Pistons Offseason

**Nastradamus** · 12-22-2011, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

And just for the record. You are right about this team needing a wing defender. But uhh, how about thinking about that before you sign the 5 other idiots to contracts?

For what its worth, they also need about 3 post defenders too.

Get a plan and stick to it Joe.

Eh, they need one post defender and one wing defender. Jerebko is a pretty quality defensive 4 IMO and Monroe will get most of the C minutes one way or the other. That's why I want Fesenko. I see the rotation as Ben/Stuckey/Knight getting most of the G minutes, Bynum probably squeezed out until an injury or trade happens. The starting frontcourt is obvious. After that, Charlie and Daye fight for backup F minutes. Daye could play more 4 if Bogans is signed and Bogans can be the 4th guard when we need a different look as well as the backup SF.

**Deleterious** · 12-22-2011, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

I put a disclaimer in my comment to avoid a stupid rant like this, I just don't see the point but whatever. My point was, he was extremely impressive defensively and was nationally recognized for it. Without even looking I feel pretty confident guessing that he received multiple all NBA defensive team votes. I guess we just have different philosophies though. I'd like to contend as much as possible this year. I don't think anyone other than Knight on this team falls under the category of, needs to get minutes to develop while allowing the team to assess their futur value. MAYBE Daye.

Sorry, but when you make stupid comments like Bogans is good, you get stupid replies. When your source for that statement is "some guy at ESPN" you will get stupid replies. Bogans is a good defender. Bogans is not a good player.

I mean, he doesn't have the dazzling array of talent like CV does

**Deleterious** · 12-22-2011, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

Eh, they need one post defender and one wing defender. Jerebko is a pretty quality defensive 4 IMO and Monroe will get most of the C minutes one way or the other. That's why I want Fesenko. I see the rotation as Ben/Stuckey/Knight getting most of the G minutes, Bynum probably squeezed out until an injury or trade happens. The starting frontcourt is obvious. After that, Charlie and Daye fight for backup F minutes. Daye could play more 4 if Bogans is signed and Bogans can be the 4th guard when we need a different look as well as the backup SF.

You might get your wish.

Kyrylo Fesenko interests Pistons « PistonPowered

**Nastradamus** · 12-23-2011, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Sorry, but when you make stupid comments like Bogans is good, you get stupid replies. When your source for that statement is "some guy at ESPN" you will get stupid replies. Bogans is a good defender. Bogans is not a good player.

I mean, he doesn't have the dazzling array of talent like CV does

I guess it depends on what you mean by good player. He can be in a good team's 8 man rotation, that's what I mean. He started for the best team in the East last year. He's a good role player who could help this team. I think calling him no good is pretty unfair.

**Deleterious** · 12-23-2011, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

I guess it depends on what you mean by good player. He can be in a good team's 8 man rotation, that's what I mean. He started for the best team in the East last year. He's a good role player who could help this team. I think calling him no good is pretty unfair.

Its cute to say he was a starter. But he didn't even play 18 minutes a game. He also played a position the Bulls were desperately trying to upgrade all last year and this offseason.

Like I said. Good defender, not a good player. Not needed at all on this team since they are already full at the position he plays.

**Nastradamus** · 12-23-2011, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Its cute to say he was a starter. But he didn't even play 18 minutes a game. He also played a position the Bulls were desperately trying to upgrade all last year and this offseason.

Like I said. Good defender, not a good player. Not needed at all on this team since they are already full at the position he plays.

I didn't say he was starting caliber either. He's a good role player, you have to be to start for a team of that caliber. I just don't see us as full. We have 4 guards and 2 SFs, I don't think fitting him in would be a huge squeeze.

**Deleterious** · 12-23-2011, 04:26 PM

Charlie Villanueva’s suspension reduced « PistonPowered

**Deleterious** · 12-24-2011, 11:09 AM

Just laid a bet on the Pistons O/U for wins this year. It was 21.5 and I took the over.

**Nastradamus** · 12-24-2011, 12:12 PM

Good bet IMO. I think team will hover around .500

**alwaysthrowheat** · 12-24-2011, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Just laid a bet on the Pistons O/U for wins this year. It was 21.5 and I took the over.

I'll go under on that.

**DTroppens** · 12-24-2011, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Charlie Villanueva’s suspension reduced « PistonPowered

I watch the Lions qualify for the playoffs for the ultimate high, and then I read this to lessen my enthusiasm. Thanks a lot D.

