How Bad are the Pistons

[sportz4life]

OK, my disdain and contempt for Joe Dumars is well documented on this board.

I was doing a little homework regarding the Pistons roster, their salary cap situation and their capacity to improve in coming years.

For purpses of full disclosure, I have stated I have zero confidence in Joe Dumars ability to correctly manage the draft (lottery), make effective trade, select coaches or manage the cap.

I intend this post to give you a small perspective on where we stand, where some similar teams stand regarding their roster and cap status.

I hope it gives everyone some perspective, because the teams and circumstances we compare to..will make you cringe.

As of 2/8/2010 the Pistons are 17-32 tied for the 25th worst record in the NBA. Minesotta and Golden State are tied with 13 wins at 28/29 and well within reach. (we will compare our circumstances to them shortly)

Since January of 2009, the Pistons have a 37-66 record plus an 0-4 sweep in the 2009 playoffs.

Since January 2009 the Pistons have 8 consecutive losing months.

Detroit currently ranks 29th in NBA offense at 91.6PPG
Detroit currently ranks 29th in FG% at .434
Detroit ranks 30th in 3pt FG% at .292 (PHO is #1 at .404)
Detroit ranks 29th in FT% at .721
Detroit ranks 28th in point differential at -258
Teams have made 122 more 3PT
Detroit ranks 30th in PPS (points per shot) differential at -.016
Detroit ranks 30th in Assists per game at 17.9 (UTAH#1 at 26.2)
Detoit ranks 22nd in A/TO ratio at 1.30

Detoit Ranks 10th in DEF at 96.9 PPG (TIED with LAL)
Detroit Ranks 23rd in FG% against .471
Detroit Ranks 29th in Point per Shot at 1.30


Ok so we stink..but lets understand how badly we stink.

Compare current (2010) payrolls and 2011 committed payrolls

MINN Payroll 2010/61.503 2011/35.143 (8 players)

Jefferson. Love, Flynn, Brewer, (Rubio) 2010 Lottery pick
No allbatros contracts

GS Payroll 2010/65.957 2011/53.154 (10 players)
Ellis, Biedrins, Curry, Randolph, Morrow (2010 Lottery Pick)
Maggette, Raadmonivic (allbatros contracts)

NJ Payroll 2010/59.937 2011/26.039 (9 players)
Lopez, Harris, Yi, Lee, Williams (2010 Lottery Pick)
None (allbatros contracts)

Detroit Payroll 2010/61.220 2011/51.422 (8 players)
Stuckey, Gordon, Jerebko
Hamilton, Prince, Maxiel, Gordon, Villanueva (allbatros contracts)

Yeah I put Gordon is in both spots, because it's expensive and could go either way..

So we know get to compare ourselves to NJ, MINN, GS three of the worst franchises in basketball, I would add WASH but that depresses me too much because WASH is just a disaster.

Alll 3 of these teams have either, a lot more cap space, better young players or both. NJ the worst in performance, has a far better chance to improve based upon their youth and financial situation. Minnesotta actually has better players, Love, Jefferson and Flynn assets, Rubio and payroll situation.

Golden State which is a perennial management laughingstock has better players, tradeable assets and a similar future payroll.

So what do you guys think, my feelilngs are pretty obvious, but with the draft history, coaching selections and payroll management and most of all roster management where is this team headed.

Do you trust current management, how do you fix it?? Did you understand the situation was this chaotic.

So call me a pessimist, but the facts are the facts..it's ugly on the floor, ugly in the future and the ugliest in the front office.

[Hart]

Good Post.

I don't have as negative view of Dumar's past as you do but I do not trust his judgement going forward, just based on what has happened since free agency start last summer.

NJ and Minnesota are certainly in more desirable positions than we are. I am not all that impressed with Golden State's young talent.

I don't know if I would put CV's contract as an albatross contract quite yet. I think you are right about Gordon's...it could go either way. Both Gordon and CV are young enough though that I think we could move them if they prove healthy.

[Porcelain God]

Great post. I completely agree with the lack of confidence of Dumars. The off season signings were absolutely brutal.

