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Thread: Bring up Larish

  1. #81
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    Hey Yoda,

    Here's one for you.......

    He's now below the Mendoza line and is not major league ready.

    By the way, if somebody offers you a penny for your thoughts and you give your two cents worth, what happened to the other penny?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    You can find it below the Mendoza line!

    I'm not joking.

    Seriously, just joking, thought I'd go for some fun at the days end. Tigers win today, we ALL should be havin' fun!

    Let's celebrate and move onto tomorrow.

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    I didn't read every post of this thread, but I did want to thow this out there: Sean Casey sucks. Still.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    No, but you can use them to conclude that he won't suck any worse than Monroe was.
    Can you really though?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    No, but you can use them to conclude that he won't suck any worse than Monroe was.
    That is a huge assumption.

    Presently, Maybin is performing at the same level as Monroe offensively, and his defense has certainly been much worse. I like the kid, but he's not ready for the major leagues at this point. That's okay when he's 20-years-old, and has had less than 2 seasons in the minor leagues. I just hope the Tigers correct their mistake by letting him have the development time he needs in the minors next year.
    Last edited by tigersrok; 08-27-2007 at 11:40 AM.

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    I don't think Maybin will ever play another (non-rehab) game in the minor leagues. Management has drank the koolaid in this matter and it's already taken effect.

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    I really wish Raburn would play more. He is more talented than some of the guys trotted out.

    If Larish is being discussed I think Hollimon should also be talked about.

    We should all know by now that just because a guy is on the MLB squad doesn't make him better or more talented than someone who is in AAA/AA (or even A).
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseball3 View Post
    I don't think Maybin will ever play another (non-rehab) game in the minor leagues. Management has drank the koolaid in this matter and it's already taken effect.
    I'm hoping the performances of Maybin and Miller will send a message to management to stop rushing players to the big leagues before they are ready. But I'm really not hopeful that management will somehow buy themselves a clue on this issue. I don't know what they have against players developing in the minor leagues. The "production" that Maybin and Miller are giving the Tigers could be provided by any AAAA player. I hope both begin the season in the minors next year. It's obvious both need a lot more seasonig and development.

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    While you certainly may be correct that they need more seasoning, at least in the case of Miller I would argue that the seasoning he needs is not likely to be provided at the minor league level.

    His raw stuff is simply so good that he doesn't have to improve his command in order to succeed at the minor league level...and that was painfully evident during his time at Erie. He wasn't commanding pitches there, and yet he was completely dominating his competition. The only place in organized baseball where Andrew Miller is currently going to receive adequate competition to force him to improve his command, is at the Major League level.

    Now, Maybin very well could benefit from some additional time in the minor leagues, but I'm afraid he's nearly in the same boat as Miller....by the middle of next season, I think it is relatively safe to assume that he'll be completely out-classing his minor league foes, thus not necessitating further improvement to maintain his success. In very short order, he is going to require the challenge of Major League opponents....sink or swim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigersrok View Post
    I'm hoping the performances of Maybin and Miller will send a message to management to stop rushing players to the big leagues before they are ready. But I'm really not hopeful that management will somehow buy themselves a clue on this issue. I don't know what they have against players developing in the minor leagues. The "production" that Maybin and Miller are giving the Tigers could be provided by any AAAA player. I hope both begin the season in the minors next year. It's obvious both need a lot more seasonig and development.
    Didn't you say the same thing about Verlander and Zumaya before the '06 season?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Microline133 View Post
    While you certainly may be correct that they need more seasoning, at least in the case of Miller I would argue that the seasoning he needs is not likely to be provided at the minor league level.

    His raw stuff is simply so good that he doesn't have to improve his command in order to succeed at the minor league level...and that was painfully evident during his time at Erie. He wasn't commanding pitches there, and yet he was completely dominating his competition. The only place in organized baseball where Andrew Miller is currently going to receive adequate competition to force him to improve his command, is at the Major League level.
    The thing is Andrew Miller has more to improve than just his command. He needs to work on his breaking pitch, the consistency of it. And he needs to develop a change up. I think he would be better served being in the minor leagues, being told to specifically work on his offspeed pitches, and when they improve, he will be recalled to the majors. I really don't want to see the guy become another Bonderman, who 5 years into his big league career hasn't developed that third pitch, and therefore hasn't taken the next step.

