How Bad are the Pistons

[DTroppens]

Well, I think I know what albatross means. Today did have value.

Or do I? I'm not really sure.

No matter what, unless Joey D can unload Prince that's a painful contract to look at. It's not like looking at Rip's, but it does make me sick.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

Well, I think I know what albatross means. Today did have value.

Or do I? I'm not really sure.

No matter what, unless Joey D can unload Prince that's a painful contract to look at. It's not like looking at Rip's, but it does make me sick.

I wanna see these two guys explain how Rip's contract isn't an allbatros..

I'm still confiused how they dont understand Dumars isn't doing a bad job..I wonder when he resigns and says" I'm not getting the job done" if they'll argue with him??

[DTroppens]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

I wanna see these two guys explain how Rip's contract isn't an allbatros..

I'm still confiused how they dont understand Dumars isn't doing a bad job..I wonder when he resigns and says" I'm not getting the job done" if they'll argue with him??

The one thing Joe sold us about this team is that "It's going to score points." The freakin' team doesn't even have a point guard to help distribute the ball to get those points.

I think we are in two different camps here though. I think Joe still has time. I think his past successes only commands that he gets time to get himself out of this mess. Will he do it? I don't know. I don't profess to know. But I don't think his clock is chiming midnight right now. He's still deserves a shot to pull the team out of this scenario he has created.

I probably don't have any right to gripe one way or the other. Besides the Maxi contract, I really never went on the record being anti- any of these moves. I didn't know enough about Charlie V to say anything about that and how Gordon was going to work into the lineup, so I just stayed quiet and admitted as much. I did say the Iverson deal wasn't a bad deal because even if it failed it gave the Pistons the ability to use some great cap space and it was what D did with that space that would determine much about that move. So far he's struck out on 1) Iverson fitting in and 2) the decisions he's made with that cap space.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I wanted to wait on something more substanative than this for my 5,000th post, but whatever - it isn't as if my other 4,999 posts have been a treasure trove of useful information.

And, true to form, I'll use my typical format...

a. I think the term albatross is a fair one. The reason being is that in the short term, it both renders Prince untradeable and limits the Pistons ability to improve the team via FA signings. In one year it will cease to be an albatross. All contracts cease to be an albatross at some point, so the fact it ceases to be an albatross means little to me. As an Economics professor once said to me, 'The short term is really what is important and interesting to me. In the long term, we are all dead.'

B. That stated, are we really arguing over the meaning of the word albatross? I am sorry, but if that isn't focusing on the tree and missing the forest, I don't know what is. The point is valid - Prince's contract is not a good one now, and it hinders the Pistons in 2010 and 2011. Whether or not it can be called an albatross or not isn't terribly relevant, IMO. It contributes to the payroll bind the Pistons are in right now.

c. I don't really care what anyone thinks of my rationale outlined in a. If you don't think it is an albatross, great. If you do, great. The fact is the Pistons are in a crappy position right now, and terming Prince's contract an albatross (or not) changes nothing, nor does it change sportz4life's analysis in a meaningful or significant way.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I wanted to wait on something more substanative than this for my 5,000th post, but whatever - it isn't as if my other 4,999 posts have been a treasure trove of useful information.

And, true to form, I'll use my typical format...

a. Are we really arguing over the meaning of the word albatross? I am sorry, but if that isn't focusing on the tree and missing the forest, I don't know what is. The point is valid - Prince's contract is not a good one now, and it hinders the Pistons in 2010 and 2011. Whether or not it can be called an albatross or not isn't terribly relevant, IMO. It contributes to the payroll bind the Pistons are in right now.

b. That stated, I think the term albatross is a fair one. The reason being is that in the short term, it both renders Prince untradeable and limits the Pistons ability to improve the team via FA signings. In one year it will cease to be an albatross. All contracts cease to be an albatross at some point, so the fact it ceases to be an albatross means little to me. As an Economics professor once said to me, 'The short term is really what is important and interesting to me. In the long term, we are all dead.'

c. I don't really care what anyone thinks of the logic laid out in b. If you don't think it is an albatross, great. If you do, great. The fact is the Pistons are in a crappy position right now, and terming Prince's contract an albatross or not changes nothing.