[84 Lives!!!]

I see you're still struggling with perspective Sportz. What was the draft position of each of those teams? Here, I'll post year-by-year records of each of those teams, you tell me which one looks like the outlier:

Det Record:

‘05/06 64-18 Lost ECF
‘06/07 53-29 Lost ECF
‘07/08 59-23 Lost ECF
‘08/09 39-43
‘09/10 17-32

NJ

‘05/06 49-33
‘06/07 41-41
‘07/08 34-48
‘08/09 34-48
‘09/10 4-46

Wash

‘05/06 42-40
‘06/07 41-41
‘07/08 43-39
‘08/09 19-63
‘09/10 17-32

Minn

‘05/06 33-49
‘06/07 32-50
‘07/08 22-60
‘08/09 24-58
‘09/10 13-38

GS

‘05/06 34-48
‘06/07 42-40
‘07/08 48-34
‘08/09 29-53
‘09/10 13-36

[84 Lives!!!]

PS:

Detroit gets the #4 draft pick this year, and DeMarcus Cousins falls to their spot anf Dumars drafts him... Does your perspective change on Joe's "drafting ability"?

[84 Lives!!!]

PS2:

Detroit Payroll 2010/61.220 2011/51.422 (8 players)
Stuckey, Gordon, Jerebko
Hamilton, Prince, Maxiel, Gordon, Villanueva (albatros contracts)

1) How is Prince an albatros contract when he is an expiring contract next year? He has an ADVANTAGEOUS contract to trade, if not this year, then in the offseason. Now... if he EXTENDS Prince for 5 years and $50 mill... I will IMMEDIATELY join you Sportz, in calling for Joe's head ASAP. I'm going to guess that Joe doesn't extend Prince though... just a guess.

2) You can't yet call Gordon's & CV's contracts albatross contracts... yet. They're on the "razor's edge", and could fall either way... but it's too early to make the call.

3) As for salary commitments, and overall team structure... Like Buddha and I keep saying: Two more years to see if Joe D can successfully rebuild the team, again.

4) Maxiell's contract MAY be an albatross...but it's only $5 mill per, not a $20 mill per albatross that would be a true team-killer, and he may end up as some other team's "salvage-type" player, or part of a needed contract to balance a trade $$$-wise... I'm not saying the contract isn't an overpay for Max's production, it is. But it's not a cap-killer albatross either. More like a minor irritant.

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

Originally Posted by Porcelain God

Great post. I completely agree with the lack of confidence of Dumars. The off season signings were absolutely brutal.

CVs contract was not that bad. He is going to be a great 6th man for this team. 6-11 that will give you points ina variety of ways. 7 mil a year is not that bad. Can't judge BG yet, he was really good the first two weeks, that is who he is, not the guy we have seen since he rolled his ankle.

This team will be fine after the lottery and we shed Tay's salary. Which will not be hard to do at all next year and can still happen in the next week or so.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

I see you're still struggling with perspective Sportz. What was the draft position of each of those teams? Here, I'll post year-by-year records of each of those teams, you tell me which one looks like the outlier:

Det Record:

‘05/06 64-18 Lost ECF
‘06/07 53-29 Lost ECF
‘07/08 59-23 Lost ECF
‘08/09 39-43
‘09/10 17-32

NJ

‘05/06 49-33
‘06/07 41-41
‘07/08 34-48
‘08/09 34-48
‘09/10 4-46

Wash

‘05/06 42-40
‘06/07 41-41
‘07/08 43-39
‘08/09 19-63
‘09/10 17-32

Minn

‘05/06 33-49
‘06/07 32-50
‘07/08 22-60
‘08/09 24-58
‘09/10 13-38

GS

‘05/06 34-48
‘06/07 42-40
‘07/08 48-34
‘08/09 29-53
‘09/10 13-36

Seriously, what exactly does that have to do with today, except provide a roadmap to the next 5 years..talk about a lack of perspective..the question is, who would you rather be..I do find it both interesting and entertaining you, thatcontinue to try and defend the indefensible. Plus you quote stats in those posts, in whicjh you have used the incorrect context or just flat out admit you don't understand. We are all entitled to our viewpoint.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

PS:

Detroit gets the #4 draft pick this year, and DeMarcus Cousins falls to their spot anf Dumars drafts him... Does your perspective change on Joe's "drafting ability"?

