by Beantown Marty

Then it's Verlander experimenting with simply taking a few mph off his four-seam fastball now and again. A BP fastball, just to change speeds, without using a changeup grip. Same V-break and H-break as a four-seamer. A weird thing to do 6-7 times in a game, to be sure.

I don't think that's it. The spin direction is 170ish for this new pitch and 220ish for his 4 seam fastball. It is more consistent with a slider or cutter.

[TonyJM]

Really interesting thread guys.

[Greenwit]

http://brooksbaseball.net/pfx/index....F&prevDate=427

Cool beans!

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Greenwit

http://brooksbaseball.net/pfx/index....F&prevDate=427

Cool beans!

There it is, that little group right in the middle of the movement chart. What was that?

[djhutch]

Originally Posted by ScrubBeaterUpper

91 sounds like a 2 seamer to me..........

This was my thought as well. I know he was coming inside to right-handers & away from lefties all night. Good action on it.