**DTroppens** · 12-24-2011, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Just laid a bet on the Pistons O/U for wins this year. It was 21.5 and I took the over.

So that makes 22-44 your benchmark? I think that's a reasonable bet. They did better than that win pct. last year. I probably would've done the same.

**Deleterious** · 12-25-2011, 12:52 AM

Yeah last years win % would get them 24 wins. They did that without Monroe playing a lot the first part of the year.

I'm thinking Monroe all year and improved. The addition of Knight and Jerebko and hopefully a decent coach gets them at least 25 wins.

**drownwithyou** · 12-25-2011, 12:54 AM

No Kuester has to be worth at least two extra wins, right?

**alwaysthrowheat** · 12-25-2011, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

No Kuester has to be worth at least two extra wins, right?

Addition by subtraction. Gotta love a coach being worth -2 WAR

**KleShreen** · 12-26-2011, 02:13 AM

No Adopt a Piston this year? Boooooo. First no Adopt a Wing and now no Adopt a Piston!

**Deleterious** · 12-27-2011, 07:38 PM

Doubt anyone cares. But Summers made the NO roster and White got cut.

**Nastradamus** · 12-27-2011, 09:43 PM

Glad to hear about Summers.

Sick to my stomach about not gettin Fesenko. Exactly the type of physicality we needed. Here's a great breakdown on him.

John Hollinger
What Fesenko brings
"The best-kept secret in the NBA right now is Fesenko's monstrous defensive stats. It's not that one or two metrics point out his defensive value; it's that all of them do, without any pointing to the contrary. Last season the Jazz were an eye-popping 11.91 points per 100 possessions better on defense with Fesenko on the floor, and this is not a new trend. The season before it was 8.67; in limited minutes his first two seasons he also had a strong differential. Synergy Stats, meanwhile, rated Fesenko as the second-best defender in the entire league among players who faced at least 150 opponent plays; the season before he was first. And according to 82games.com, opposing centers had a PER of just 10.4 against him; the season before it was 12.9. Despite his size, Fesenko doesn't block a ton of shots or dominate the boards. He just uglies up the game for opponents with his sheer hugeness, especially since he moves his feet fairly well for his size. And he can still get better -- he wasn't always fully engaged in Utah and needs to step up his commitment. Now for the bad news. Fesenko has been fairly disastrous offensively. He tends to bring balls back into shot-blockers when finishing at the rim, he's a 39.8 percent career foul shooter, he's clumsy, and he has no shooting range or ball skills. Additionally, his towering foul rate limits his impact -- Fesenko commits one every 4.94 minutes for his career, making it virtually impossible for him to play extended minutes. Nonetheless, he can be a very effective, low-cost backup center, and if he can make a few more plays offensively he'll have real value."

NBA Rumors - NBA Trade Rumors, Free Agency Rumors and More - Rumor Central - ESPN

**Buddha** · 12-27-2011, 10:13 PM

Who is a better fit for the Pistons: tayshaun prince or fesenko? Prince or Kris Humphries?

I love Joe D, but come on. we gave Joe a chance to rebuild the team and it hasn't gone well. Might be time for a switch at the top.

**Betrayer** · 12-28-2011, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Buddha

Might be time for a switch at the top.

You might be the only one still using the word "might" in that sentence.

**Nastradamus** · 12-29-2011, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Buddha

Who is a better fit for the Pistons: tayshaun prince or fesenko? Prince or Kris Humphries?

I love Joe D, but come on. we gave Joe a chance to rebuild the team and it hasn't gone well. Might be time for a switch at the top.

He made bad moves over the last few years, but they have given him another chance to rebuild so I'll probably give him a little more time. I do wish he would make more value moves though, moves with some creativity. I've liked most of his drafts lately so I'm willing to see what he does in this one. I'm willing to see what Knight,Monroe, Jerebko and Stuckey become(for Stuckey more what his role becomes, he is what he is) and how he compliments them. He shouldn't get too long, but I'll give him a little more time.