I'm not a fortune teller..my speculation is he will go #2..so pray for some losses..but don't hold your breath..the last time we had #2..how'd that work out??

[Deleterious]

Best post the Piston forum has seen in a long time. Even though it makes me want to cry.

I'm on record saying Dumars deserves to get another 2-3 years to rebuild. I'm afraid he will have done so much damage by then, it will take another GM 3-4 years just to undo it and get them back to respectable. This trade deadline and this summer could change my mind pretty fast on how long I want to give him.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

PS2:

Detroit Payroll 2010/61.220 2011/51.422 (8 players)
Stuckey, Gordon, Jerebko
Hamilton, Prince, Maxiel, Gordon, Villanueva (albatros contracts)

1) How is Prince an albatros contract when he is an expiring contract next year? He has an ADVANTAGEOUS contract to trade, if not this year, then in the offseason. Now... if he EXTENDS Prince for 5 years and $50 mill... I will IMMEDIATELY join you Sportz, in calling for Joe's head ASAP. I'm going to guess that Joe doesn't extend Prince though... just a guess.

2) You can't yet call Gordon's & CV's contracts albatross contracts... yet. They're on the "razor's edge", and could fall either way... but it's too early to make the call.

3) As for salary commitments, and overall team structure... Like Buddha and I keep saying: Two more years to see if Joe D can successfully rebuild the team, again.

4) Maxiell's contract MAY be an albatross...but it's only $5 mill per, not a $20 mill per albatross that would be a true team-killer, and he may end up as some other team's "salvage-type" player, or part of a needed contract to balance a trade $$$-wise... I'm not saying the contract isn't an overpay for Max's production, it is. But it's not a cap-killer albatross either. More like a minor irritant.

1.) Because a contract is expiring doesn't make it a good one, he actually would be worth more in trade if the contract was bigger. It's an allbatross until he moves it, then let's see what he gets. Deal in the today, Dumars tomorrow's have not bee real shrewd recently.

2) See opportunity cost..it's why I classified Gordon as an asset and a a liability. CV is a flat out liability, he takes playing time from Daye and they are actually becoming more similar by the minute and CV is Terry Mills without the 3 ball ability..

3) Two years, I can only imagine the damage after that..It's like saying give Bernie Madoff two more years.

4) I like this logic, "yeah guy's it's an acknowledged **** up, but it's a smaller calliber screw up so it isn't that bad".. Is that like I burned the house down, but I only burned half of it so thats the bright side..

84L..it's called opportunity cost, what could you do if you had the money and resources and they were used properly.

[DTroppens]

The Pistons have some just brutal contracts for brutal lengths of time.

Prince's contract would have more value being one that ends after next year if he was producing at any sort of level. Right now he has little value - minus a swap from someone so they can free cap space in a year.

I kind of agree with the albatross contracts mentioned, with only possibly of Gordon being able to work himself into being a piece of a quality team one day with this organization. I won't put him on the albatross list quite yet.

The Pistons have done things half-jerked and in effect haven't created any sort of clear path of exactly what they are trying to accomplish. I don't even know if Joe knows what he is doing these days. Charlie V as a piece to a puzzle for something?!? Yikes. He's going to get 7 to 8 mil a year for the next three years. Maxiell was never worth $5 mil a year for what the terms of that contract. High energy bench guys are a dime a dozen. Generally, they are called high energy bench guys because they really don't have a strength to their game beyond that energy. Sure, he gets the occasional highlight play, but it's the other 10 that his poor play goes unseen that really determines his "value." Maxiell gets a player option of $5 mil right through 2012/13 - you can kiss having options with that $5 mil for while.

Rip's contract just kills this team. There's no getting rid of him unless he produces. And he can't produce effectively unless there's a point that helps make Rip better. $12.6 mil until 2013/13? That has albatross written all over it.

