2009 Red Wings off-season thread.

[Shinma]

Ok, I think one day of mourning the loss in the Finals is good enough. So, lets get started on the off-season thread.

The UFA's and last year's salary are:
Hossa (7.45)
Samuelsson (1.2)
Chelios (0.75)
Conklin (0.75)
Kopecky (0.525)
Downey (0.575)
McCarty (0.5)

Hudler (1.15) and Leino (0.875) are both RFA's, and I would expect them both to be resigned.

As for the UFA list, it wouldn't hurt me at all to see none of them resigned. We all know Helm will be a Wing all year next year. Ericsson is likely too. The other Griffins I'd expect to see are Abdelkader and possibly Leino.

[Vonlenska]

As per the rumors I'm expecting Hossa to re sign long term.

Sammy, Downey, McCarty and Chelios are all goners.

[sparty]

I couldnt agree with you move Vonlenska, plus Kopecky

[MrStrunz]

Sign John Madden or Mike Knuble and for defense go with Bouwmeister.All UFA'S

[pjk49202]

I'm kind of torn. Either sign Hossa and bring Kindl in the fold. Or, sign Boumeister and let Hossa go. Hossa was a big disappointment in the Finals. But, he is an elite level player and it's hard to let someone like that go. Before he went to Pitt last year, he didn't do anything in the playoffs before. Boumeister, is a player that is going to be a great one and I wonder if he would be interested in coming to Detroit. Let's face it, Lidstrom isn't going to play forever and having him, Ericcson, Kindl in the fold for defense would be pretty awesome. Draper won't retire until his contract is up so he isn't going anywhere. I hope that Maltby see's light and doesn't come back. Have to resign Leino and give the youngs some time. They deserve it! The lost in the SCF sucks, and personally I have not looked at a single picture of the pens with the cup. It was a perfect storm for them and they took advantage. Next year the Wings will be right in the mix and I think they will be able to do damage next year.

[holygoat]

Mike Valenti described the Hossa situation perfectly: for the Red Wings, he's a luxury, not a necessity. Defensive depth is more important to this team than another front line winger, IMO, and I hope they use that money accordingly. Also, at some point they're going to have to pay a first-string goaltender real NHL money, and locking Hossa up long term could make that problematic considering how many long term deals they are already locked into.

[Motor City Sonics]

Originally Posted by sparty

I couldnt agree with you move Vonlenska, plus Kopecky

Nope, I think Kopecky stays. He was playing really well at the end of the regular season and I think he'll recover from his injury. The others are probably gone. And I think Leino is going to get a really good offer from someone that the Wings can't or won't match.


I think the biggest issues is - Hossa's long-term deal. I don't think a bad finals should stop them from keeping him.

Other issues are:

Who goes to make room for Helm and Abdelkader as regulars next year?

Is Jakob Kindl ready to be a regular everyday defenseman? I think Ericsson is and that's obvious. Kindl won't be up unless he's a top six. Right now that top six is Lidstrom-Rafalski-Kronwall-Stuart-Lebda-Ericsson with Meech and Lilja off the bench.

If they don't sign Conklin, who will be goalie 1-A in the regular season next year? Ain't gonna be Jimmy Howard and they won't call up Daniel Larsson to sit in 60% of the games.


Other than that, what could you gripe about. The season went down to the last furious second. Don't need to screw with it too much.


My team would look something like this

8 Abdelkader
11 Cleary
13 Datsyuk
17 Ritola
18 Maltby
26 Hudler
27 Emmerton
33 Draper
40 Zetterberg
43 Helm
51 Filpula
81 Hossa
82 Kopecky
93 Franzen
96 Holmstrom

3 Lilja
4 Kindl
5 Lidstrom
14 Meech
22 Lebda
23 Stuart
28 Rafalski
38 Kolosov
52 Ericsson
55 Kronwall

30 Osgood
29 Conklin
32 Pearce
31 Larsson

[Motor City Sonics]

Originally Posted by holygoat

Mike Valenti described the Hossa situation perfectly: for the Red Wings, he's a luxury, not a necessity. Defensive depth is more important to this team than another front line winger, IMO, and I hope they use that money accordingly. Also, at some point they're going to have to pay a first-string goaltender real NHL money, and locking Hossa up long term could make that problematic considering how many long term deals they are already locked into.