Very nice Sean, very nice..

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

...But hey..I dont want to supress your creative side...

Thank you.

If you know my baseball side... then you know I get pretty creative with making "out-of-LF" stats (modified-OPS, correlation of OE% to OPS, etc...).

So here goes:

I took Avg PER per season, and WS per season (straight-line total divided by years); which I will say in advance that any years lost partially to injury, to backup versus starter status, etc... costs the player, and divided by 100 minus draft position (LeBron is 100-1 or 99, Darko 100-2 = 98, Marc Gasol 100-47 = 53, etc...), multiplied by 100.

This basically leaves the #1 draft pick pretty much unchanged, and slowly increases the "draft value" of lower picks' WS's and PER.

Sportz, if you don't care about these #'s, you are not required to comment if you don't wish to. Perhaps others will find this interesting. Or not.

My findings are VSS ("Value Shares per Season, based on WS's/seasons-draft adjusted) and DVP (Draft value weighted PER):

Player  Drafted   VSS     DVP
M Gasol  (48)   12.40    35.00
A Bynum  (10)    4.67    20.44
M Okur   (37)   10.32    27.46
Stuckey  (15)    3.18    17.53
Prince   (23)    7.58    19.35

LeBron   (1)    14.13    26.97
Darko    (2)     0.92    12.86
Carmelo  (3)     6.82    20.72
Bosh     (4)     8.96    22.19
Wade     (5)     9.67    26.74
Kaman    (6)     2.67    15.21
Arenas   (30)    8.00    29.43

[sinister porpoise]

The team is really bad right now but I am not so negative on their future. Really the only serious albatross I see is Rip's contract. Dump him for anything and add a premium lottery team and this team looks a lot better.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

Question, is the fact they aren't playing Daye and Jerebkjo as much as they could, plus they pay him $846,153 every 2 weeks for 13 pay periods and their record is 17-32, make him an allbatros.

That is a very good point. I do believe that by playing Prince over Jerebko and Daye, the Pistons are hindering their future progress. But that is a choice that Kuester (and maybe Dumars) is making that I do not think needs to be made. They have the choice to bench Tayshaun. Can they bench Tayshaun and still have the option of trading his expiring contract? If the answer is no to that, then the contract is undoubtedly albatross. I don't know that this is the case for sure though.

IMO, the contract is albatross until this summer. My guess is there are no takers at this year's deadline for the contract. And that does hinder the Pistons from making other trades and having the ability to take back salary (although I don't know that this would be a good rebuilding strategy anyways.)

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

...I think the term albatross is a fair one. The reason being is that in the short term, it both renders Prince untradeable and limits the Pistons ability to improve the team via FA signings. In one year it will cease to be an albatross. ...it hinders the Pistons in 2010 and 2011. ...nor does it change sportz4life's analysis in a meaningful or significant way.

I cut this down to what I thought were relavent points I'd like to respond to:

1) Untradeable? First off, we don't know that until after the trade deadline. Only then, and in between this trade deadline and the signing of the 2010 FA's, will his contract be untradeable. However, immediately afterwards, he will become EMINENTLY tradeable as an "expiring contract" for the 2011 offseason. I mean, do you guys actually follow basketball? I'm not trying to be a prick, and I'm no basketball stat expert, and you guys seem to be... which tells me that you'all KNOW that as soon as FA's are signed in the offseason, that expiring contracts are then the most valuable players sought after. That does not make Prince "the MOST valuable contract" this September (7 months away), but it CERTAINLY doesn't make him "UNTRADEABLE" either.

2) I believe you guys are WAY overstating the problem with Prince's contract. PRIOR to the START of the 2010/11 he will be tradeable, an expiring contract, and gone if Joe finds something he likes for Prince (& Wilcox). AT WORST, he will be gone after the 2011 season. So he ONLY affects ONE season: 2010/11.

3) That stated, are we seriously arguing over ONE SEASON? This is the monstrous ALBATROSS to the REST of the Detroit Pistons FUTURE, for ALL OF ETERNITY? We're talking about ONLY the 2010/11 season, right? Because Prince is gone, without an extension, either (a) PRIOR to the 2010/11 season in a trade, (b) AT the 2010/11 trade deadline, or, WORST CASE SCENARIO: (c) in the 2011 OFFSEASON. His contract does NOT affect the 2011/12 season

4) It does NOT hinder the Pistons in 2011, Mr. Bigglesworth. You are incorrect.