You look at our top five contracts right now and almost all of them just make you shudder. About a year ago we were all hoping that we'd be free of cap space for this offseason. Dumars can basically forget about that. It's not going to happen.

Dumars isn't going anywhere soon - unless the team is sold and the new organization wants to change the direction immediately. I certainly don't see any changes right now with an ownership that probably doesn't want to deal with such moves right now. But even if someone up top did care, he'd be given two more years. Last year was the first year that - possibly - someone could put him on the clock. In reality, I think this year is his first year on the clock. If this team still looks much like it does today in 12 months, with little hope of changing it, then we have some issues. He could be 40-42 at the end of next year, but if the team has moved on and has some promising pieces, then Dumars will be safe. But looking at those contracts, it's hard to see how this scenario is going to change. His best chance to do that is through that high draft pick he may receive this offseason. If the Pistons don't hit on that, we can write 30-something wins for next year as well and still see little hope for the near future.

These contracts are just killing us.

[DTroppens]

What's so puzzling about these contracts was about 12 months ago it looked like the Pistons were going to have a lot of clear salary space. They could've plugged in retreads for a year, satisfy their cap needs so they weren't too low and worked on looking toward next offseason and done as well as they've done this year.

Instead they've assembled a team that has about $25 mil of their salary cap NEXT YEAR at the shooting guard position, and have a poor boy's version of Rasheed Wallace playing inside the paint, or better yet taking jumpers from behind the arc. And Charlie V. would have a hard time being a good paint defender in a quality girls prep league, much less the NBA.

For Pete's sake their best player this year has been an aging Ben Wallace.

It's really puzzling. Really puzzling. And, of course, I'm being the armchair QB right now because I didn't say any of this during the offseason. Actually, I didn't know what to say about the offseason one way or the other.


Here is a link to the contracts. It's staggering.
HoopsHype - NBA Salaries - Detroit Pistons

[Elevate]

I don't have much to add... except to the misery. This is very depressing.

I'm still not all that sure that cap space this summer would be a good thing. You see what Joe got last offseason... garbage. Even if he had max cap space he'd come out of it with Joe Johnson and David Lee, aka not exactly championship material (though granted both are better than BG and CV respectively). Either that or he'd pick up a few SGs and claim the NBA is transitioning to a positionless league... My only faith in Joe is that he can make a shrewd trade and get some decent talent moving forward. Because my faith in his free agent shopping is completely shattered.

I'm still holding out hope that he can flip Rip to the Spurs or Celtics for a draft pick and a ball rack. But with every passing day I'm getting closer and closer to S4L's camp. Joe D isn't going anywhere, but if the team isn't heading out of this black hole by this time next year, I'd have no problem with seeing him fired.

[DetroitCity313]

Nice breakdowns here. Sad to see after so many years of competitive ball. It pains me to even watch this team go out there with half the guys giving little effort and the other half with marginal talent.

One thing I will say though, things can turn around- and turn around in a hurry. A top 3 draft pick, swinging a deal for a big man and the development of Stuckey, Daye and Jonas and we could be competitive (atleast for the playoffs) again. I wouldn't be too doom and gloom just because a couple of things could fall into place and leave us in a good spot.

No team has ever been able to sustain competitiveness forever. We have been lucky to have one of the best NBA franchises in the last 30 years and one of the best teams in the 2000s. Just gotta stick it out through the bad years and we will be back.

[sportz4life]

Guys, I didn't address the potential coaching issue because with the mix of talent it's difficult to fairly assess. What I will say, is it could be better..what we haven't addressed is the revolving door history of coaches, it speaks to a bigger deficiency.

Their current style of play, lack of ball movement and nightly question, regarding effort, are concerning.

[DTroppens]

They lack ball movement because they don't have any distributors on this team. Even something as simple as quick ball reversal isn't an instinctual thing for this team.

There isn't a player that you can point out and say "He's an above average passer at his position." Hardly ever do you see the second pass. In fact, I see more second passes by Ben Wallace than anyone on this team.


