Detroit Pistons' final grades

**Deleterious** · 04-30-2012, 10:48 AM

Detroit Pistons' final grades: No A's, no F's, no playoffs, and lots of room for improvement | MLive.com

Nothing I disagree with too much. Might have been a little easy on Monroe. Yeah his stats went up, but that is mostly due to his much higher usage rate (15.4 vs 23.6) and not really because he was improving. In fact, his efficiency dropped a little bit from last year. And like they said, his defense is still really really bad.

I might have graded Frank a bit higher. Still don't think much of him as a coach, but he did a really nice job in a tough situation this year. No off season workouts, no training camp, very limited practice time in season makes it incredibly difficult for a new coaching staff.

**DTroppens** · 05-03-2012, 12:41 AM

I don't know if any player really deserved a B of any sort. If a lot of those Bs were dropped in the C range, I think I'd be okay with most of those grades.

A B represents some sort of quality consistency over the course of the season to me, and, honestly, I don't know if anyone really merit that type of thought this year. Even Monroe. I thought he was progressing reasonably well on the offensive side of the court for a good chunk of the season, but it did seem he reached a plateau and did started to regress a bit at the end of the season.

If I was going to give anyone a B of any sort, it would've been Knight. He was a rookie PG joining a fiasco of a squad during a season without much instruction, a lot of travel and a lot of games in a condensed season. And yet, he gave me enough reason for hope this year. I thought the final stretch may have been his best portion of the season despite all these issues. I found that encouraging.

You can probably argue Max a B- just because no one here has any thoughts of him being an impactful NBA player, so the fact that he had periods where he did impose something into games was a bit of a shock. So maybe a B- was warranted there.

Giving Daye anything but an E was being generous. I am more lost of about what value he could possibly bring an NBA team today more than any other point of his career. Honestly, I wonder if he has the tools to help a D-League team have success.

I also think it would've been fair to give Charlie V a legitimate grade instead of copping out with an incomplete. The fact he was in a situation where the coaching staff had no real incentive to keep him on the bench when healthy, and they still did just that says a lot. The guy was making good money and is going to be around. It seems you'd want to know what he brings to the table. The fact he couldn't get out of the doghouse, in that scenario, speaks volumes.

**DTroppens** · 05-03-2012, 12:51 AM

I'm sorry, I have to bring this up again.

If someone watched Daye's play this year and couldn't give HIM an E, then you'll never give anyone an E. Even his comments would suggest a BAD E, like a 40% E, not a 58% E. Gutless turd, give him the E.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 05-03-2012, 10:30 AM

Don't pussyfoot about, what are your thoughts on Daye?

**DTroppens** · 05-03-2012, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

Don't pussyfoot about, what are your thoughts on Daye?

I would've given him an E BEFORE finding out he had a shooting percentage equivalent to Brandon Inge's OBP. He didn't even make 1/3rd of his shots. And to compensate, he's a lousy defender as well. And that last post was ripping the author of the grades more than it was Daye actually, although Daye shouldn't feel too good about the post either.

Really, I'm not even trying to be mean. But what did he do to even merit a D-, except have NBA height?

If I ever became a slave to some gladiator basketball game where I'd have to beat an NBA player to save my life, I think I'd pick Austin Daye to play. He can't shoot, can't rebound, can't play defense. About the only thing that would probably doom me is that NBA height.

**T&P_Fan** · 05-03-2012, 11:28 AM

Monroe finished 18th in defensive player of the year voting. I think people are little tough on his defense, he isn't bad.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 05-03-2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by DTroppens

I would've given him an E BEFORE finding out he had a shooting percentage equivalent to Brandon Inge's OBP. He didn't even make 1/3rd of his shots. And to compensate, he's a lousy defender as well. And that last post was ripping the author of the grades more than it was Daye actually, although Daye shouldn't feel too good about the post either.

Really, I'm not even trying to be mean. But what did he do to even merit a D-, except have NBA height?

If I ever became a slave to some gladiator basketball game where I'd have to beat an NBA player to save my life, I think I'd pick Austin Daye to play. He can't shoot, can't rebound, can't play defense. About the only thing that would probably doom me is that NBA height.

I was being tongue in cheek. I agree with your critiques on Austin.

**DTroppens** · 05-03-2012, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I was being tongue in cheek. I agree with your critiques on Austin.

I didn't mean anything by the post. Just having fun now. Figured I didn't rip Daye enough in the previous post, so I went for it in the next one.

**Hart** · 05-03-2012, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by T&P_Fan

Monroe finished 18th in defensive player of the year voting. I think people are little tough on his defense, he isn't bad.