I think Ozzie is their No. 1 for the next two years and by then they'll commit to McCollum, Larsson or make a deal for that No. 1. I don't think its gonna be a decision they need to make now. That defense with Lidstrom and Rafalski is gonna get old really quick. But when they leave they will open up a lot of salary cap space for a goalie. For the defense - How good are Ericsson and Kindl? Is Kronwall a top two? Sometimes he looks like it, other times he is a disaster and he's had a lot of health issues.

[Kdoogie24]

Originally Posted by pjk49202

Boumeister, is a player that is going to be a great one and I wonder if he would be interested in coming to Detroit.

He is already a great player, and I think every GM knows it. He will likely get the same type of contract that Campbell got in Chicago (which he DOES NOT deserve, but thats another topic). Something like 3-5 years with 6-8 a year is what Jay will get. I dont think Detroit is going to shell that out, even though I still love the idea of having Bouwmeister here.

[DennisDubay]

I think signing Hossa long-term handicaps us long term. I say pass.

[Vonlenska]

You guys DO remember that Hossa scored 40 goals, right? If they can sign Hossa long term (which they will be able to do, guaranteed) they definitely should do it. If that Kronwall shot goes in and the Wings win, everyone would be saying "oh, he had a average playoff, but we won the cup bring him back!"

Of course losing him wouldn't be a tragedy, but I'd prefer to keep him.

[Shinma]

Word is that Leino will refuse a minor league contract, but Babs doesn't mind as he plans to have a spot on the Wings for him. Babs also said that Abdelkader will play another season in GR, or atleast start there... and Conklin hopes to stay in Detroit.

[Tramfan]

Kindl is likely a year away. Emmerton is likely two years away. I'd love to resign Hossa regardless as this would give the Red Wings three of the best two way players in the league for many seasons and what could possibly be wrong with that?

It's too bad Abdelkader won't take ice minutes formaly occupied by an aging Maltby, but the Wings won't cut ties prematurely with the loyal vets imo. I wouldn't be too suprised if Hudler received bigger money somewhere else.

[lordstanley]

Sign Hossa. I bet the Pens are glad that they didn't give up on Malkin after he was a no-show in the 2008 SCF, I don't think the Pens will dump Crosby despite only 3 pts in this year's SCF, and I don't think Datsyuk will be cut by the Wings despite scoring only 1 goal in this year's playoffs. Hossa's market value is less than if he had had a fantastic playoffs, and he will take less than market value. The "depth" that we'd have to give up in Hudler or Samuelsson or even Holmstrom did next to nothing after the 2nd round. I am a little bit worried about 3 years from now when we'll need to pay a goalie to replace Ozzie, but there are lots of unknowns regardless once you get a year or two out.

PK aside, our D is Ok and should be until Lidstrom and later Rafalski are finished - we can use their cap money then on a new defenseman.

[Vonlenska]

Excellent post, LS.

[Elevate]

I'm really on the fence about re-signing Hossa. I don't think I will be too upset either way.

I want to see Helm, Leino, Abdelkader, Ericcsson & Kindl up with the team all season. Sammy, Hudler, Chelios & McCarty should not be re-signed. Kopecky & Conklin should be re-signed for 2-3 year (preferrably cheap) deals. This doesn't leave many holes in the roster, but I'm sure Kenny will still be interested in the market this offseason.

Free Agents I wouldn't mind seeing in a Red Wings jersey next season:

Henrik Sedin
Maxim Afinogenov
Mike Cammalleri
Jay Boumeester
Francois Beauchemin

[Vonlenska]

The Sedins come as a package.

[lordstanley]

Yeah, the Sedin Sisters are just odd. The fact that they'll only play for the same team says lots, IMO, and not in a good way. I mean, you can like your brother and all but at some point adolescent summer camp is over and it's time to branch out on your own if you have to.