5) By YOUR definition, EVERY contract that goes through at least the 2010/11 offseason, ON EVERY TEAM, is an albatross, right? I mean, Stuckey's contract ALSO hinders us from signing 2010 FA's...

6) Sportz has an agenda. His mission is to make everything Dumars does look as horrible as possible. He's like T-Rok's anti-DD agenda, in that regard.

Hence, I would look at his anti-Dumars rants with a critical eye, rather than offer cheap passes because it sounds good. That doesn't mean that every point he makes is incorrect. In fact he makes some very good points. But it STILL requires critical analysis.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

I wanna see these two guys explain how Rip's contract isn't an allbatros..

I'm still confiused how they dont understand Dumars isn't doing a bad job..I wonder when he resigns and says" I'm not getting the job done" if they'll argue with him??

I'm certainly on board with calling Rip's contract an albatross.

If CV and Gordon don't improve, theirs too (it's just too early for me to do that.)

Listen, I'm not gonna call every move Joe makes "golden", he certainly isn't anywhere close to perfect. Maybe he's not even 50/50.

But I've seen him build a competitive, winning team, out of TABLESCRAPS before. And I'm willing to give him a couple years just TO SEE if we aren't prematurely judging all of his recent moves as "bad".

But if he resigns and says "I'm not getting the job done", I won't argue.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Hart

Okay...I see you did look it up already. So I will add to my previous post. Like I said earlier, it's only albatross if the expiring contract has no value to other teams. As long as his expiring contract has value, then he is not impeding future progress because the Pistons have the choice to move it if they so desire. If then can't move his expiring contract, then it is albatross.

He is impeding the progress next year. He is taking up 1 roster spot and 1/5th of the teams salary cap and providing next to nothing in return. That is a massive albatross next year. It doesn't matter if someone might take it off Detroits hands 3/4 of the way through the season or if it expires at the end of the year. For the 2011 season his contract is a massive albatross.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

He is impeding the progress next year. He is taking up 1 roster spot and 1/5th of the teams salary cap and providing next to nothing in return. That is a massive albatross next year. It doesn't matter if someone might take it off Detroits hands 3/4 of the way through the season or if it expires at the end of the year. For the 2011 season his contract is a massive albatross.

Not if he gets traded PRIOR to the 2010/11 season... "expiring contract".

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Definition of "Persistent":

1) continuing despite problems: tenaciously or obstinately continuing despite problems or difficulties

2) incessant or unrelenting: existing or continuing for an unpleasantly long time.

After the 2010/11 season, Prince's contract will no longer "PERSIST".


And... "Prince $11 mill greatly hinders any accomplishment...". Really? So you were expecting some serious accomplishments in 2011? And any accomlishments you are expecting can only happen in 2011? And you're not even counting that Dumars COULD do something with Prince's expiring contract in 2011, if he so wished?

Are you expecting the world to end in 2012?

Because if not, Prince's contract gives us NO hindrance to any accomplishments Dumars may wish to make with the new-found salary cap space (& Wilcox's), beginning in the 2011 offseason.

PS: If 2010/11 with Prince is really causing you so much persistent agony... just take a year off or so... and you'll feel better after that!

What?

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Not if he gets traded PRIOR to the 2010/11 season... "expiring contract".

Are you ****ing kidding me?

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

What?

What are you asking about?

You gave the definition of "albatross", and informed me that it has NOTHING to do with time:

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Main Entry: al·ba·tross

2 a : something that causes persistent deep concern or anxiety ...

...You are the one trying to change it by saying it has to be X amount of time, when that is not true at all...

And I gave you the definition of persistant:

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Definition of "Persistent":

...2) incessant or unrelenting: existing or continuing for an unpleasantly long time.

...

Guess what? Albatross means "causes deep concern for an unpleasantly long time".