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    Why can't guys develop pitches in the major-league level just as well or better than the minors? That's the part of the "rushed" argument that I don't agree with.

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    I think it has far more to do with a pitcher's ability to add that pitch than which level he was pitching at. If you can develop the pitch, it will come at the major league level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Microline133 View Post
    While you certainly may be correct that they need more seasoning, at least in the case of Miller I would argue that the seasoning he needs is not likely to be provided at the minor league level.

    His raw stuff is simply so good that he doesn't have to improve his command in order to succeed at the minor league level...and that was painfully evident during his time at Erie. He wasn't commanding pitches there, and yet he was completely dominating his competition. The only place in organized baseball where Andrew Miller is currently going to receive adequate competition to force him to improve his command, is at the Major League level.

    Now, Maybin very well could benefit from some additional time in the minor leagues, but I'm afraid he's nearly in the same boat as Miller....by the middle of next season, I think it is relatively safe to assume that he'll be completely out-classing his minor league foes, thus not necessitating further improvement to maintain his success. In very short order, he is going to require the challenge of Major League opponents....sink or swim.
    Andrew Miller wasn't really all that dominating, he had a couple of good games after getting called up to Erie, but they could have moved him up to Toledo before coming straight to Detroit. Even if I accept Miller was dominating this year, Maybin certainly wasn't at the place where the minor's weren't a challenge.

    I like it when prospects are thrown into the fire quickly, Miller I agreed with, 3 years of college and a year of minor leagues, plus he's a pitcher. Maybin I think is a different situation, he is looking bad, bad, and I fear this could set back his development. His swings are bad, and his defense is bad, he's overmatched big time. Raburn would be the far better choice right now, in the field and at the plate.

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    I never said Maybin was at that place....but rather that he could be relatively soon, like the middle of next year.

    I don't disagree with any assertion that Maybin was rushed and likely wasn't ready in any fashion for the big leagues, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's that far away from being ready; nor does it really mean its going to alter his developmental clock or ceiling....I just don't have any understanding of where that's coming from. There are cases where it can be true....such as players with weak work ethics who are failing for the first time ever because their natural abilities aren't cutting it at the highest level, or a guy who is emotionally fragile and obviously isn't capable of adjusting to not being the best....but Maybin is neither of those players from what I've gathered, and I have little trepedation about his ability to use these struggles as a learning experience and build from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewave84 View Post
    Why can't guys develop pitches in the major-league level just as well or better than the minors? That's the part of the "rushed" argument that I don't agree with.
    Some pitchers can, but it is harder to do, because it is harder to use weak pitches in games, because the games count for something, whereas minor league records don't matter as much. Miller could throw maybe 15-20 changeups a game in the minors, whereas he can only throw a few for show in the major leagues.

    Plus, there is the whole arbitration clock arguement.

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    Teams are more routinely shying away from mandating that pitchers throw a certain number of each pitch in a game at the minor league level, and in my offline discussions with some coaches, its not being done in Detroit.

    In some discussions with other organizations, there was a mounting belief that there were two negative primary effects of forcing pitchers to throw a certain number of a particular pitch in games. First, the pitchers were obviously struggling and there were effects on confidence. Not just confidence in their ability to win ball games, but also long term effects on confidence in the pitch. When it routinely gets thrown in the dirt or gets tagged to the wall in games, its easy to lose all sense of confidence in the pitch, even if you know you're trying to learn it. Secondly, there were some effects seen on the development of catchers and their game calling. By not allowing them to truly call their game by studying hitters and knowing tendancies, etc., many catchers were struggling to make the strides in game calling that they needed to make at the minor league level.

    More and more teams are relying on the use of bullpen sessions and flat ground sessions to improve the grip, arm speed, spin, release, and command of secondary and tertiary offerings; and the same organizational types that indicated they were shying away from mandated pitches, have reported positive progress with these methods.
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    I don't see on how Miller belongs anywhere else but in the major leagues, and I agree with the machine here, it's the only place where he'll be challenged enough to become better. He has to bring his best stuff, every inning of every game in the big leagues, something I doubt he has to do in the minor leagues. I bet Miller's stuff at about 75% is still good enough to get out most minor league hitters, so exactly how is that helping him get better?

    The only place he'll learn on how to be 100%, is where he needs to be at the top of his game to get hitters out, and that's at the major league level.

    As far as Maybin goes, seriously .. did we all really expect him to just hit the ground running? I didn't, and I guess that's why I am happy thus far...