The effort you could see being an issue. When they were playing hard earlier this year, we all enjoyed watching them play even if they lost. But you had to wonder come Jan/Feb when the losses mounted, would they continue that effort. It's obvious they haven't done that. They take halves off - particularly defensively.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

1.) Because a contract is expiring doesn't make it a good one... It's an allbatross until he moves it...

2) See opportunity cost..it's why I classified Gordon as an asset and a liability. CV is a flat out liability...

3) Two years, I can only imagine the damage after that....

4) I like this logic, "yeah guy's it's an acknowledged **** up, but it's a smaller calliber screw up so it isn't that bad".. Is that like I burned the house down, but I only burned half of it so thats the bright side...

1) A contract is an albatross if you can't get rid of it, not if it's gone in 1 year. By definition, Prince is not an albatross.

2) You're classifying them as liabilities (and Gordon as both). All I'm saying is, I'd rather wait to see if they can improve upon this dismal year, and NOT be liabilities. If they aren't liabilities, they aren't "opportunity costs" or albatross contracts. I know it looks dicey. All I'm saying is I don't want to rush to judgement prematurely.

3) That's why you want Dumars out. I'm imagining bright sunny skies in two years, not a homeless person sleepin' on the sidewalks...

4) So if a light bulb goes out you go into a panic? I'm not saying Maxiell or his contract is a sunny morning, streaming through the living room window. I'm saying he's somewhere closer to a kitchen fire that blackens the ceiling, but that's it; rather than the house burning down. Don't tell me you're trying to collect insurance money on a burned-out house, when you only have a bit of blackened grease soot on your kitchen ceiling.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

1) A contract is an albatross if you can't get rid of it, not if it's gone in 1 year. By definition, Prince is not an albatross.

2) You're classifying them as liabilities (and Gordon as both). All I'm saying is, I'd rather wait to see if they can improve upon this dismal year, and NOT be liabilities. If they aren't liabilities, they aren't "opportunity costs" or albatross contracts. I know it looks dicey. All I'm saying is I don't want to rush to judgement prematurely.

3) That's why you want Dumars out. I'm imagining bright sunny skies in two years, not a homeless person sleepin' on the sidewalks...

4) So if a light bulb goes out you go into a panic? I'm not saying Maxiell or his contract is a sunny morning, streaming through the living room window. I'm saying he's somewhere closer to a kitchen fire that blackens the ceiling, but that's it; rather than the house burning down. Don't tell me you're trying to collect insurance money on a burned-out house, when you only have a bit of blackened grease soot on your kitchen ceiling.

I actually looked up the definition of albatross when I first read this post to make sure I did not misinterpret the post. I am pretty much in agreement with on Prince. By definition, an albatross contract would be one that burdens the team and prevents it from taking action or making progress. Rip and Maxiell's contract are obviously albatross contracts. Tay's might be as well but it is hard to know. It kind of depends on whether other teams are interested in his expiring contract and I don't really have a good feel for that right now.

[DTroppens]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

1) A contract is an albatross if you can't get rid of it, not if it's gone in 1 year. By definition, Prince is not an albatross.

Actually, you can't get rid of it for about 18 months, unless you get a taker. And that's not going to be easy right now. Since that contract can impact what the Pistons can or can't do in the offseason and he's on the downturn of what he provides the Pistons, wouldn't that be an albatross?

I think he is. I don't want to see the Pistons committing over $11 million to a player that has no future on this team next year.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

Actually, you can't get rid of it for about 18 months, unless you get a taker... to a player that has no future on this team next year.

If you want to get technical, it's 14 months. As soon as next year's season ends, he is gone. How is that an albatross contract?

That's like saying before this season started, that Tracy McGrady's contract was an albatross.

No, it's not, because McGrady's contract is finished after this year. Houston has the option of letting it expire, or trading him for a player. Either way, they WILL BE rid of McGrady after this year... unless they decide to sign him to a 7-year, $84 mill extension. Now THAT would be an albatross.