I don't hate the Tay deal because Daye has looked so terrible and our Gs are too small to go 3 guard. We didn't have a lot of options at the SF spot. Plus its tradeable IMO. Guess it depends if you think Jerebko can play there, but I'm not so sure he can. Humpries would have looked nice though for that 4/30

**RJBBREZ** · 12-29-2011, 11:57 PM

This team is so terrible, unbearable to watch even. Makes me sad when I realize how far they have fallen, and how long of a road they have to become relevant again. Joe has to go, I want to try and remember him for the early part of the decade, not for turning into Matt Millen.

**alwaysthrowheat** · 12-30-2011, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

He made bad moves over the last few years, but they have given him another chance to rebuild so I'll probably give him a little more time. I do wish he would make more value moves though, moves with some creativity. I've liked most of his drafts lately so I'm willing to see what he does in this one. I'm willing to see what Knight,Monroe, Jerebko and Stuckey become(for Stuckey more what his role becomes, he is what he is) and how he compliments them. He shouldn't get too long, but I'll give him a little more time.

I don't hate the Tay deal because Daye has looked so terrible and our Gs are too small to go 3 guard. We didn't have a lot of options at the SF spot. Plus its tradeable IMO. Guess it depends if you think Jerebko can play there, but I'm not so sure he can. Humpries would have looked nice though for that 4/30

Why are you willing to give him more time? He's done absolutely nothing but give the Pistons the least promising roster in the entire NBA, and they're straddled with a bunch of commitments for multi-year deals. The franchise is absolutely nowhere close to heading in the right direction in any shape or form. Who cares if Daye sucks? I'd rather watch him suck than Tayshaun and his broken down, has-been body run up and down the court non-chalantly. At least play the young guys, if they lose, who cares, the only way to win in the NBA is to rack up lottery picks if you're a team like Detroit right now.

**Buddha** · 12-30-2011, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Nastradamus

He made bad moves over the last few years, but they have given him another chance to rebuild so I'll probably give him a little more time. I do wish he would make more value moves though, moves with some creativity. I've liked most of his drafts lately so I'm willing to see what he does in this one. I'm willing to see what Knight,Monroe, Jerebko and Stuckey become(for Stuckey more what his role becomes, he is what he is) and how he compliments them. He shouldn't get too long, but I'll give him a little more time.

I don't hate the Tay deal because Daye has looked so terrible and our Gs are too small to go 3 guard. We didn't have a lot of options at the SF spot. Plus its tradeable IMO. Guess it depends if you think Jerebko can play there, but I'm not so sure he can. Humpries would have looked nice though for that 4/30

I agree to a point. I support Dumars more than most of the reactionaries on this board. However, he has had a terrible track record in attempting to rebuild the team. I realize how hard it is to rebuild an NBA team without having a top 3 pick or a superstar, so what he's been trying to do is next to impossible.

That being said, he hasn't done it. He's failed. I'm not opposed to seeing what someone else can do.

they really are an extremely untalented team. There's no need to rehash all of his mistakes here (its been done a million times), but he's assembled a roster that makes no sense, has no identity, and has the least upside of any team in the NBA. With little hope of digging themsleves out of it for years to come.

Someone needs to come in and blow this team up. Someone other than Joe Dumars.

**Mr. Bigglesworth** · 12-30-2011, 09:46 AM

I posted this in the most recent game thread, but I'll post it here again because it seems more relevant to this discussion that what was going on in that thread:

It pisses me off the Pistons signed Tayshaun and Rodney. They aren't going to be part of the solution and they have limited trade value at best.

I'd like a Dumars apologist to explain how signing them is going to help rebuild the Pistons.

**T&P_Fan** · 12-30-2011, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I'd like a Dumars apologist to explain how signing them us going to help rebuild the Pistons.

Not sure you will find one on this board. The debate has centered around what the direction of this team is. The only thing I can think of is that Stuckey could be a valuable trade asset for a team looking for some scoring off the bench. Stuckey is useful in that role, he can get to the line and prey on smaller defenders, but the fact is he isn't a starting PG and he isn't a starting 2-guard, his future is obviously not with the Pistons.

Tayshaun....I just can't figure this one out. Why did he choose to resign with the Pistons, was no one else offering 4 years, was the money that different? Also, Tay looks completely disinterested. Perhaps he is just content with being the Piston organization and collecting his paycheck. He has a ring, he has a gold medal, he was part of a great 7 years stretch of Piston basketball. Maybe he is just happy getting paid and playing basketball. Good for him, awful for Pistons fans. The one thing it probably does say definitively though is that the Pistons aren't that high on Austin Daye, justifiably so too.