    Now lets look at two kids, both of whom are playing on contending teams:)

    JUSTIN UPTON

    AT BATS - 70
    AVG - .229
    HR - 1
    2B - 4
    3B - 3
    BB - 5
    SB - 0

    CAMERON MAYBIN

    AT BATS - 22
    AVG - .182
    HR - 1
    2B - 2
    3B - 0
    BB - 1
    SB - 2

    ...with almost 50 at bats more, Upton is doing pretty well, but the average is still pretty low, and I believe he plays everyday, something Maybin doesn't do, but how far off would he be, you all think, when Maybin has those 50 ABs, because I doubt that they are too far behind, just very raw/young.

    In short, I agree with the machine .. these type of kids, the big leagues is the only place they'll be challenged to be as good as they're supposed to be.

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    When looking at Upton's fielding at the Majors so far, obviously he is playing Right Field instead of Left and I haven't seen his routes to balls, but he does have 5 errors already. So he is struggling in the field as much or more than maybin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I think it has far more to do with a pitcher's ability to add that pitch than which level he was pitching at. If you can develop the pitch, it will come at the major league level.

    You're alot more likely, as a pitcher, to try the new changeup or the different breaking pitch or the two seam fastball at the minor league level where the games aren't as meaningful as major league games. Especially for young guys who are still trying to prove themselves. I agree with the Miller assessment regarding he needs the competition. Maybin has hit two sliders over the outside corner over 400 feet. That's enough to convince me he should stay up. That homerun off Clemens and that groundrule double last night on sliders away were simply unbelievable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake View Post
    You're alot more likely, as a pitcher, to try the new changeup or the different breaking pitch or the two seam fastball at the minor league level where the games aren't as meaningful as major league games. Especially for young guys who are still trying to prove themselves.
    I don't disagree, but I think the difference is being exaggerating. Like Micro said, working on things like is is mostly done during bullpen sessions and in the offseason/spring. Bonderman has had plenty of time to work in a 3rd pitch. The fact that he's been in the majors probably doesn't have that much of an effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't disagree, but I think the difference is being exaggerating. Like Micro said, working on things like is is mostly done during bullpen sessions and in the offseason/spring. Bonderman has had plenty of time to work in a 3rd pitch. The fact that he's been in the majors probably doesn't have that much of an effect.

    I tend to disagree with that. I think Bonderman goes with what he knows because he doesn't really have that great feel for pitching like some guys. The minor leagues might have been just the thing for Bonderman in hindsight. Look what's happened the minute the pressure got tough the last month: he hasn't thrown the changeup at all.
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    Larish is up to 26 HR's and 95 RBI's. Larish or Perez??
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake View Post
    Larish is up to 26 HR's and 95 RBI's. Larish or Perez??
    It doesn't matter. Leyland wouldn't play Larish anyway (Vets win out over Lefties in the Leyland System).
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    He had another home run and 4 more RBI's today.

    Finished with 28 HRs and 101 RBIs and an OPS over .900

    He draws a lot a walks; i.e., 87 this year, which for a productive power hitter is a very good sign. His walks to strikeout ratio was also very good for a power hitter. I would like to see him hit for more average. .275 - .280 as a minimum would probably be okay for him in the majors, since he walks so much and has good power.

    The question becomes.

    Since it appears that the Tigers are committed to moving Guillen to 1st base, where does that put Larish since as far as I know that is the only position he can play?

    I think that won't be a problem to resolve until 2009 at the earliest.

    Larish will start next year at Toledo, unless the Tigers trade him, and then we will see how things progress.

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    Larish had a VERY good late July, August and couple days here in Sept.

    He's been hot of late, cutting down on his K's and looking very good both offensively and defensively.

    His stock has risen very much in the last 45+ days.

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    I think Guillen will wind up as the DH. I'm pessimistic about Sheff's return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzaki View Post
    I think Guillen will wind up as the DH. I'm pessimistic about Sheff's return.
    What are we gonna do for shortstop then?

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    The same thing we'd do if Guillen moves to first...trade for one or hope that Worth or Iorg gets ready really ,really fast. I could hang with Guillen at DH, Miguel Tejada at short and giving Larish a shot. The free agent class looks weak at that position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzaki View Post
    The same thing we'd do if Guillen moves to first...trade for one or hope that Worth or Iorg gets ready really ,really fast. I could hang with Guillen at DH, Miguel Tejada at short and giving Larish a shot. The free agent class looks weak at that position.
    Holyman (my nickname for him) started for Toledo today as SS. I think he is first in the pecking order at this point.

