Do Tigers stand pat at Trade Deadline?

[JayVee]

and some of the other guys -- Matt Joyce for example --- maybe they haven't really lit it up, are guys you drafted for a reason, not because you thought you could trade them away after a couple years...

I believe if you are going to go after someone at the trade deadline there should be a two-fold purpose:
a) you need him

2) since you need him, you go after him long term

Are you saying that you shouldn't ever trade ANYONE you draft after a couple years?

Maybe that's what they planned to do all along?

[ToledoTigerFan]

and some of the other guys -- Matt Joyce for example --- maybe they haven't really lit it up, are guys you drafted for a reason, not because you thought you could trade them away after a couple years...

I believe if you are going to go after someone at the trade deadline there should be a two-fold purpose:
a) you need him

2) since you need him, you go after him long term

That's why I think people criticizing the Cabrera deal are jumping the gun on saying it was a bad trade. We traded an unproven young player for a proven young player. If Cabrera were 32 or 33, the trade was probably a bad one. But since his prime years are just now upon us, the trade is probably a good one, long term. Also, Cabrera hasn't been 100% healthy all year. First, there was the calf injury, then the Tigers moved him all over the place, and now he's got this hip injury(or whatever it is). The Magglio signing looked like a stinker until 2006. Now, it looks like the biggest bargain in all of MLB. A batting champion with power and run-production for $15 million? Where do you get that for $15 mil?

[baseball3]

I'll say it again.......

.......I sure wouldn't mind an outfield of Granderson, Joyce and Thomas as a ML outfield of the future!

[baseball3]

Don't we have Magglio tied up through 2010?

[AlaskanTigersFan]

Do people not know how to create a poll when starting a thread?

I didn't want a yes or no answer. That's why I didn't include a poll....

[Titus Tiger]

Are you saying that you shouldn't ever trade ANYONE you draft after a couple years?

Maybe that's what they planned to do all along?

yes and no

I hope you scout your draftees for players that will fit and for the future

By 'fit' I mean a) Comerica Park kinds of guys (like a Granderson)
and by need and b) need right now First base power hitter is a need
... This isn't a criticism of Cabrera, but I see him as a DH. (I wouldn't draft a lot of center fielders right now)

That said... there are probably several players that have shown they don't fit... (guys who like to punch their teammates,) and you trade them... And occasionally you trad Cameron Maybin because what you can get.. I wouldn't make a habit of it

[monkeytargets37]

I'll go ahead and make this the 4th year in a row that I say we should acquire Damaso Marte

[JayVee]

... This isn't a criticism of Cabrera, but I see him as a DH.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Maybe 12 years from now, you can DH Miggy, but 1st base is his "natural" position, in my book...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

yes and no

I hope you scout your draftees for players that will fit and for the future

By 'fit' I mean a) Comerica Park kinds of guys (like a Granderson)
and by need and b) need right now First base power hitter is a need
... This isn't a criticism of Cabrera, but I see him as a DH. (I wouldn't draft a lot of center fielders right now)

That said... there are probably several players that have shown they don't fit... (guys who like to punch their teammates,) and you trade them... And occasionally you trad Cameron Maybin because what you can get.. I wouldn't make a habit of it

Cabrera can play 1B. He doesn't need to to become a DH just yet.

[djhutch]

I hope they don't give up anything for Greg Maddux. I love Maddux, but he doesn't have much left in the tank. I see no point in throwing players away.

[Eric Cioe]

yes and no

I hope you scout your draftees for players that will fit and for the future

By 'fit' I mean a) Comerica Park kinds of guys (like a Granderson)
and by need and b) need right now First base power hitter is a need
... This isn't a criticism of Cabrera, but I see him as a DH. (I wouldn't draft a lot of center fielders right now)

That said... there are probably several players that have shown they don't fit... (guys who like to punch their teammates,) and you trade them... And occasionally you trad Cameron Maybin because what you can get.. I wouldn't make a habit of it

I think this is a bad strategy for drafting. It can take a player 4 years to get to the majors. It's hard to tell what the team is going to look like by then. That's why you have to draft the best player, regardless of position, so that they can fill holes or be trade bait to fill the holes.

[Eric Cioe]

I hope they don't give up anything for Greg Maddux. I love Maddux, but he doesn't have much left in the tank. I see no point in throwing players away.

I doubt it would take much. It would be a 3 month rental, so they couldn't ask much.

[Sports_Freak]

I bet the Indians wouldn't want much for Byrd. He'd be a frustrating guy to watch but I've always liked him.

There's no way the Indians would trade him to a division rival. Unless we overpaid and then I don't want any part of that deal.