Bummer, I just realized I probably need to change my avatar. Sometimes it is little moments like this, a few days after the fact, that you realize that the Cup has been lost.

[holygoat]

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

You guys DO remember that Hossa scored 40 goals, right? If they can sign Hossa long term (which they will be able to do, guaranteed) they definitely should do it. If that Kronwall shot goes in and the Wings win, everyone would be saying "oh, he had a average playoff, but we won the cup bring him back!"

Of course losing him wouldn't be a tragedy, but I'd prefer to keep him.

Yes, I'm well aware of the season Hossa had for the Wings, and my opinion that he should probably not be resigned is unrelated to that. Detroit has already locked up Zetterberg (through 20/21), Franzen (through19/20) and Datsyuk (through 13/14), not to mention Cleary and Filpulla through 12/13. That's a solid, young offensive core. The Wings lucked into getting Hossa when, in a way, they really had no right getting him. He's a luxury to Detroit, not a necessity.

I'm sure he'd take discount to stay in Detroit long term, but I don't think it will be such a discount as to not hinder the Wings' ability to manage cap vs. corps with respect to defense and goalie in the long term. Unless Holland is planning on going with Ozzy for two to three more years, then handing it over to one of the relatively low-paid younger guys for another three years -- after which they'll either need to get paid, or Detroit will need to find a number 1 net minder -- I don't know how we can afford him. Would Hossa even take a deal as short as five years in duration? If he could be convinced to take a deal no longer than four years, go for it. Otherwise, it's just buying more cherries for the sundae when you're getting low on meat and veggies.

If this were the pre-cap era where it would just be a matter of cutting the check, I'd be all for it, but there are more implications to having so many long-term deals on one payroll these days. God help us if something bad happens to Hank or Franzen -- or BOTH -- in the next couple of years.

[Ballpark Frank]

Originally Posted by lordstanley

Sign Hossa. I bet the Pens are glad that they didn't give up on Malkin after he was a no-show in the 2008 SCF, I don't think the Pens will dump Crosby despite only 3 pts in this year's SCF, and I don't think Datsyuk will be cut by the Wings despite scoring only 1 goal in this year's playoffs. Hossa's market value is less than if he had had a fantastic playoffs, and he will take less than market value. The "depth" that we'd have to give up in Hudler or Samuelsson or even Holmstrom did next to nothing after the 2nd round. I am a little bit worried about 3 years from now when we'll need to pay a goalie to replace Ozzie, but there are lots of unknowns regardless once you get a year or two out.

PK aside, our D is Ok and should be until Lidstrom and later Rafalski are finished - we can use their cap money then on a new defenseman.

Thankfully someone has sense.

[Johnny Mac]

A few things

1. The people saying lets not sign Hossa and sign a guy like Bouwmeester, thats not going to happen. If we dont sign Hossa, we are likely going to use that money and sign Hudler and Sammy to raises and we would probably play with 23 players next year so add another 800,000 or so because we only kept 22 on roster last year because of cap problems. Hossa said he would take less money to play here so if we signed someone else instead of him with that money we would still lose Sammy and Hudler and have most likely a worse player than Hossa to get someone in the same money.

2. the people saying we need to add a defenseman with that money look at this.
Lidstrom - 7.4
Rafalski - 6
Stuart - 3.75
Kronwall - 3
Ericsson - 900,000

If we went out and signed another top end defenseman we would have a ridiculous amount of our cap tied up in defenseman. We already have 5 defenseman locked in spots next year and that doesnt include Lilja or Lebda. I wouldn't mind finding a 6th dman to replace one of those 2 but you dont go spend top dollar to add a guy when you are already paying four defenseman 3+ mil and two of them are over 6.