Prince is NOT an albatross contract because, 1 way or ANOTHER, he should be gone in basically, 1 year. In Accounting terms, if the "Useful Life" is a year or less, we just take the cost straight to expense. Prince is: a 1 year "expense", is all...

[DTroppens]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

If you want to get technical, it's 14 months. As soon as next year's season ends, he is gone. How is that an albatross contract?

Exactly for the reason I mentioned. You have the rest of this season and an offseason that it's going to be really hard to move him. And while he's here, he has little value to this team. Of course, maybe Dumars will surprise me and prove me wrong. He probably will to some small extent. I don't see that one-year expense as being minor. The Pistons could use that money this offseason.

Can you make trades during the NBA Finals? I think we are both wrong. It's probably about 16 months.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

If you want to get technical, it's 14 months. As soon as next year's season ends, he is gone. How is that an albatross contract?

That's like saying before this season started, that Tracy McGrady's contract was an albatross.

No, it's not, because McGrady's contract is finished after this year. Houston has the option of letting it expire, or trading him for a player. Either way, they WILL BE rid of McGrady after this year... unless they decide to sign him to a 7-year, $84 mill extension. Now THAT would be an albatross.

Prince is NOT an albatross contract because, 1 way or ANOTHER, he should be gone in basically, 1 year. In Accounting terms, if the "Useful Life" is a year or less, we just take the cost straight to expense. Prince is: a 1 year "expense", is all...

Paying someone $23 million to not play isn't an albatross? It might only be short term but its still an albatross.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

Can you make trades during the NBA Finals? I think we are both wrong. It's probably about 16 months.

Any team whose season is over and not still involved in the playoffs can make trades.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Paying someone $23 million to not play isn't an albatross? It might only be short term but its still an albatross.

It's only albatross if Dumar's could not move it if he wanted to (which I am assuming he does). The moment his contract has value because it is expiring next year, it is no longer albatross. I don't know if that is right now, this summer, or next years trade deadline.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Hart

It's only albatross if Dumar's could not move it if he wanted to (which I am assuming he does). The moment his contract has value because it is expiring next year, it is no longer albatross. I don't know if that is right now, this summer, or next years trade deadline.

Until its gone, its an albatross. Value has nothing to do with it.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Hart

It's only albatross if Dumar's could not move it if he wanted to (which I am assuming he does). The moment his contract has value because it is expiring next year, it is no longer albatross. I don't know if that is right now, this summer, or next years trade deadline.

You guys seem to have an ironic version of usefullness. The idea behind paying a player 11MM a year, is to get significant on court production from that player, when you are reduced to using that moeny as a bartering tool, it's a failure. No other way to classify it, FAILURE.

In addition, if you believe Gordon and CV were wise, toughtful, building blocks then it's shrewd to trust JD to use that cap space to acquire new players, by way of trade or FA.

If you think that Gordon was a frivilous acquisition and CV is the second coming of Terry Mills, you are concerned, if not down right terrified, giving Joe Dumars more money to spend.

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

You guys seem to have an ironic version of usefullness. The idea behind paying a player 11MM a year, is to get significant on court production from that player, when you are reduced to using that moeny as a bartering tool, it's a failure. No other way to classify it, FAILURE.

In addition, if you believe Gordon and CV were wise, toughtful, building blocks then it's shrewd to trust JD to use that cap space to acquire new players, by way of trade or FA.

If you think that Gordon was a frivilous acquisition and CV is the second coming of Terry Mills, you are concerned, if not down right terrified, giving Joe Dumars more money to spend.

S4L raises valid concerns, my only problem with posters like this is they pigeon-hold themselves into one kind of commentary. They will jump on the Pistons when they struggle and will be eerily silent when things are going relatively well. We see it all the time on the Tigers baord. Can you promise going forward when this thing gets turned around you will admit you jumped the gun, just as you will pound away if things happen just as you predict?

You can rest well knowing that everyone here knows you were at the forefront of the Anti-Dumars fan revolt. You can cash that in for admiration when and if Dumars gets canned or leaves due to his own inefficiency.