[Sports_Freak]

I think they'll make a strong push for Freddie Garcia, assuming of course he proves he's healthy. This will be mainly due to the fact that he'll cost them nothing but dollars (i.e no prospects). Maddux would be nice, but I doubt he'll come here and he'll cost more than the Tigers are willing/able to part with. I think Lowe might be available and I think they could afford him, but I'm not sure if he'll be much of an improvement over the guys we have in there now. Burnett will be out of our price range, as will Sabathia. Bonds, again I say no. The last thing this lineup needs is another old and post-steroidal injury susceptible guy, even with the OPS he'll bring when healthy. I can't see much other movement for this team.

The problem with Garcia is that Boras is his agent and will probably try to get a long term contract. It could end up being very costly for an injury prone pitcher.

[Sports_Freak]

I think Willis's progress over the next 3 weeks plays a role in whether they stand pat.

Good point and good post.

[Titus Tiger]

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Maybe 12 years from now, you can DH Miggy, but 1st base is his "natural" position, in my book...

I am projecting. The first baseman you draft today isn't playing in the majors for several years, which means someone has to play first while that guy develops --- i.e. Cabrera.

and as my point was, either you realize Miguel is your star firstbaseman (the AL Pujol) and then you consider trading said draftee

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I am projecting. The first baseman you draft today isn't playing in the majors for several years, which means someone has to play first while that guy develops --- i.e. Cabrera.

and as my point was, either you realize Miguel is your star firstbaseman (the AL Pujol) and then you consider trading said draftee

Miguel has a 8-year deal and is 24. Why would you think he isn't the star 1st baseman? If anything, the Tigers are more set at 1B than any other position.

More to the point, since it takes a while to develop a player, and injuries or trades can come at any time, it behooves a team to take the best player available (they think they can sign) in any given spot.

[Sports_Freak]

Ahhhh....I have an answer. Sign Jose Lima. He's only 36 years old and we could have LimaTIME back!

[Titus Tiger]

Miguel has a 8-year deal and is 24. Why would you think he isn't the star 1st baseman? If anything, the Tigers are more set at 1B than any other position.

More to the point, since it takes a while to develop a player, and injuries or trades can come at any time, it behooves a team to take the best player available (they think they can sign) in any given spot.

Missed your point --- who are all the first basemans

and Cabrera has been stellar at first? It hasn't sounded liked that on the radio
... maybe you eyes are better than my ears

[ToledoTigerFan]

Ahhhh....I have an answer. Sign Jose Lima. He's only 36 years old and we could have LimaTIME back!

Let's not and say we did.

[lesgoblu02]

Missed your point --- who are all the first basemans

and Cabrera has been stellar at first? It hasn't sounded liked that on the radio
... maybe you eyes are better than my ears

Cabrera is your 1B. Of all the positions on the diamond, 1B is the easiest to plug someone in for a while if an injury should pop up. Cabrera hasn't been stellar. But he's been servicable. And considering this is his first stint, I'll give him a while longer before making him the DH.

[JayVee]

Cabrera is your 1B. Of all the positions on the diamond, 1B is the easiest to plug someone in for a while if an injury should pop up. Cabrera hasn't been stellar. But he's been servicable. And considering this is his first stint, I'll give him a while longer before making him the DH.

Exactly... I bet (hope) we're gonna see Miggy at first for a LOOOONG time, and he will be really good defensively, eventually.

[waffel]

Guillen for Greinke.

[Doctor Detroit]

I think this is a bad strategy for drafting. It can take a player 4 years to get to the majors. It's hard to tell what the team is going to look like by then. That's why you have to draft the best player, regardless of position, so that they can fill holes or be trade bait to fill the holes.

Exactly. You don't draft players because at 18 they seem to fit Comerica or fit some major league need you have this year. You take the best player available, you take power bats and arms, and you look at major league potential. THe baseball draft isn't like the NBA or NFL draft where guys come in and contribute right away and there are a ton of misses, even in the first half of the first round. Plus an 18 to 20 year old is going to change physically over three or four years and a guy who might be a gap hitter turns into a guy who can mash homers. Also guys can switch positions and a 1Bman may be able to move to 3B or even the OF.

[Doctor Detroit]

The problem with Garcia is that Boras is his agent and will probably try to get a long term contract. It could end up being very costly for an injury prone pitcher.

Not sure about that. Garcia is going to have to finish this year out to show he is healthy and well and then he can worry about a long-term deal. That's what I think anyway.