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    I always forget about him as a IF prospect...for some reason. I think it has more to do with me than him though

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    Was Renteria in Florida with DD and leyland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStrunz View Post
    Was Renteria in Florida with DD and leyland?
    Yeah, he had the GW hit in Game 7 of the World Series for them.
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  33. #113
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    ok....sign him then.

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    This excerpt from MILB.com,
    24-year-old's big blow increased his league-leading home run and RBI totals to 28 and 101, respectively.
    "Larish's grand slam really broke the game open. There was no question that that was the play of the game," said Walbeck. "And, on a personal level, it was great to see him reach 100 RBIs on the season. He did it in his last at-bat, needing a home run to do it, and came through."
    "Larish is definitely the MVP of our team, and I think he might be the MVP of the league. He and [Akron's] Jordan Brown are both deserving of that."

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    I still think Hollimon is much better suited to play 2B, but, after the year he had, there's no question that he deserves a shot with the big club.

    I think Renteria would be a short-term 1-year answer and Hollimon would be the utility guy.

    I think Rayburn could play 3B or be the starting LF with Maybin being the 4th outfielder to start the season.

    Guillen at 1B

    catcher?----F/A/trade -- NOT Pudge
    Guillen 1B
    Polanco 2B
    Renteria SS
    Rayburn 3B/OF
    Granderson CF
    Maggs RF
    Rayburn/Maybin LF
    Sheffield DH

    bench:
    Maybin
    Hollimon
    Inge
    Rabelo
    Casey
    Thames

    We could trade Larish, Trehern and an outfielder (take your pick of Gorkys, Clevlen, Joyce, Timo or Thomas) to Texas for Saltalamacchia.

    Larish, Trehern and/or the outfielder of your choice could ALL start for the Rangers in '08, they are in need of those positions and NOW! This way, Laird could remain their primary catcher.
    Last edited by baseball3; 09-04-2007 at 01:05 AM.

  36. #116
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    Rinse, lather, repeat...
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  37. #117
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    This team organization needs more TFUSA guys. I simply cannot say that enough.

    Why in the flying fornication of penguins would we keep Maybin up as a 4th OFer?
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  38. #118
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    So he could LEARN how to catch a fly ball and take routs. I DIDN'T say that he'd be MY 4th outfielder, I think this is what will happen ONLY due to the fact that I don't see DD having Maybin in the minors any more. I think Maybin should start out in Erie next year and play a hundred or more games there injury free. However, DD will do differently.

    Why don't we go after a decent catching prospect (To He** with the fact that TFUSA alumni are involved, this is about WINNING, no matter who the player is), move Inge to utility player along with Hollimon and fix our problems with Raburn (this guy can HIT) at 3B, go get a short term fix at SS, move the offensively productive Guillen to 1B and then work on the pitching staff. We don't need Pudge at an additonal $10M option, he's diminishing and it shows even to fans who don't understand that he can no longer CATCH effectively at 95+MPH and dang sure can't hit a fastball above 92 anymore.

    What's wrong with this?

    This is NOT about TFUSA, this is about Detroit and winning.................

  39. #119
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    Salty is not the only catching prospect out there and I doubt Texas parts with him for quite some time. If it is not about TFUSA alumni then please start talking about some other catchers out there. Salty is not the only person who is a capabale catcher (and further more, is probably one of the most likely to be moved). I would say Laird and Tegarden are more likley to be moved than Slaty is.

    Maybin can learn all of that stuff in Erie and Toledo. If he is not starting in the MLB next year he needs to not be in the MLB next year. I am betting DD realizes that this is the best path.
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  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigercub33 View Post
    Salty is not the only catching prospect out there and I doubt Texas parts with him for quite some time. If it is not about TFUSA alumni then please start talking about some other catchers out there. Salty is not the only person who is a capabale catcher (and further more, is probably one of the most likely to be moved). I would say Laird and Tegarden are more likley to be moved than Slaty is.

    Maybin can learn all of that stuff in Erie and Toledo. If he is not starting in the MLB next year he needs to not be in the MLB next year. I am betting DD realizes that this is the best path.
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