[84 Lives!!!]

I don't know if this belongs in this thread, or in the Kuester thread (based on where that discussion led to...):

But what I think would be a really cool calculation is career PER or WS's divided by inverse draft position... giving value by player per draft spot.

IE: Lebron PER/100, Darko PER/99, Carmelo PER/98, Bosh PER/97, Wade PER/ 96... all the way down to undrafted FA PER's divided by 1.

That would be a way to evaluate a GM's draft record, wouldn't it? And be able to compare it to any other GM's drafting?

Just a thought...

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

I don't know if this belongs in this thread, or in the Kuester thread (based on where that discussion led to...):

But what I think would be a really cool calculation is career PER or WS's divided by inverse draft position... giving value by player per draft spot.

IE: Lebron PER/100, Darko PER/99, Carmelo PER/98, Bosh PER/97, Wade PER/ 96... all the way down to undrafted FA PER's divided by 1.

That would be a way to evaluate a GM's draft record, wouldn't it? And be able to compare it to any other GM's drafting?

Just a thought...

Why..it would likely make Gilbert Arenas the most valuable player in history

[billms]

How bad are the Pistons? The Pistons are so bad Joe D thought about lacing them back up but decided the team couldn't afford to lose any players to practice injuries.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Until its gone, its an albatross. Value has nothing to do with it.

This may only be semantics, but I think your definition of albatross is WRONG. An albatross is a long-term overvalued (overpaid) commitment that you can NOT escape from. If the commitment is NOT multi-year, then it is a short-term LOSS, not a short-term albatross.

By DEFINITION, Prince is not an albatross. He may be a Failure. A Loss. An Expense. A Zero Value. Useless. etc., etc... but albatross is semantically incorrect.

Originally Posted by sportz4life

You guys seem to have an ironic version of usefulness. The idea behind paying a player 11MM a year, is to get significant on court production from that player, when you are reduced to using that moeny as a bartering tool, it's a failure. No other way to classify it, FAILURE...

This is what I can agree with. McGrady in '09/10 is a failure. Useless. Etc. Just like Prince on 2010/11 Pistons = Useless, Failure, Overpaid, etc., etc.

But he is not an ALBATROSS because after 2010/11 season, NEXT YEAR, he is gone, adios, finito, finis, bon voyage, ariva derce (sp?).

Goodbye Prince. So long. See ya'... don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out...

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

Why..it would likely make Gilbert Arenas the most valuable player in history

Fine.

But no, not the most valuable player.

The most value given per draft position.

Sort of like Kiper and his constant yapping about "VALUE".

What is wrong with seeing how much value a player has provided relative to draft position? You're not afraid of that, are you?

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

This may only be semantics, but I think your definition of albatross is WRONG. An albatross is a long-term overvalued (overpaid) commitment that you can NOT escape from. If the commitment is NOT multi-year, then it is a short-term LOSS, not a short-term albatross.

By DEFINITION, Prince is not an albatross. He may be a Failure. A Loss. An Expense. A Zero Value. Useless. etc., etc... but albatross is semantically incorrect.



This is what I can agree with. McGrady in '09/10 is a failure. Useless. Etc. Just like Prince on 2010/11 Pistons = Useless, Failure, Overpaid, etc., etc.

But he is not an ALBATROSS because after 2010/11 season, NEXT YEAR, he is gone, adios, finito, finis, bon voyage, ariva derce (sp?).

Goodbye Prince. So long. See ya'... don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out...

Main Entry: al·ba·tross

2 a : something that causes persistent deep concern or anxiety b : something that greatly hinders accomplishment :

Paying Prince $11 million next year greatly hinders any accomplishment the Pistons wish to make. I know exactly what the meaning is. You are the one trying to change it by saying it has to be X amount of time, when that is not true at all. I already said he isn't a long term problem, but short term he still is.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Fine.

But no, not the most valuable player.

The most value given per draft position.

Sort of like Kiper and his constant yapping about "VALUE".

What is wrong with seeing how much value a player has provided relative to draft position? You're not afraid of that, are you?