I don't know what the metrics say but I actually think he is okay as well. He is great at hedging on the perimeter and his activity allows him to get his hands in passing lanes. He averaged over a steal per game, which allowed him to finish in the top 30 in the league.

The problem is big men are judged heavily (and probably rightly) on their shot blocking and ability to alter shots at the rim and Monroe provides very little in this area compared to other big guys.

**Nastradamus** · 05-03-2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Detroit Pistons' final grades: No A's, no F's, no playoffs, and lots of room for improvement | MLive.com

Nothing I disagree with too much. Might have been a little easy on Monroe. Yeah his stats went up, but that is mostly due to his much higher usage rate (15.4 vs 23.6) and not really because he was improving. In fact, his efficiency dropped a little bit from last year. And like they said, his defense is still really really bad.

I might have graded Frank a bit higher. Still don't think much of him as a coach, but he did a really nice job in a tough situation this year. No off season workouts, no training camp, very limited practice time in season makes it incredibly difficult for a new coaching staff.

one thing I have always had a huge problem with is people assuming that low usage rate players could maintain their efficiency if they suddenly had a particularly higher usage rate.

**Nastradamus** · 05-03-2012, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by T&P_Fan

Monroe finished 18th in defensive player of the year voting. I think people are little tough on his defense, he isn't bad.

He was also 15th in PER and 12th in estimated wins added. He's a hell of a player.

**Deleterious** · 05-03-2012, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

one thing I have always had a huge problem with is people assuming that low usage rate players could maintain their efficiency if they suddenly had a particularly higher usage rate.

Production remains the same regardless of minutes, that is pretty common knowledge. Monroe actually saw his production jump, but who wouldn't with an increased usage rate like that.

Modern Stats 101 | Daily Thunder.com

When talking about player stats instead of team stats, don’t waste your time talking about “per game” numbers. Instead use per minute stats. It lets us compare a player who plays 18 minutes per game to a player who plays 36. Time after time it has been shown that a player’s per minute production stays fairly consistent when minutes are increased or decreased. Again, Basketball-Reference.com and many other sites make per 36 minutes, per 40, even per 48 minute stats available for every player in the NBA all the way back into the 50′s.

**Nastradamus** · 05-04-2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Production remains the same regardless of minutes, that is pretty common knowledge. Monroe actually saw his production jump, but who wouldn't with an increased usage rate like that.

Modern Stats 101 | Daily Thunder.com

Minutes maybe, but not usage rate. Its not the same to have a certain efficiency as a 5-10 shots per game guy as it is at 15-20.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

Minutes maybe, but not usage rate. Its not the same to have a certain efficiency as a 5-10 shots per game guy as it is at 15-20.

Yes usage rate. More shots wont see a significant drop in efficiency for the most part.

The only way your point is valid if you are talking about comparing a guy with a small total number of shots to someone with a large number. Like 10 to 1,000.

But Monroe took over 500 shots last year. We had a good idea of what he can do from an efficiency standpoint.

**Nastradamus** · 05-04-2012, 04:01 PM

I disagree i guess. Logically that just can't be true. There's a difference between being a surprise rookie who is somewhat of an afterthought for opponents and being the guy who your team goes to for big buckets and heavy shots. You are getting more defensive attention, taking more contested shots and being more aggressive overall. There's no question a Kobe Bryant or someone of that nature would put up better percentages and overall efficiency numbers with half the usage rate.

This reminds me of the article that claimed Mike Wallace was a better WR than Calvin Johnson because of yards per catch. It is certainly not a given that Wallace, or anyone else, would continue to put up the same ypc on another 30 catches or so.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

I disagree i guess. Logically that just can't be true. There's a difference between being a surprise rookie who is somewhat of an afterthought for opponents and being the guy who your team goes to for big buckets and heavy shots. You are getting more defensive attention, taking more contested shots and being more aggressive overall. There's no question a Kobe Bryant or someone of that nature would put up better percentages and overall efficiency numbers with half the usage rate.

This reminds me of the article that claimed Mike Wallace was a better WR than Calvin Johnson because of yards per catch. It is certainly not a given that Wallace, or anyone else, would continue to put up the same ypc on another 30 catches or so.

Something you are leaving out. More shots = more times fouled, more free throw attempts, etc. So any things you just described are probably more than evened out be easy shots at the line. And free throws count towards efficiency rate.