[billfer]

yes and no

I hope you scout your draftees for players that will fit and for the future

By 'fit' I mean a) Comerica Park kinds of guys (like a Granderson)
and by need and b) need right now First base power hitter is a need
... This isn't a criticism of Cabrera, but I see him as a DH. (I wouldn't draft a lot of center fielders right now)

That said... there are probably several players that have shown they don't fit... (guys who like to punch their teammates,) and you trade them... And occasionally you trad Cameron Maybin because what you can get.. I wouldn't make a habit of it

What is a Comerica Park kind of guy? Granderson would seem to be the type of player you'd want in any partk. I don't think he's necessarily more valuable in Detroit.

Comerica suppresses doubles so I'm not sure you want gap hitters. And it's become more neutral for homers. So what is a Comerica Park kind of guy?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Missed your point --- who are all the first basemans

and Cabrera has been stellar at first? It hasn't sounded liked that on the radio
... maybe you eyes are better than my ears

Who are the 1st basemen?

1. Cabrera
2. Thames
3. Larish

If you don't think Cabrera is a good long term option at 1st base, then we will have to disagree, because I can't imagine why one would think he is not a good long term option at 1B. As to depth, Cabrera is rarely so hurt as to be unavailable to play. He has appeared in at least 157 games a year the last 4 years. So how much depth do the Tigers really need at 1b?

Also, defense at 1st base is not terribly important. It is far more important to get offense out of the position, because many, if not most, MLB positional players could play first if it necessary to meet the teams needs. But, since you raised the concern over defense, I'd suggest Cabrera is a league average defensive first baseman.

Lastly, you speak of lack of positional depth in the Tigers organization, yet fail to mention catcher. That makes zero sense to me. The Tigers starting catcher is in his mid-30's and is on his last legs. Their back-up has never really embraced the thought of being a full-time catcher, and he is 31. They have a few possible prospects, but they are not ready to step in by any means. So where is your concern over catcher? Or 3B, for that matter? Or starting pitchers?

The fact of the matter is currently the Tigers have far, far more pressing needs (with regards to their farm system) than to bolster their 1B depth via the MLB entry draft.

[Edman85]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed... Because of the dynamics of a trade and this little fact that it takes two to tango, it's impossible and illogical to make a yes/no decision as to whether or not a trade should be made. If the Tigers decide to stand pat, and the Marlins offer up Hanley Ramirez for Edgar Renteria, should they turn it down? If they decide to pick up another piece, but the only offer is Kevin Millwood for Rick Porcello, Justin Verlander, and Miguel Cabrera; should they take it just because they decided to make a trade?

Should they call up Porcello? Fair question, because it is a simple decision that another team does not agree to.

Should Aquilino Lopez move to starting? Again, no other teams have to agree to this. This too is a fair question.

Should the Tigers Stand pat at the trading deadline? The correct answer is it depends on the market and what is offered.

[Edman85]

The fact of the matter is currently the Tigers have far, far more pressing needs (with regards to their farm system) than to bolster their 1B depth via the MLB entry draft.

(I'm quoting this, but it's really directed to LM, who is on ignore and can't be quoted) Furthermore, how many Major league 1B were originally drafted/signed as 1B?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

(I'm quoting this, but it's really directed to LM, who is on ignore and can't be quoted) Furthermore, how many Major league 1B were originally drafted/signed as 1B?

Good question - my guess is without researching it - is that not many high schoolers are, but a fairly large percentage of college players are.

My rationale is based in the observation that most high school teams have limited access to talent (98% or something are basically drawing only local players), so typically a drafted player is the best athlete on his team. As such, it is not uncommon for such a player to play a harder defensive position that what he projects to - because he is his high school team's best option at the harder position. My wife is a family friend with the Royals top pick in the 2007 draft - Mike Moustakas (I met Mike when he was 10). He played for a super great high school team (more than one player drafted in the 1st round in 2007 (!)) - he played shortstop there, but the general consensus is that he does not project to be a MLB shortstop.

Once in college, I strongly suspect this isn't as true as often, but there are certainly a many college guys who played a different position regularly in college than the pros.

[Madmanrick]

I doubt it would take much. It would be a 3 month rental, so they couldn't ask much.

Things have changed the last few years...look at what Pittsburgh was asking for Jack Wilson last year. Most of these teams have seen what other teams are willing to pay for the pieces that can put them over the top and they all want in. Also, keep in mind that Maddux is a proven, MLB player and prospects are just that, prospects. Therefore in the eyes of most GM's they have to get something that will hopefully pan out down the road for proven MLB talent. I think the starting price for Maddux, if he would even waive his no-trade to come to Detroit, would be Porcello or a combination of 2 or 3 or our guys like Thomas, Joyce & Raburn etc. Way too expensive in my mind.

[Madmanrick]

The problem with Garcia is that Boras is his agent and will probably try to get a long term contract. It could end up being very costly for an injury prone pitcher.

