Joe Dumars Shift

**Betrayer** · 06-28-2012, 05:20 PM

Joe Dumars Shift

This is a really good article about Joe D's shift in thinking that took the Pistons from Going to Work to what you have today. I'd argue that the shift started much earlier than this article claims. It started with the hiring of Flip and the departure of Ben as a result. Still though, the points in this article are valid and mirror a lot of what we've talked about here for a while. Joe knee jerked, went a different direction, and yet the NBA never really changed that much. The teams that play great defense are still the ones making deep playoff runs.

As the article states, Joe seems to be coming back to his previous philosophy starting with the hiring of Frank and some of his recent comments. Hopefully that continues and we can once again be proud of the team identity and product they put on the court.

**DTroppens** · 06-28-2012, 06:22 PM

Yeah, I'm right there with you. The loss of Ben and the hiring of Flip was the change of the team's identity and the beginning of the end.

I'm a firm believer of having one imposed will that most of your decisions funnel through. The Flip era was the changing of that imposed will and the changing to either a failed imposed will or one that was very hard to determine.

**Truth** · 06-28-2012, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by DTroppens

Yeah, I'm right there with you. The loss of Ben and the hiring of Flip was the change of the team's identity and the beginning of the end.

I'm a firm believer of having one imposed will that most of your decisions funnel through. The Flip era was the changing of that imposed will and the changing to either a failed imposed will or one that was very hard to determine.

Ben was done and Brown had gone nuts (as evidenced by all of his stops that followed). I think Dumars bigger problem, in my opinion, is that he didn't deal with Rasheed and didn't try to improve the team. Billups has said that the Wallaces attitudes cost them at least one, if not two more trips to the finals. And then when Dumars finally decides it's time to make some changes he parts with the best leader he had and hands that.role over to a cocky kid who had.precious little in the way of accomplishments on his resume.

I lost a lot of respect for Joe when he blamed Davidson's wife for the mess he made. I don't however blame him for bringing an offensive minded coach to what should have been a mature veteran team. That should have been welcomed by the team after Brown but the Wallaces apparently thought they knew better and played accordingly. I guess I just don't buy that a defensive minded club that really had only one good man on man defender would have done much more than what the Pistons did. Even the Spurs gave up on that single-minded formula a while back.

**Shinzaki** · 06-28-2012, 10:55 PM

Yes...Ben's going and Flip's arrival signalled a change in attitude from hard nosed to whiny yatch...

**RJBBREZ** · 06-29-2012, 01:11 AM

Whole bunch went wrong after that s.o.b. big shot bob horry hit that 3 in '05. If he misses the pistons probably would have won their second title in a row and who knows what would have happened afterward. Maybe Larry Brown wouldn't have gone crazy, maybe Ben would have stayed around longer, I think its amazing to look back and see the cause and effect of one series or season. So many things could be different.

**DaBishop** · 06-29-2012, 10:03 AM

I'm probably the only one who is still willing to do it, but to this day I still refuse to fault Joe for hiring Flip and I completely refuse to blame the Pistons failures to win a 2nd or even 3rd championship on Flip. At the end of the day, in my eyes, it becomes do you blame the coach or do you blame the players. Even if you split it 50/50 then you still have to acknowledge the level of success this team had under Flips 3 year tenure of 3 consecutive ECF appearances and had the blame truly only been Flip's, then this team of supposed veteran championship players should have been able to overcome it. Perhaps in fact, the blame should even be 333/33/33 with Joe shouldering a large portion for creating the atmosphere that the coaching staff was the least important piece to the puzzle behind players and GM. This attitude led to the players to basically mutiny on a coach that led them to the best record in the league in his first season. Had the players handled themselves better and more professionally, I don't think anyone would have had anything to complain about with Flip. But I know I'm in a minority of one on this one.

I will say though, my opinion is that the downfall of Dumars did not start with the hiring of Flip but with the firing of Carlisle. It was that day that Dumars established the policy that coaches were interchangable and could be changed at whim and it was the success of Brown, most likely due to the addition of Sheed mid season, that allowed for this opinion to fester and grow.