No need to discuss this anymore really from my point. But I would like to invite you to our next poker game :)

**Nastradamus** · 05-04-2012, 04:41 PM

To each his own I suppose. It defies basic logic though is all I'm saying. I never expected Monroe to have the same efficiency this year.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

To each his own I suppose. It defies basic logic though is all I'm saying. I never expected Monroe to have the same efficiency this year.

What you're saying isn't crazy. Of course things get harder as more attention is paid to to you. But the good ones adjust their game, improve it and post better not worse numbers. Just clicking around on a very small sample of good players, most improved their efficiency in the second year. So not real sure how my position defies logic.

**Hart** · 05-04-2012, 07:43 PM

To me, if you take an average or below average player and increase his usage rate, his efficiency is going to go down. That is why the best players always have the highest usage rates.

Not sure if this applies to the discussion by I do agree with Nastradamus' original statement that lower usage rate players are not guaranteed to maintain their efficiency as they increase their usage.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

To me, if you take an average or below average player and increase his usage rate, his efficiency is going to go down. That is why the best players always have the highest usage rates.

Not sure if this applies to the discussion by I do agree with Nastradamus' original statement that lower usage rate players are not guaranteed to maintain their efficiency as they increase their usage.

So you agree Monroe is an average or below average player?

**Nastradamus** · 05-04-2012, 08:04 PM

He certainly isn't, but it was his first year in such a role at this level, so an adjustment makes sense IMO. Even then, its not like I'm disappointed in his efficiency or production either.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 08:08 PM

I guess I should amend my original statement. Of course if you give a scrub like Bynum a higher usage% his efficiency drops. Like Hart said, average or below average players cant produce when given more chances.

What I should have said is if you're a good player and given a higher usage%, you will justify that and maintain or improve your efficiency. Most of the good players do this.

**Hart** · 05-04-2012, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

So you agree Monroe is an average or below average player?

Monroe's true shooting percentage may have gone down a tad but was it really that bad? I looked at his TS% compared to some other power forwards and he is right on par with Nowitzki, Griffin, Aldridge, and Love. Granted, those guys have higher usage rates...because they are better players. But Monroe's usage rate is solid and I think Monroe found a pretty good balance between usage rate and TS% this year. And in my mind, it showed he is a developing offensive force in this league.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

Monroe's true shooting percentage may have gone down a tad but was it really that bad? I looked at his TS% compared to some other power forwards and he is right on par with Nowitzki, Griffin, Aldridge, and Love. Granted, those guys have higher usage rates...because they are better players. But Monroe's usage rate is solid and I think Monroe found a pretty good balance between usage rate and TS% this year. And in my mind, it showed he is a developing offensive force in this league.

But how does his TS% compare to PG's? Because that is about as relevant as you comparing him to a bunch of PF's. Monroe is a center, not a PF. He was slightly above average compared to other centers. League average was 55.8 and Monroe was 56.4, good for 7th among centers with 30+ games and 25+ mins per game.

**Hart** · 05-04-2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

But how does his TS% compare to PG's? Because that is about as relevant as you comparing him to a bunch of PF's. Monroe is a center, not a PF. He was slightly above average compared to other centers. League average was 55.8 and Monroe was 56.4, good for 7th among centers with 30+ games and 25+ mins per game.

In my mind, Monroe's ideal position in the NBA is power forward next to a long center. But even if you think he is a center, it is still a lot more releveant comparing him to other power forwards than it is point guards. The line between power forwards and centers is not nearly as defined as it used to be because there are so few quality centers in this league.

The reason I chose not to compare him to other centers in the first place is because some of those guys you are mentioning ahead of him have usage rates that are not even in the same universe. DeAndre Jordan has a usage rate of 10. Tyson Chandler has a usage rate of 12. Look at the best centers in the game with similar usage rates. Bynum is at .594. Gortat at .578. Nene at .573. Howard is at .569. And Monroe is at .563. If we are really measuring Monroe only against the best centers in the game, he may not be as good, but he is not far behind either...and he is only 21 years old while all those other guys are playing in their prime.

**Deleterious** · 05-04-2012, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

In my mind, Monroe's ideal position in the NBA is power forward next to a long center. But even if you think he is a center, it is still a lot more releveant comparing him to other power forwards than it is point guards. The line between power forwards and centers is not nearly as defined as it used to be because there are so few quality centers in this league.

The reason I chose not to compare him to other centers in the first place is because some of those guys you are mentioning ahead of him have usage rates that are not even in the same universe. DeAndre Jordan has a usage rate of 10. Tyson Chandler has a usage rate of 12. Look at the best centers in the game with similar usage rates. Bynum is at .594. Gortat at .578. Nene at .573. Howard is at .569. And Monroe is at .563. If we are really measuring Monroe only against the best centers in the game, he may not be as good, but he is not far behind either...and he is only 21 years old while all those other guys are playing in their prime.

