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12-04-2012, 03:30 PM #1
Illitch proposes downtown arena, arts district
"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~ Tom Clark
12-04-2012, 03:55 PM #2
I love it. And if Illitch is willing to pay for a good portion of it, which it seems he is, I think it's a great move. Myself, I would vote for the "Just west of Woodward and north of I-75" site. I like the idea of having all the fields/arenas kind of right there in the same area.2013 AAT: Justin Verlander - 2011 AL MVP and Cy Young Winner
2013 AAL: Riley Reiff;
Record While I'm In Attendance (Career) Tigers: 8-2, Whitecaps: 16-7, GVSU Football: 67-7
12-04-2012, 04:05 PM #3
12-04-2012, 09:20 PM #4
Won't happen, City Council will stonewall just like they have for almost a decade now with the Cobo deal.
12-05-2012, 08:13 AM #5
A Senate Fiscal Agency analysis said the bill “would reduce both state School Aid Fund revenue and local tax revenue by an unknown amount.”
I'd be curious to see some numbers and where the funding sources are coming from before I'd get excited about this."If you're committed enough, you can make any story work. I once convinced a woman that I was Kevin Costner and it worked... because I believed it!" - Saul Goodman
12-05-2012, 11:04 AM #6
That means I would lose my free parking on Woodward for Tigers and Lions games. Boo.
Ah well—OTOH, it won't be operational until at least 2018, I think, so maybe by that time I'll be too old to park over half a mile away and hike it to save twenty bucks.
12-05-2012, 11:49 AM #7
I agree with the majority of what you just wrote, but to stick up for THAT council is something I will never do. They have been handcuffing the city for decades."And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."
12-05-2012, 12:36 PM #8MotownSports Fan
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I'm pretty sure most of the businesses around the stadiums are doing much better than they would be otherwise.
12-05-2012, 11:58 PM #9
Individual neighborhoods adjacent to cities often can be revitalized due to stadiums being built, but the bigger issue should be how it helps the city as a whole. Now, once again, I can't make a judgment until I see the numbers, but there's nothing wrong with a little healthy skepticism towards public financing of stadiums and arenas.
Last edited by mtutiger; 12-06-2012 at 12:02 AM."If you're committed enough, you can make any story work. I once convinced a woman that I was Kevin Costner and it worked... because I believed it!" - Saul Goodman
12-06-2012, 12:04 AM #10
Semi-related note... Deadspin had an article with some facts about public financing issues recently.
Animated Infographic: Watch As America's Stadiums Pile Up On The Backs Of Taxpayers Through The Years
Stadium data from 1909-2003 come from the fantastic research of Judith Grant Long at Rutgers University. Data since 2003 come from a variety of sources collected by the author, including some compiled by the Minnesota Convention, Leisure & Tourism Association.
There's a lot in here, but these are some key takeaways:
These 186 stadiums cost $53.0 billion in 2012 dollars, of which $32.2 billion—or 61 percent—was publicly financed. That's a shitload of taxpayer money.
Public financing of stadiums is not a new development; it began with the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, which opened in 1923. Los Angeles was also the first city to devise a more complex public/private-funding mix: Dodgers Stadium was 25 percent publicly funded in 1962.
The mid-century urban-renewal movement led to a major boom in ugly stadium construction, most of it publicly funded. From 1956 to 1976, 50 stadiums were built—2.4 per year—at a cost of $10.8 billion in 2012 dollars, with 75 percent coming from the public. In the previous 47 years only 27 stadiums had gone up, at a cost of $1.0 billion, with 47 percent coming from the public. By 1957 more public money had been spent on stadiums than private, and it's stayed that way ever since.
Recessions are bad for the stadium business. In the 10 years from 1977 to 1986, during which span the country fell into a double-dip recession, only six stadiums were built, at a cost of $1.0 billion, of which 90 percent was public.
The 1990s and early 2000s, on the other hand, were absolutely insane. From 1991 to 2004, a whopping 78 stadiums—5.6 per year—were built or underwent major renovation. This came to a cost of $26.0 billion (61 percent public).
While stadium growth has slowed since then—only 18 stadiums built since 2004—private funding (53 percent) has actually surpassed public funding for the first time in decades. This is largely due to four mega-projects: Cowboys Stadium, new Yankees Stadium, Barclays Center, and MetLife Stadium. Combined, those projects cost $5.4 billion, of which $4.5 billion was private (83 percent)."If you're committed enough, you can make any story work. I once convinced a woman that I was Kevin Costner and it worked... because I believed it!" - Saul Goodman
12-06-2012, 12:46 AM #11
Mtutiger is absolutely right about skepticism towards public finacncing of arenas and stadiums. In fact I'm way past healthy skepticism and have jaded cynicism. This is a pet topic of mine. The inflated claims and faulty projections with respect to financial spinoffs are embarrassingly bad. Even worse in cases when respected firms such as the Big 4 accountants put their names on glowing reports when they obviously know better.
12-06-2012, 12:49 AM #12
Btw, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I realized that Mtutiger autocorrects to "nuttier" on my iPad. Sorry, I found that amusing, ha.
12-06-2012, 10:18 AM #13
The way I see it, building a stadium, even at the expense of taxpayers...even though I am not a fan of taxpayer stadiums to begin with, does nothing BUT promote growth.
I am a fan of some of the theories of trickle down economics....to Quote George Reisman:
"There is only the fact that capital accumulation and economic progress depend on saving and innovation and that these in turn depend on the freedom to make high profits and accumulate great wealth.""And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."
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