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  1. #1
    DaBishop's Avatar
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    Default Memo Okur retired today




    Letting him go was one of the worst moves Dumars made...particularly because it was in favor of keeping Sheed. Turned into a really good player and would have loved to see him have that career in the D.
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    Mr. Bigglesworth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBishop View Post
    Letting him go was one of the worst moves Dumars made...particularly because it was in favor of keeping Sheed. Turned into a really good player and would have loved to see him have that career in the D.
    I don't think it was nearly as bad a move as you suggest, if for no other reason Joe has made a bunch of worse moves in recent years.

    I always liked him as a player, and was sad to see him go.

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    I didn't like seeing him go either, but one of the things that drove me crazy with Sheed was his unwillingness to play in the paint, particularly on the offensive side of the court - taking threes all the dang time. Didn't Okur kind of have the same issues?
    "Only Lions fans can predict a victory when their starting quarterback has a broken arm." -unknown

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    Okur drew fouls, rebounded, and took three's...and wasn't a club house cancer.

    Bigg's...he's made worse moves, but I think that move cost us at least one more title, if not two.
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    Nastradamus is offline MotownSports Fan
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    No way I'd have kept him instead of Sheed. He was the same offensive player, MUCH worse on D and had injury issues. One of Joe's best moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    No way I'd have kept him instead of Sheed. He was the same offensive player, MUCH worse on D and had injury issues. One of Joe's best moves.
    Agree 100%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBishop View Post
    Letting him go was one of the worst moves Dumars made...particularly because it was in favor of keeping Sheed. Turned into a really good player and would have loved to see him have that career in the D.
    We let him go and made it to game 7 of the NBA finals the next year. I think we were just fine without Okur. He was a decent player, but nowhere near the skill level of Rasheed. Yes, Rasheed could be lazy and temperamental, but Okur was not even half the player Sheed was.

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    Memo's per 36mins
    2004-5 16.5 Pts 47% FG, 1 3PA, 27% 3P, 85% FT, 6 FTA, 2.6 Ast, 1.1 Blks, .5 Steals, 3 ORB, 6.6 DRB, 2.2 TOV PER 18.9
    2005-6 18.0, 46%, 2.9 3PA, 34% 3P, 78% FT, 5.5 FTA, 2.4 A, .9 B, .5 S, 2.6 ORB, 6.5 DRB, 2 TOV PER 19.0
    Sheed's 2003-4 per 36 mins
    2004-5 15.3 Pts 44% FG, 3.7 3PA, 70% FT, 2.6 FTA, 1.9 Asts 1.5 Blks, .9 Steals, 2.3 ORB, 6.3 DRB, 1.7 TOV PER 16.4
    2005-6 15.7, 43%, 5.6 3PA, 36% 3P, 74% FT, 2.4 FTA, 2.4 A1.7 B, 1.1 S, 1.2 ORB 5.9 DRB PER 17.6

    In every statistic you want from a PF, Sheed was a waste. He didn't rebound, he didn't draw fouls, he shot an extremely low percentage even for a guard, and he gave the team no presence under the rim. What was everyone's complaint for every year following the championship season. No rebounding, no inside presence. It wasn't even close which player did a better job at those things.

    All this and there's no question that Sheed was locker room cancer that spread into all the rest of the players while his game declined each year after (those two years were the only ones that were even close from 2006 on it gets more lopsided until injuries start creeping in for Memo) There is no question this team would have been better off keeping Memo over Sheed in my mind.
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    I'd rather have had Memo, Rasheed declined quickly after first putting on the Pistons jersey.

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    If I remember correctly there were seasons with the Pistons that Sheed had more three-point shots than free throws attempted.
    Edit: Well, duh. It was much worse than that.

    He never had a season he attempted more free throws with the Pistons than three-point shots.

    Three-point shots by season
    69, 236, 434, 296, 315, 319 = 1,669
    Free throws attempted by season
    54, 195, 183, 137, 150, 101 = 820

    Try more like two treys tried for every free throw attempted.

    It got so bad his last season be made more three-point shots (113) than he ATTEMPTED free throws (101). Hence, the reason for my signature on the bottom of my page.

    For his career he's now attempted more threes (3170) than free throws (3146). The amazing thing is there was a time in his career he had attempted 1,000+ more free throws than treys. So to make up that difference when the career totals are only in the low 3,000s is pretty incredible. And now he's actually taking more treys than getting defensive rebounds since the start of last year.

    I remember being upset losing Okur, but at the time I would've probably kept Wallace. When he joined this team, it just all of a sudden clicked for this squad. It seems people forget how the team seemed to be wallowing where it had the previous year, but then Sheed came and the team just improved. I think it would be hard to argue the Pistons win that title without Sheed. It's obvious his game took a serious turn for the worse when Larry Brown left. For some reason Okur was in Brown's doghouse as well. He hardly ever played. Of course, some of that had to do with Sheed being here, but it seemed Okur could've gotten more time in many sensible situations and just didn't. Does anyone really know why that was the case? I recall a time in that first year the guy seemed to visually improve week to week.