I don't know why I bother. Over 80% of his minutes were played at the center position this year. Just **** it, nevermind.

**Deleterious** · 05-05-2012, 02:32 AM

Just in case you needed more fuel for the Austin Daye hate.

Look at the 3 PG's taken after him in the draft and what they did tonight.

Jeff Teague - 23 PTs, 6 ASTs, 4 REBs, 2 BS, 1 ST and 2 TO's.

Jrue Holiday - 17 PTs, 6 ASTs, 6 REBs, 1 BS, 1 ST, and 2 TO's

Ty Lawson - 25 PTs, 7 ASTs, 4 REBs, 0 BS, 2 ST, and 0 TO's

Daye went #15. Holiday, Lawson, and Teague went #17, #18, #19.

If you take #20 and #21 (Maynor and Collison) you have 5 PG's all in a row that are starting or backing up on playoff teams. Meaning they all contribute on playoff teams and Daye cant get on the court for a terrible team.

**Hart** · 05-05-2012, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

I don't know why I bother. Over 80% of his minutes were played at the center position this year. Just **** it, nevermind.

That doesn't make him a center. If the Pistons win the lottery, do you think Monroe is our starting center next year?

If for the sake of this argument, you want classify him as a center, then we can do that. But based on your last response, I think you realized you are fighting a losing battle because even as a center, Monroe's offensive output is pretty darn good.

**Deleterious** · 05-05-2012, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

That doesn't make him a center. If the Pistons win the lottery, do you think Monroe is our starting center next year?

If for the sake of this argument, you want classify him as a center, then we can do that. But based on your last response, I think you realized you are fighting a losing battle because even as a center, Monroe's offensive output is pretty darn good.

Two years of playing center doesn't make him a center? Are you trolling now? That cant be a serious post.

And no, I'm not fighting a losing battle Hart. I never once said his production wasn't good. In fact, I have said he is a less talented Carlos Boozer. Now that isn't exactly a compliment, but Boozer Jr. can do some decent things on offense. A few weeks ago I even said Monroe needs more shots because he is one of the most efficient players on the team. I simply said his efficiency dropped. I said he sucked on defense. Then you started comparing him to people that don't play his position. You started making comparisons on things I never said.

Know what all those centers you listed do that Monroe doesn't? Play defense. Did you see Bynum block 10 shots the other night for a triple double? Did you see Chandler just win DPOY? Jordan is a big time shot blocker. That Howard guy is ok on defense. Unfortunately for Monroe, basketball is played on both ends of the court.

My frustration is you telling me why Monroe isn't a center. Guess what again? He plays center. And yes I think if the Pistons win the lottery he is their starting center next year. But I'm sure you are going to tell me why 220 pound Anthony Davis will be playing center next year.

**Nastradamus** · 05-05-2012, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

I don't know why I bother. Over 80% of his minutes were played at the center position this year. Just **** it, nevermind.

Did you fail to notice the comparison to to Cs with more than enough explanation to go with it? Nobody is quite sure what your point is anymore I feel like. Less talented CArlos Boozer is pretty harsh IMO as well. He's already better defensively than Boozer IMO. He just put up a season at 21 PER wise that Boozer has matched or topped exactly once in his career.

edit - if its defense, its a fair point in general, but that has nothing to do with the efficiency discussion.

**Hart** · 05-05-2012, 09:52 PM

I am not arguing Monroe is a good defensive center. I am arguing he is a good offensive center...or really I am arguing he is good offensive post player playing out of position at center.

There are multiple facets to this argument of position. Al Horford has spent his career playing out of position at center for the Hawks. Tim Duncan spent the early part of his career classified as a power forward even though he was probably one of the top 5 true centers in the league. Kevin Garnett has played almost his whole career at power forward yet he has started all three games of the playoffs at center. Was Rasheed at center of power forward in Detroit? Was Ben Wallace a center or power forward? It depended a lot on who he was playing next to. I think the lines are a lot more blurred than you are making it. Monroe is only playing center because the Pistons don't have a bigger post player...except CV who is terrible defensively. But I would venture a guess he guards the center when he and Monroe are playing together (just a guess because I don't remember from watching the games).

For your sake and the sake of this argument, we can argue Monroe only as a center. But I do not think two years of him playing center makes him a center. And I do not think it is fair to point out his shortcomings defensively as a center when he is playing out of position and then say he is an average or below average player.