3. Hossa is getting a bad rap because the pressure on him for playing his old team in the finals. Its not like he was the only one not scoring. He somehow in one postseason has gotten the rap of cant play in the playoffs and I dont get it. Last year I thought he was the best playoff performer on a team that ended up 2 wins short of the cup. Look at these numbers

Hossa - 98 games 31 goals 45 assists 76 pts
Datsyuk - 98 games 22 goals 41 assists 63 pts

Id take Hossa on my team anyday, especially at a discount. I hope they can get it done at the rumored amount of somewhere in the Franzen type contract range.

[holygoat]

Let me be clear here, I am not advocating going after Bouwmeester or any other very long term player, because I think Detroit currently has about as much money tied up in long term deals as they can realistically handle.

I also don't think the the Datsyuk comparison has anything to do with the discussion, because it's not a matter of choosing between one or the other -- Datsyuk's already here, and he's not going anywhere. I happen to think that Datsyuk is more important in that he is the better play maker, but that's beside the point. They're both elite forwards.

I'd love to keep Hossa, but I just don't know how much money one team can tie up in long term deals without getting bitten in the *** at some point. It would be nice to have some money to play with at the trade deadline in the event of a catastrophic injury to a top line player.

[KleShreen]

Here's a good list...

Top 30 NHL Free Agents

Top 30 NHL Free Agents

Player	Position	2008 Club	2008 Salary	Age
Jay Boumeester	D	Florida	4.8M	25
Marian Hossa	RW	Detroit	7.5M	30
Marian Gaborik	RW	Minnesota	7.5M	27
Daniel Sedin	LW	Vancouver	3.5M	28
Henrik Sedin	C	Vancouver	3.5M	28
Mike Cammalleri	RW	Calgary	3.6M	27
Martin Havlat	RW	Chicago	6M	28
Mike Komisarek	D	Montreal	1.9M	27
Alex Tanguay	RW	Montreal	5.3M	28
Nikolai Khabibulin	G	Chicago	6.7M	36
Mattias Ohlund	D	Vancouver	3.5M	32
Brian Gionta	RW	New Jersey	4M	30
Saku Koivu	C	Montreal	4.7M	34
Derek Morris	D	New York R	3.9M	30
Alex Kovalev	RW	Montreal	4.5M	36
Todd Bertuzzi	RW	Calgary	1.9M	34
Nik Antropov	C	New York R	2.1M	29
Erik Cole	LW	Carolina	4M	30
Mikael Sameulsson	RW	Detroit	1.2M	32
Johnny Odyua	D	New Jersey	600K	27
Dennis Seidenberg	D	Carolina	1.2M	27
Keith Tkachuk	C	St. Louis	4.5M	37
Bill Guerin	LW	Pittsburgh	4.5M	38
Rob Scuderi	D	Pittsburgh	725K	30
Robert Lang	C	Montreal	4M	38
Samuel Pahlsson	C	Chicago	1.4M	31
Chris Neil	RW	Ottawa	1.2M	30
Mike Knuble	RW	Philadelphia	2.8M	37
Francois Beauchemin	D	Anaheim	1.6M	29
Christian Backman	D	Columbus	3.4M	29

Not gonna lie, I would like to see Chris Neil on the team for just someone we can roll out to put up with all the cheap shots we end up taking. I'd rather have someone do that than allow our stars to be out there getting hurt.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by holygoat

Let me be clear here, I am not advocating going after Bouwmeester or any other very long term player, because I think Detroit currently has about as much money tied up in long term deals as they can realistically handle.

I also don't think the the Datsyuk comparison has anything to do with the discussion, because it's not a matter of choosing between one or the other -- Datsyuk's already here, and he's not going anywhere. I happen to think that Datsyuk is more important in that he is the better play maker, but that's beside the point. They're both elite forwards.

I'd love to keep Hossa, but I just don't know how much money one team can tie up in long term deals without getting bitten in the *** at some point. It would be nice to have some money to play with at the trade deadline in the event of a catastrophic injury to a top line player.

If the Wings have a catastrophic injury to a top player, they would be in the same boat as any other team that have a catastrophic injury to a top player. Screwed. Doesn't mean you don't sign a top player when one is available.