    I'm sure if I went to my posts at the time, I probably would've loved to keep both, but that wasn't really an option. I really enjoyed watching Okur's progress during that first season. But you could tell Okur was disenchanted with the whole Brown thing by the end of his time here. At the time I don't think the Pistons made a bad choice with Sheed. He did a lot for the Pistons just in the time he was here. Of course, one could argue that what happened with him was just a matter of time. After all, it wasn't like he was the NBA's perfect role model player before he got here. Realizing it probably wouldn't work long term was certainly a credible thought at the time as well. But with Brown here, certainly moving forward with Sheed made sense as well.
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    There is no question that at the time keeping Sheed over Okur made sense and seemed like the right decision, just as at the time it made sense to draft Darko over Wade, or it made sense to trade Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill...it doesn't mean that the GM's did the right thing. Orlando bet on a superstar with injury problems and gave away what became the cornerstone of the Pistons franchise and lost. Dumars bet on superstar who didn't want to be a superstar that didn't want to play his position and was a clubhouse cancer and gave away a player who not only had a better PER all but one year of their remaining careers, but also actually played the position he was supposed to.

    It's the GM's job to see past the obvious call and make the right call. Dumars didn't and the organization paid for it. It's just conjecture but my opinion is that real damage of that choice in the end has nothing at all to do with the on court play that most would point to as a reason that Sheed should have been kept even though the "ball don't lie" and clearly points to Memo being the better player. The real damage was what he turned this team into. He was the ring leader of all the negativity, all the selfishness, all the insubordination, and all the cry-babiness this team turned into.

    Yes, the team turned a corner when Sheed got here, but I think Memo was ready to fill that role on the court and guys like C-Note, Rib and Ben were ready to be the leaders and had the confidence that a championship team needs to compete year in and year out for a title. Maybe 2004 we dont' get to the finals without Sheed(I think we do as weak as the East was and with Wade's injury in the ECF) but I think 2005-6, 2006-7 and 2007-8 we're a better team with a stronger ethic, and better character that gets us to the finals over that Cleveland team no question, and gives us a better chance each and every other year as well.
    Last edited by DaBishop; 11-10-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBishop View Post
    There is no question that at the time keeping Sheed over Okur made sense and seemed like the right decision, just as at the time it made sense to draft Darko over Wade, or it made sense to trade Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill...it doesn't mean that the GM's did the right thing. Orlando bet on a superstar with injury problems and gave away what became the cornerstone of the Pistons franchise and lost. Dumars bet on superstar who didn't want to be a superstar that didn't want to play his position and was a clubhouse cancer and gave away a player who not only had a better PER all but one year of their remaining careers, but also actually played the position he was supposed to.

    It's the GM's job to see past the obvious call and make the right call. Dumars didn't and the organization paid for it. It's just conjecture but my opinion is that real damage of that choice in the end has nothing at all to do with the on court play that most would point to as a reason that Sheed should have been kept even though the "ball don't lie" and clearly points to Memo being the better player. The real damage was what he turned this team into. He was the ring leader of all the negativity, all the selfishness, all the insubordination, and all the cry-babiness this team turned into.

    Yes, the team turned a corner when Sheed got here, but I think Memo was ready to fill that role on the court and guys like C-Note, Rib and Ben were ready to be the leaders and had the confidence that a championship team needs to compete year in and year out for a title. Maybe 2004 we dont' get to the finals without Sheed(I think we do as weak as the East was and with Wade's injury in the ECF) but I think 2005-6, 2006-7 and 2007-8 we're a better team with a stronger ethic, and better character that gets us to the finals over that Cleveland team no question, and gives us a better chance each and every other year as well.
    Comparing Sheed to Okur is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford where the Ferrari is in the shop 95% of time. Sheed *could* be dominant and very occasionally was - certainly more dominant then Okur. The problem was that the dominant Sheed hardly ever showed up and the rest of time he just wasn't all that hot - as his numbers prove. Whether he just couldn't bring that game consistently physically or whether he just wouldn't mentally hardly matters in the end.
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    Nastradamus is offline MotownSports Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBishop View Post
    There is no question that at the time keeping Sheed over Okur made sense and seemed like the right decision, just as at the time it made sense to draft Darko over Wade, or it made sense to trade Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill...it doesn't mean that the GM's did the right thing. Orlando bet on a superstar with injury problems and gave away what became the cornerstone of the Pistons franchise and lost. Dumars bet on superstar who didn't want to be a superstar that didn't want to play his position and was a clubhouse cancer and gave away a player who not only had a better PER all but one year of their remaining careers, but also actually played the position he was supposed to.

    It's the GM's job to see past the obvious call and make the right call. Dumars didn't and the organization paid for it. It's just conjecture but my opinion is that real damage of that choice in the end has nothing at all to do with the on court play that most would point to as a reason that Sheed should have been kept even though the "ball don't lie" and clearly points to Memo being the better player. The real damage was what he turned this team into. He was the ring leader of all the negativity, all the selfishness, all the insubordination, and all the cry-babiness this team turned into.

    Yes, the team turned a corner when Sheed got here, but I think Memo was ready to fill that role on the court and guys like C-Note, Rib and Ben were ready to be the leaders and had the confidence that a championship team needs to compete year in and year out for a title. Maybe 2004 we dont' get to the finals without Sheed(I think we do as weak as the East was and with Wade's injury in the ECF) but I think 2005-6, 2006-7 and 2007-8 we're a better team with a stronger ethic, and better character that gets us to the finals over that Cleveland team no question, and gives us a better chance each and every other year as well.
    Okur did not play in the post and he's a terrible defender. How that is playing the position more than Sheed I can't understand. Sheed was the far superior player. A slight bump in PER is not worth the trade off on the other end of the floor.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister porpoise View Post
    I'd rather have had Memo, Rasheed declined quickly after first putting on the Pistons jersey.
    Yeah, and Memo declined quickly without a Pistons jersey on....and never even got a whiff of smelling the Finals after he left the Pistons...

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rasheed is still more productive at 38 coming off the Knicks bench now, than Memo is at 33 calling it a career....
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