**Betrayer** · 06-29-2012, 10:57 AM

DaBishop, I don't blame Flip. I blame Joe. It's the "shift" that the article talks about.

Joe made a knee jerk reaction and tried to take a team that he built around smothering defense and make those same players into an offensive minded team by bringing in Flip. That clashed.

You mention Joe making a mistake by showing that he feels coaches are interchangeable...I wish that were more true and he would have realized his mistake, got rid of Flip, sided with the face of his franchise, and brought in a defensive specialist.

This was a team of B+ players, not a couple of A+ guys with role players around them. In order to coordinate that into a championship you need a true guy that can orchestrate it into a defensive machine. Brown did that. I think Carlisle could have as well. But Joe wanted to put a square peg in a round hole based upon an incorrect assumption and it cost him the linchpin of the defense and eventually the loss of the team's identity completely.

People like to mention the Billups trade as the point when this occurred, but I think that was just the final straw that made it all come crashing down and it finally hit home for casual fans. But the fans who were playing close attention could see that it started much earlier. Meanwhile the NBA kept on trucking as usual with the best defensive teams remaining the last ones standing while Joe's "shift" left us with soft players and no team identity.

My hope is simply that he's learned his lesson as he is showing signs of now. I guess we'll see.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 06-29-2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by RJBBREZ

Whole bunch went wrong after that s.o.b. big shot bob horry hit that 3 in '05. If he misses the pistons probably would have won their second title in a row and who knows what would have happened afterward. Maybe Larry Brown wouldn't have gone crazy, maybe Ben would have stayed around longer, I think its amazing to look back and see the cause and effect of one series or season. So many things could be different.

Larry Brown was already going crazy during the play-off run. I don't think winning the championship would have changed what happened next WRT Brown, except possibly making it worse.

**DTroppens** · 06-29-2012, 11:10 AM

I was about to say the same thing - it was the shift. Joe created it. The players may have wanted it. I think there was a group that really didn't want to provide that type of effort on the defensive side of the floor day in and day out, and Flip made sense to be that alternative.

There's no doubt the team had success during the regular season, and even into the playoffs. But when they advanced deep, in the past it was their defense that they hung their hat on and what carried them through the tough times. They didn't have that any more with Flip and with the loss of Ben. And with each increasing year that became more evident. And on the offensive end, they didn't have an alternative to what they could "hang their hat on."

Even during that ungodly great regular season, you can go through games and see the eroding of "what the Pistons were." And in the playoffs there were times where it was painfully evident that this team really didn't know what their calling card was. They didn't know what their identity was and, at times, just looked completely lost. Not that knowing a specific identity is always going to translate into success. Heck, only two teams can make it to the NBA Finals every year, but even in failure you should be able to define what a team is trying to accomplish and understand that "this is what they are." There were times the Pistons players just looked like lost puppies. They had no answers on offense and, unlike the past, they didn't have their defined imposed will on the defensive side of the glass. It really showed.

I kind of agree. It wasn't just Flip's fault. Actually, he was just the piece brought in that was symbolic to the change. Really, I think the problem lied on losing Ben and the Pistons' willingness to continue to push through with what they felt their franchise represented. We had many discussions about this - even when the times were still reasonably positive.

**DTroppens** · 06-29-2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by DaBishop

I
I will say though, my opinion is that the downfall of Dumars did not start with the hiring of Flip but with the firing of Carlisle. It was that day that Dumars established the policy that coaches were interchangable and could be changed at whim and it was the success of Brown, most likely due to the addition of Sheed mid season, that allowed for this opinion to fester and grow.