I agree, but since he essentially would come at no cost in prospects, I still think the Tigers make a push for him. He may end up wanting too much, but if he'd go for a 2 year contract, with a team option for a 3rd year, I think the Tigers might go for that. Again this is all assuming that his medical & scouting reports are positive. Don't forget that the Tigers not only need an arm for say September, but Rogers is likely gone after this year, so they would need to replace him as well. Garcia also has good relationships with some the other Latino players on the team, so he naturally would be comfortable here.

[Madmanrick]

Ahhhh....I have an answer. Sign Jose Lima. He's only 36 years old and we could have LimaTIME back!

While they're at it they could add Steve Sparks, Dave Mlicki, Hideo Nomo and Jeff Weaver as well, kind of have a retro Comerica Park opening day feel. Those guys are all 43 and under, all they'll need to do is fill them full of HGH and we'd be a lock for the WS!

[Edman85]

Players who THT considers qualified at first base in order of zone rating, listed with their position upon being signed/drafted:

Berkman, CF
Pujols, 3B
Barton, C
Kotchman, 1B
Helton, 1B
Teixeira, 3B
Lee, 1B
A. Gonzalez, 1B
Cabrera, 3B
Howard, 1B
Overbay, 1B
Votto, C
Sexson, 1B
Youkilis, 3B
Gload, OF
Delgado, C
Morneau, C
Pena, 1B
Konerko, C
Fielder, 1B
Giambi, 3B
Millar, 3B
LaRoche, 1B
Jackson, 1B
Garko, C
Loney, 1B
Jacobs, C

So, in total we have:
12 Firstbasemen
7 Catchers
6 Thirdbasemen
2 Outfielders

12 of 27 1B were signed as 1B. On top of that, most of them were first round picks, so it's hard to say they were picked for depth. In short, I'd say it's probably not wise to draft 1B depth, confirming my initial thought that players tend to move to the right on the defensive spectrum on the way up. I'd say it's especially a bad idea when you have a future hall of famer signed for 8 years to use draft picks on players who can only play that position.

[Doctor Detroit]

Players who THT considers qualified at first base in order of zone rating, listed with their position upon being signed/drafted:

Berkman, CF
Pujols, 3B
Barton, C
Kotchman, 1B
Helton, 1B
Teixeira, 3B
Lee, 1B
A. Gonzalez, 1B
Cabrera, 3B
Howard, 1B
Overbay, 1B
Votto, C
Sexson, 1B
Youkilis, 3B
Gload, OF
Delgado, C
Morneau, C
Pena, 1B
Konerko, C
Fielder, 1B
Giambi, 3B
Millar, 3B
LaRoche, 1B
Jackson, 1B
Garko, C
Loney, 1B
Jacobs, C

So, in total we have:
12 Firstbasemen
7 Catchers
6 Thirdbasemen
2 Outfielders

12 of 27 1B were signed as 1B. On top of that, most of them were first round picks, so it's hard to say they were picked for depth. In short, I'd say it's probably not wise to draft 1B depth, confirming my initial thought that players tend to move to the right on the defensive spectrum on the way up. I'd say it's especially a bad idea when you have a future hall of famer signed for 8 years to use draft picks on players who can only play that position.

Good beagling.

[Oblong]

Don't we have Magglio tied up through 2010?

Through 2009 with Club options for 2010 and 2011. They automatically kick in based on plate appearances in 2009 or combined 2008/2009.

[baseball3]

Thanks !!!

That club option will come in nicely!! Cheaper than an alternative replacement with lesser production.

------I think we will need 2 quality starters. Nate needs to be moved and I don't think Bonine will stick as a starter. Therefore, we are in need of a 4 and 5 starter.

Seems like the Twins have very nice starting pitching, how did that happen all of a sudden?

Perkins and last night Baker really look awesome and they are very young with even more upside.

[Oblong]

Funny because I figured those two option years would kill the Tigers but they are not that bad.

$18M for 2010 & $15M for 2011 if Ordonez has:

135 starts or 540 PAs in 2009, or
270 starts or 1,080 PAs in 2008-09

If he doesn't meet those requirements then the club can exercise them at just $15 million for 2010.

[baseball3]

With his production, that price is probably not something that the owner would balk at.

I can see the team taking the option unless Magglio tails off significantly between now and the end of next year..

(after re-reading that, I think I should do a p.s.........of ... D U H !!) I am SUCH a nerd at times!

[reality]

I'll go ahead and make this the 4th year in a row that I say we should acquire Damaso Marte

Be careful what you wish for...

His numbers may look nice...but he is a complete disaster in pressure situations.