And my frustration is you telling me I am trolling and that my post can't be serious.

**Deleterious** · 05-05-2012, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

Did you fail to notice the comparison to to Cs with more than enough explanation to go with it? Nobody is quite sure what your point is anymore I feel like. Less talented CArlos Boozer is pretty harsh IMO as well. He's already better defensively than Boozer IMO. He just put up a season at 21 PER wise that Boozer has matched or topped exactly once in his career.

edit - if its defense, its a fair point in general, but that has nothing to do with the efficiency discussion.

More than enough explanation for what? I never said his production was bad. I never said he wasn't efficient. I simply said it dropped. I said he sucked on defense.

**Deleterious** · 05-05-2012, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

I am not arguing Monroe is a good defensive center. I am arguing he is a good offensive center...or really I am arguing he is good offensive post player playing out of position at center.

There are multiple facets to this argument of position. Al Horford has spent his career playing out of position at center for the Hawks. Tim Duncan spent the early part of his career classified as a power forward even though he was probably one of the top 5 true centers in the league. Kevin Garnett has played almost his whole career at power forward yet he has started all three games of the playoffs at center. Was Rasheed at center of power forward in Detroit? Was Ben Wallace a center or power forward? It depended a lot on who he was playing next to. I think the lines are a lot more blurred than you are making it. Monroe is only playing center because the Pistons don't have a bigger post player...except CV who is terrible defensively. But I would venture a guess he guards the center when he and Monroe are playing together (just a guess because I don't remember from watching the games).

For your sake and the sake of this argument, we can argue Monroe only as a center. But I do not think two years of him playing center makes him a center. And I do not think it is fair to point out his shortcomings defensively as a center when he is playing out of position and then say he is an average or below average player.

And my frustration is you telling me I am trolling and that my post can't be serious.

You are missing one huge point. When a guy plays strictly at one position, thats his position. You might think he is playing out of position and that is fine and an entirely different argument. But for the sake of comparing Monroe, he is up until now a center. No matter how bad you feel he is out of position, he plays his minutes at center and should be compared to other centers.

**Nastradamus** · 05-06-2012, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

More than enough explanation for what? I never said his production was bad. I never said he wasn't efficient. I simply said it dropped. I said he sucked on defense.

you got all pissy that he said he wasn't a C when he included a comparison to top Cs. Just didn't get that one.

**Hart** · 05-06-2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

You are missing one huge point. When a guy plays strictly at one position, thats his position. You might think he is playing out of position and that is fine and an entirely different argument. But for the sake of comparing Monroe, he is up until now a center. No matter how bad you feel he is out of position, he plays his minutes at center and should be compared to other centers.

And I did compare him to other centers. But if you are going to talk about Monroe's shortcomings defensively, you have to talk about the fact he is playing out of position. If Tayshaun Prince were playing power forward, we would not evaluate him defensively without taking into consideration he is not playing his natural position. That is a more extreme example but the same principle.

All these things have to be taken into consideration when you are talking about Monroe as an average player at best.

The argument started about usage rates and TS% and I did compare him to other centers in those two stats. Not sure what more you are looking for there.

**Deleterious** · 05-06-2012, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

And I did compare him to other centers. But if you are going to talk about Monroe's shortcomings defensively, you have to talk about the fact he is playing out of position. If Tayshaun Prince were playing power forward, we would not evaluate him defensively without taking into consideration he is not playing his natural position. That is a more extreme example but the same principle.

All these things have to be taken into consideration when you are talking about Monroe as an average player at best.

The argument started about usage rates and TS% and I did compare him to other centers in those two stats. Not sure what more you are looking for there.

No, because I don't think he is playing out of position.

**Hart** · 05-06-2012, 01:50 PM

I kind of figured that based on your previous statements.

**paperstacks1980** · 06-04-2012, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Hart

To me, if you take an average or below average player and increase his usage rate, his efficiency is going to go down. That is why the best players always have the highest usage rates.

Not sure if this applies to the discussion by I do agree with Nastradamus' original statement that lower usage rate players are not guaranteed to maintain their efficiency as they increase their usage.

good point

**Porcelain God** · 06-04-2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by DTroppens

I'm sorry, I have to bring this up again.

If someone watched Daye's play this year and couldn't give HIM an E, then you'll never give anyone an E. Even his comments would suggest a BAD E, like a 40% E, not a 58% E. Gutless turd, give him the E.

You could definitely see this type of season happening to Daye just as soon as Prince signed his new contract. Daye was convinced that he deserved to be a started.