Afraid..afraid of what..your gonna make up a poorly conceived metric..I like that, I use real numbers, you invent your evidence..reminds me of my youth..and my parents were none to happy about these habits..

There is a huge difference between football and basketball

There is a slotting system in basketbal,l which keep teams from spending 50MM on their unproven first rounder..or we would have purchased Darko a small country, plus there are only 60 players drafted instead of 234. It sort of skews the method of the 84L basketball value metric..

But hey..I dont want to supress your creative side..Basketball SABR metrics are pretty complex, they are based on production per minurte, +/-, what areas on the floor points are scored from, pace of game, total possession, point per posession.. etc..draft position isn't on the list..go read the article I posted on Daryl Morey. I obviously have no respect for this energing science.

Can we discuss basebeall..the conversation are considerably more productive..

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Until its gone, its an albatross. Value has nothing to do with it.

You need to look up the word albatross. It is different than than bad. And you are right, value has nothing to do with it (at least as far as player's value is concerned). Ray Allen's contract is bad but not albatross.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Main Entry: al·ba·tross

2 a : something that causes persistent deep concern or anxiety b : something that greatly hinders accomplishment :

Paying Prince $11 million next year greatly hinders any accomplishment the Pistons wish to make. I know exactly what the meaning is. You are the one trying to change it by saying it has to be X amount of time, when that is not true at all. I already said he isn't a long term problem, but short term he still is.

Okay...I see you did look it up already. So I will add to my previous post. Like I said earlier, it's only albatross if the expiring contract has no value to other teams. As long as his expiring contract has value, then he is not impeding future progress because the Pistons have the choice to move it if they so desire. If then can't move his expiring contract, then it is albatross.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Main Entry: al·ba·tross

2 a : something that causes persistent deep concern or anxiety b : something that greatly hinders accomplishment :

Paying Prince $11 million next year greatly hinders any accomplishment the Pistons wish to make. ...

Definition of "Persistent":

1) continuing despite problems: tenaciously or obstinately continuing despite problems or difficulties

2) incessant or unrelenting: existing or continuing for an unpleasantly long time.

After the 2010/11 season, Prince's contract will no longer "PERSIST".


And... "Prince $11 mill greatly hinders any accomplishment...". Really? So you were expecting some serious accomplishments in 2011? And any accomlishments you are expecting can only happen in 2011? And you're not even counting that Dumars COULD do something with Prince's expiring contract in 2011, if he so wished?

Are you expecting the world to end in 2012?

Because if not, Prince's contract gives us NO hindrance to any accomplishments Dumars may wish to make with the new-found salary cap space (& Wilcox's), beginning in the 2011 offseason.

PS: If 2010/11 with Prince is really causing you so much persistent agony... just take a year off or so... and you'll feel better after that!

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Hart

Okay...I see you did look it up already. So I will add to my previous post. Like I said earlier, it's only albatross if the expiring contract has no value to other teams. As long as his expiring contract has value, then he is not impeding future progress because the Pistons have the choice to move it if they so desire. If then can't move his expiring contract, then it is albatross.

Question, is the fact they aren't playing Daye and Jerebkjo as much as they could, plus they pay him $846,153 every 2 weeks for 13 pay periods and their record is 17-32, make him an allbatros.

[Truth]

I don't share sportz4life's view of Dumars during the string of ECF's appearances but at the moment he named Curry head coach I think he began a free fall that he has yet to pull himself out of. In fact he has only continued to compound his mistakes.

I'm sure as heck not going to argue that I know more about basketball than Dumars. Still, after he decided he was done with Flip and the core, I can't imagine that I would have played that hand more poorly than he seems to have done.

1. Signing Curry
2. Announcing Stuckey as the PG of the future
3. Trading Billups for an expiring contract
4. Extending Rip
5. Failing to get something for Rasheed or McDyess last season when it was clear the
Pistons were done.
6. Realizing at the end of last season that Stuckey was more of a combo guard
7. Signing an undersized SG to a fat contract (one who didn't get another offer) when
he had both Rip and Stuckey on the roster