In fact, I'd suggest the best way to protect against the downside of an injury to a top player is to have a deep team with as many top players as possible. Signing Hossa would help accomplish that. I'd further suggest that keeping money back to be able to make a splash at the trade deadline should injuries plague a team seems a bit like trading a bird in hand for two in the bush. The is no guarantee of an injury nor is there any guarantee a top player would be available come trade deadline, to say nothing of the prospects the team would have to give up.

As to having too many long term deals...well, to my point of view, long term deals bite a team in the butt most often in two cases:

a) a team reaches for a player to fill what they perceive is an immediate need, and pay a OK to good player like an elite one, or

b) a team acquires a guy on the downside of his career.

I am not sure either case applies to Marian.

[Johnny Mac]

also if injuries did occur, the players salary would not count against the cap and you could get someone at the deadline still. and in the playoffs there is no cap so you could have the injured player back. Thats how Calgary got Jokinen because they had cap space from injured players.

[holygoat]

So how many years are you willing to give Hossa? Remember, what you can't pay him in yearly salary, you'll have to make up in total contract years. This is Hossa's last big contract, and even if he's willing to take the Red Wing discount, he's still going to want something close to his market value.

Someone suggested signing him to a Franzen-type deal. Is that what you guys want? Another guy locked up for the next 11 years -- for Hossa, that means until he's 42? Because that's probably what it would take to get him to sign with Detroit, and for probably more overall money. So what's the line, in terms of years, that you'd not cross when crafting a long-term deal for Hossa? For me that number is five, and I don't think that's going to get it done. If they can get him for that, I'm all for it, though.

[Johnny Mac]

Originally Posted by holygoat

So how many years are you willing to give Hossa? Remember, what you can't pay him in yearly salary, you'll have to make up in total contract years. This is Hossa's last big contract, and even if he's willing to take the Red Wing discount, he's still going to want something close to his market value.

Someone suggested signing him to a Franzen-type deal. Is that what you guys want? Another guy locked up for the next 11 years -- for Hossa, that means until he's 42? Because that's probably what it would take to get him to sign with Detroit, and for probably more overall money. So what's the line, in terms of years, that you'd not cross when crafting a long-term deal for Hossa? For me that number is five, and I don't think that's going to get it done. If they can get him for that, I'm all for it, though.

would you rather have him at 9 years or so for around 4 mil or 5 years at about 6 a year?

[holygoat]

If you can get Hossa for 6 Mil/5 years you you sign the deal before he comes to his senses.

[Porcelain God]

Originally Posted by holygoat

If you can get Hossa for 6 Mil/5 years you you sign the deal before he comes to his senses.

Just a guess, but I would guess that Hossa's number is 7 at least. Based on what the Wings can offer annually anyway.

[Johnny Mac]

Originally Posted by Porcelain God

Just a guess, but I would guess that Hossa's number is 7 at least. Based on what the Wings can offer annually anyway.

if he gets signed to a long term deal, its going to be lower than 7. It would be lower than Zetterberg's 6.08 too im pretty sure of that. If he is chasing the big bucks he wont be a Wing, but he has said repeatedly he will take less to stay.

[Johnny Mac]

Red Wings general manager Ken Holland waits on salary cap to determine necessary roster moves - Detroit Red Wings Hockey: News, Blogs, Photos, Audio, Schedule & Stats - MLive.com

those asking for defense help

Holland said his defense is in place. The top seven are Lidstrom, Rafalski, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart, Jonathan Ericsson, Brett Lebda and Lilja, whose future remains a bit murky due to persistent headaches.

[holygoat]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

if he gets signed to a long term deal, its going to be lower than 7. It would be lower than Zetterberg's 6.08 too im pretty sure of that. If he is chasing the big bucks he wont be a Wing, but he has said repeatedly he will take less to stay.

That's why I'm trying to define "long term" here. I don't think you get him for 5 years at $6 Million per year, no matter how you space the money out.

[Elevate]

Let Hudler walk, get Afinogenov!

[Johnny Mac]

Originally Posted by holygoat

That's why I'm trying to define "long term" here. I don't think you get him for 5 years at $6 Million per year, no matter how you space the money out.