I think Carlisle really deserved the chance to carry through with what he brought to this organization. I don't know how much of that was Dumars' decision as much as it was the owner's decision based on what I remember reading and hearing at the time. I hated the firing of Carlisle at the time. Knowing what I know now, I can't say I hated having Brown replace him. After all the Pistons came pretty close to winning back-to-back NBA titles, so I think I'd be stupid saying the team would've been better off with Carlisle. But to this day I still feel very good about what he did for this franchise and feel he kind of got a raw deal.

**DaBishop** · 06-29-2012, 12:09 PM

That same team looked pretty piss poor until we got Sheed that year. Regardless, whether we would have won or not with Carlisle isn't the point. The Pistons weren't winning in 2003-4 without Sheed without question in everyone's eyes. Firing Brown(I know that was an inevitabilty with how everything went down) just played into the ego's of the players that the coach wasn't the important piece, they were and when a coach wasn't doing things the way they wanted then it was optional for them to listen to him or do what they were being told. Come the series against Miami you could tell it was chaos and the scenario played itself out 3 years in a row. As soon as they faced any adversity the players would publicly complain about Flip, Sheed and Ben would pout, and the team would implode. This all stemmed from the atmosphere that the management allowed to fester and grow.

**DTroppens** · 06-29-2012, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by DaBishop

That same team looked pretty piss poor until we got Sheed that year. Regardless, whether we would have won or not with Carlisle isn't the point. The Pistons weren't winning in 2003-4 without Sheed without question in everyone's eyes.

They didn't look piss poor, but they looked like a team that probably was going to be on par with what they did the previous year. I remember when Sheed came over. It took like a game or two and then suddenly, this team was transformed. What I'll never forget were the quick one-touch passes Sheed was displaying when he first joined the team. They were one of many things that we eventually never saw again.

**Hart** · 06-29-2012, 12:24 PM

I don't know how you can blame anything on Flip. It seems pretty obvious to me that the Pistons held onto their core too long and should have broke it up a year or two earlier than they did. And when they finally did break it up, Dumars made two terrible signings.

**DaBishop** · 06-29-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by DTroppens

They didn't look piss poor, but they looked like a team that probably was going to be on par with what they did the previous year. I remember when Sheed came over. It took like a game or two and then suddenly, this team was transformed. What I'll never forget were the quick one-touch passes Sheed was displaying when he first joined the team. They were one of many things that we eventually never saw again.

I don't know...they had just lost 9 of 10 games prior to Sheed coming on board or something like that. Granted they did have a 12 game winning streak at one point but they were not a real cohesive team under Brown until Sheed came along. At best they might have gotten into the 2nd round of the playoffs but that certainly wouldn't have made us the Brown worshippers many of us were prior to his forcing his way out of town.

**DTroppens** · 07-01-2012, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hart

I don't know how you can blame anything on Flip. It seems pretty obvious to me that the Pistons held onto their core too long and should have broke it up a year or two earlier than they did. And when they finally did break it up, Dumars made two terrible signings.

Flip's first year the team had just made it to the NBA Finals the previous year and darn near won it. I don't know if it was that obvious they should break them up at that time.

At the time the big question was how can they keep Rasheed and Okur or which to keep. They also won 60+ games and had four starters in the All-Star game. I don't think there was much talk at that time of "breaking them up." No one would've broken up that team at that point.

**DTroppens** · 07-01-2012, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by DaBishop

I don't know...they had just lost 9 of 10 games prior to Sheed coming on board or something like that. Granted they did have a 12 game winning streak at one point but they were not a real cohesive team under Brown until Sheed came along. At best they might have gotten into the 2nd round of the playoffs but that certainly wouldn't have made us the Brown worshippers many of us were prior to his forcing his way out of town.

I'm not sure what we are arguing about - the difference between losing four straight in the conference finals or losing in the second round?

They were 34-22 at the time of the trade (just checked it). They were just coming off a six-game-losing streak to get to that point, and it looked like a team that couldn't contend for an NBA title. It was a team that needed an injection and Sheed brought it and the team looked completely different. I am pretty certain they wouldn't have won the title without Sheed. It was the biggest move of the season - not bringing Brown here.