But.....now what? Where is the next step Joe? I guess I see us bottoming out this year, getting a top 5 pick and trying to build a team like OKC or the Clippers (I know they traded for Paul, but they still drafted Griffin, Gordon, Jordan and Bledsoe), through the draft.

Knight looks to be a bit better than advertised, who knows what that will lead too, but early signs are encouraging. The biggest issue is that there is no observable plan of action.

**Deleterious** · 12-30-2011, 04:43 PM

For what it is worth, Golden State backed out on the Fesenko deal.

**Deleterious** · 12-30-2011, 04:57 PM

I admit I am not as high on Fesenko as Nastradamus is. But from the crap we have seen in the post so far and for $1M come on Joe. I would double that and get him in here now.

**Nastradamus** · 12-30-2011, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

For what it is worth, Golden State backed out on the Fesenko deal.

Really? Interesting. I'm not saying he's god, but he's a poor man's Kendrick Perkins IMO and he'd be a great compliment to Monroe as the backup C. We need some beef and physicality down there. I wonder why they backed out, health? that would be a red flag obviously. I'm not a huge defensive metrics guy, but when they are so consistent from year to year and across multiple statistics, it becomes hard to deny. Its definitely not going to be a layup line to the rim with him in there, that's for sure.

**Nastradamus** · 12-30-2011, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I posted this in the most recent game thread, but I'll post it here again because it seems more relevant to this discussion that what was going on in that thread:

It pisses me off the Pistons signed Tayshaun and Rodney. They aren't going to be part of the solution and they have limited trade value at best.

I'd like a Dumars apologist to explain how signing them is going to help rebuild the Pistons.

I imagine that they don't feel luring big free agents here is very likely so they are going to rebuild through the draft for the most part. In that case, allowing talent to leave for no compensation isn't really helping anything. Obviously a lot of it has to do with how you feel about Stuckey.

For me, I look at it as, Stuckey is arguably the best player on the team, probably a top 20-25 G in this league, is entering his prime and signed a relatively short term deal. I think he's a pretty good player myself. He's been not only asked to play starting PG when that isn't really what he is, but he's been asked to do so without any good weapons to dish to. He isn't a great passer by any means, but it sure wouldn't hurt to have a PF who could set strong picks, someone who could finish at the rim, maybe a consistent shooter or 2. The biggest issue for me is, people tend to forget that when a player is put in the wrong role or a bigger role than he is meant for it really highlights and exacerbates his weaknesses. I think Stuckey as a 3rd or 4th option or as the 1st option on the 2nd unit would be a lot more effective and efficient. As is he is basically our best chance of going point for point with an opposing team's best player and that is sad and just not Stuckey's role. We long struggled to find a guy who could get to the rim and Stuckey excels at it. That alone is a valuable skill, plus he can play solid defense on 1s and 2s and can make some plays as a passer. He's not a pure PG and he has little natural passing skill, but he manages to rack up 4 or 5 assists most night and that's just fine for a combo guard or 2 guard. I also don't agree that he'd have little trade value.

With Prince, I was less enthusiastic, but we had little at the 3 spot and I think he's a good veteran presence to have around. He didn't get more than market value and when you consider that we were going to re-sign Stuckey, we weren't going to be under the cap to sign an outside free agent anyways. Even with a Gordon amnesty most likely. Even then, what do you get, MAYBE an Al Jefferson type, who you will surely overpay. That's Gordon/CV all over again.

**Nastradamus** · 12-30-2011, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by alwaysthrowheat

Why are you willing to give him more time? He's done absolutely nothing but give the Pistons the least promising roster in the entire NBA, and they're straddled with a bunch of commitments for multi-year deals. The franchise is absolutely nowhere close to heading in the right direction in any shape or form. Who cares if Daye sucks? I'd rather watch him suck than Tayshaun and his broken down, has-been body run up and down the court non-chalantly. At least play the young guys, if they lose, who cares, the only way to win in the NBA is to rack up lottery picks if you're a team like Detroit right now.

I'm not saying he necessarily deserves another chance, but he has been given one so I don't have a problem seeing it through. Trading Billups and Afflalo while signing CV and Gordon was an awful set of moves, but he basically hasn't been allowed to trade for a few years and has drafted well recently. Stuckey,Afflalo,Jerebko,Monroe and Knight is a solid set of picks and while it looks like Daye might not really work out, I don't think its a total bust either. I doubt many guys around the league have a better record over that time, especially without a pick in the top 5.