I am not saying you would, I was trying to make a point. That wasnt the long term contract in that situation either. My point was would you rather have him 4-5 years or a normal length contract for a cap hit about 2 mil a year higher or for 9-10 years with a 2 mil or so lower cap hit?

[holygoat]

I still take the shorter deal.

[Rob from Canton]

I want to see Hossa come back, he is an elite player. The poor playoff showing might let the Wings get lucky and get him in the $5.5MM range.

I also want Samuelsson back. He is very skilled for what he was being paid. If the Wings can get him a little cheaper Id take him.

Unless something incredible happens I think this will be the last season of Draper and Maltby. Abdelkader in the minors for another season is a good idea, its how the Wings have been so successful. They allow young players more time to develop. Holland obviously thinks Abdelkader is going to be more than just a 4th line energy guy. Two seasons from now you have Abdelkader and Helm replacing Draper and Maltby and hopefully they are even better.

Im not sure its time to start cleaning house and I think if Hossa resigns we can add some gritty veteran forwards at a very reasonable price and be fine.

[Higginson]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

Red Wings general manager Ken Holland waits on salary cap to determine necessary roster moves - Detroit Red Wings Hockey: News, Blogs, Photos, Audio, Schedule & Stats - MLive.com

those asking for defense help

I know but I want Komisarek

[azzurri]

Hossa had a poor SCF and a subpar playoffs in total, no doubt about it. But, I remember years when guys like Yzerman and Federov were criticized as not being able to get things done in the playoffs. Sign Hossa, assuming he follows thru on his promise to accept less to stay with the Wings. 40 goal scorers don't come around often.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by holygoat

That's why I'm trying to define "long term" here. I don't think you get him for 5 years at $6 Million per year, no matter how you space the money out.

How about:

Year 1: $7 mill
Year 2: $7 mill
Year 3: $8 mill
Year 4: $7 mill
Year 5: $6 mill
Year 6: $6 mill
Year 7: $5 mill
Year 8: $3 mill
Year 9: $1 mill
Year 10: $1 mill

That's a 10 year contract paying a Cap-Average of $5.1 mill per year. And little money at ages 38, 39, & 40. So a decision to just CUT him at any point late in the contract - for Age/ Under-performance reasons - has little cap impact, and at a point where the overall cap would be much higher anyways. BTW: That is also a possible scenario that may happen with Franzen and Zetterberg...

BTW2: He's paid a pretty good salary from ages 31-36, and then it (his salary) starts to decline, with his age. Also, is he not able to renogotiate the contract in the later stages, if he is stil performing at a high level?

I don't see anything unfair with this contract, for either side.

Feel free to make some adjustments to my #'s, if anyone feels it necessary...

[lordstanley]

Chelios gave the Wings a good decade, but it comes as a relief to me that the Wings confirmed today he's not in their plans for next year. He still wants to play somewhere, but I don't think he's effective enough to play for any playoff team. From Ted Kulfan in the Detroit News:

Monday, June 22, 2009
Red Wings will not re-sign Chris Chelios
Ted Kulfan / The Detroit News

Detroit -- Chris Chelios will not be returning to the Red Wings.

General manager Ken Holland met with Chelios Monday afternoon and, as expected, gave him the news Chelios will not be re-signed.

"It was kind of understood last summer, after Cheli signed, that the 2008-09 season would be the last one for Cheli as a Red Wing," said Holland, noting the need for the Wings to bring in younger players. "He wants to play another season and I believe he can still play."

Chelios, 47, was not available for comment. Chelios said late in the regular season he didn't expect to be re-signed by the Wings, but wants to continue playing somewhere in the NHL.

Holland said Chelios was a terrific addition to the Red Wings organization, after being acquired at the 1999 trade deadline.

"Just a perfect role model for young players," Holland said. "His dedication to the game is extraordinary."

Holland also said he expects to talk with agents for Marian Hossa, Mikael Samuelsson, Ty Conklin and Tomas Kopecky this weekend in Montreal during the NHL Entry Draft.