Its like you say, the task he has been asked to do is near impossible. Pretty much every GM out there has some horrendous moves on their record, but most of them don't have a championship and 6 ECF appearances on their resume. Especially without the aid of a superstar player. He's basically had 2 chances to build a team and one was a pretty colossal flop while the other was wildly successful. If some other guy had been our GM and we fired him, and Joe D came to apply for our opening with that resume, I think we'd hire him in a second. Fans get bored and want change all of the time, but I'm not sure there is much evidence to suggest that there is someone out there that is particularly likely to do a better job.

I do like Kevin Pritchard though if we do fire him :)

**sinister porpoise** · 12-31-2011, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I posted this in the most recent game thread, but I'll post it here again because it seems more relevant to this discussion that what was going on in that thread:

It pisses me off the Pistons signed Tayshaun and Rodney. They aren't going to be part of the solution and they have limited trade value at best.

I'd like a Dumars apologist to explain how signing them is going to help rebuild the Pistons.

Stuckey can be part of the future, Tayshaun is still a good player, both are on reasonable deals which shouldn't be hard to move.

The only solution in the NBA is to get a top player, usually through the draft, Stuckey and Prince don't inhibit that

**Deleterious** · 12-31-2011, 01:11 AM

Fesenko no longer in Warriors' plans

**DTroppens** · 01-02-2012, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by sinister porpoise

Stuckey can be part of the future, Tayshaun is still a good player, both are on reasonable deals which shouldn't be hard to move.

The only solution in the NBA is to get a top player, usually through the draft, Stuckey and Prince don't inhibit that

I see no value rewarding a player like Stuckey when he's proven himself to be a selfish, spoiled and a part of the problem from the past.

I think Prince has value if you are closer to being a quality team, but he has some of the same baggage that Stuckey does, and is a vet with that baggage. Plus, Prince has always wanted to be more of a complimentary piece to a strong lineup vs. the primary piece on an average to weaker lineup. So he's the opposite of what you want for what you have on your roster.

I saw no value having either on the team this year, really.

**drownwithyou** · 01-02-2012, 12:37 AM

They must have realized that Prince brings in those hundreds of fans that lightly populate the Palace each home game.

**Nastradamus** · 01-02-2012, 01:20 AM

Demarcus Cousins demanded a trade, maybe. I imagine Joe would be interested, but maybe his behavior so far in the NBA would deter him. Not sure what we'd give, unless it was Monroe. Would people do that?

**drownwithyou** · 01-02-2012, 01:23 AM

I wouldn't give up Monroe for Cousins. I liked Cousins a lot coming out, but his attitude seems absolutely terrible.

For what it is worth, Cousins' agent says there is no trade demand and the Kings said they aren't trading him.

**Deleterious** · 01-02-2012, 01:33 AM

Cousins was arguing with Westphal and said if thats how you feel, then trade me. Not exactly a demand.

I don't see how Westphal isn't fired instantly. First, why is a coach releasing that press release? Second, why say your player demanded a trade? It lowers his value. Plus in this case, it doesn't look like its even true.

Tyreke Evans has been mouthing off about him a bit as well. His days are numbered.

**Deleterious** · 01-02-2012, 01:36 AM

Here we go.

https://twitter.com/#!/sam_amick/sta...62102949740544

They contend it was responsive, as in "If you don't like me, then trade me now." Westphal-Cousins relationship obviously in dire straits.

**Hart** · 01-02-2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Cousins was arguing with Westphal and said if thats how you feel, then trade me. Not exactly a demand.

I don't see how Westphal isn't fired instantly. First, why is a coach releasing that press release? Second, why say your player demanded a trade? It lowers his value. Plus in this case, it doesn't look like its even true.

Tyreke Evans has been mouthing off about him a bit as well. His days are numbered.

It sounds to me like Westphal has the backing of management on this one so if the King's organization is okay with letting Westphal be the one to go with public with this, then I have no problem with what Westphal did.

No way I would trade Monroe for Cousins. I was a huge supporter of Cousins coming out of Kentucky and was willing to overlook his behavior problems as just immaturity but that is a mistake, especially now. He needs to go to a veteran team where the veterans will police the locker room.