I'll be glad to answer any further questions you have on the matter.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

He is impeding the progress next year. He is taking up 1 roster spot and 1/5th of the teams salary cap and providing next to nothing in return. That is a massive albatross next year. It doesn't matter if someone might take it off Detroits hands 3/4 of the way through the season or if it expires at the end of the year. For the 2011 season his contract is a massive albatross.

Well, then we just have a different definition of impeding progress. I do not believe it is impeding progress if you have the option to trade him. If you can trade him at anytime because somebody wants his expiring contract, then I do not see how that impedes our progress.

Let me ask you this: is Ray Allen's contract albatross right now? Is Tracy McGrady's contract albatross?

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Hart

Well, then we just have a different definition of impeding progress. I do not believe it is impeding progress if you have the option to trade him. If you can trade him at anytime because somebody wants his expiring contract, then I do not see how that impedes our progress.

Let me ask you this: is Ray Allen's contract albatross right now? Is Tracy McGrady's contract albatross?

God yes McGradys is! You are paying him $23 million to do NOTHING. How cant it be an albatross? Ray Allen is a starter on a championship contender. How on earth could you consider that an albatross? He is helping them compete, something Prince and McGrady don't do. One cause of injury and one cause he sucks.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Are you ****ing kidding me?

So are you telling me that an expiring contract has NEVER been traded prior to the start of a season? Prior to the trade deadline? (Wasn't AI traded for within the first few games of last season?)

(I'm trying to read the EXACT meaning of those stars in your post... sorry I'm not experienced with those... I'm doing the best I can...!!!)

Am I telling you something that you don't know?

My point stands. After FA's are signed this offseason, Prince's expiring contract, along with Wilcox's, will be in demand.

That doesn't say Dumars will get a trade offer that he likes, it doesn't guarantee that Prince gets traded prior to the season, and it doesn't mean we won't have to live with Prince until the 2011 offseason... but it doesn't make him untradeable either, does it?

There is at least the POSSIBILITY he could be traded prior to the start of the 2010 season. Correct?

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

What are you asking about?

You gave the definition of "albatross", and informed me that it has NOTHING to do with time:



And I gave you the definition of persistant:



Guess what? Albatross means "causes deep concern for an unpleasantly long time".

I'll be glad to answer any further questions you have on the matter.

OK, now how about use the second definition. You know, the one highlighted.

[84 Lives!!!]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

OK, now how about use the second definition. You know, the one highlighted.

I answered that one too. In the rest of my post that you quoted.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

I answered that one too. In the rest of my post that you quoted.

Then you should know by Prince being on the roster, he hinders the rebuilding process. He does that by eating a roster spot for an old and not talented player. He does that be eating up 1/5th of the teams salary cap.

[ScrubBeaterUpper]

You can't seperate the time element from the proverbial albatross, in the poem about the mariner, the albatross had to be worn indefinatley, or until everyone on the ship died. That's why it sucks.

You can argue all night what is or is not an albatross contract. There is no set definiton if you metaphorically apply it to NBA contracts! Pretty deep I know.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

So are you telling me that an expiring contract has NEVER been traded prior to the start of a season? Prior to the trade deadline? (Wasn't AI traded for within the first few games of last season?)

(I'm trying to read the EXACT meaning of those stars in your post... sorry I'm not experienced with those... I'm doing the best I can...!!!)

Am I telling you something that you don't know?

My point stands. After FA's are signed this offseason, Prince's expiring contract, along with Wilcox's, will be in demand.

That doesn't say Dumars will get a trade offer that he likes, it doesn't guarantee that Prince gets traded prior to the season, and it doesn't mean we won't have to live with Prince until the 2011 offseason... but it doesn't make him untradeable either, does it?

There is at least the POSSIBILITY he could be traded prior to the start of the 2010 season. Correct?

Ugh. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be traded this summer. I'm not talking about him being traded at all. I'm saying right now Prince is signed with the Pistons next year. That hinders the rebuilding process. If/when Prince is no longer with the Pistons, he will no longer be an albatross.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

God yes McGradys is! You are paying him $23 million to do NOTHING. How cant it be an albatross? Ray Allen is a starter on a championship contender. How on earth could you consider that an albatross? He is helping them compete, something Prince and McGrady don't do. One cause of injury and one cause he sucks.

Well then, that explains our different points of view. Albatross, IMO, is not directly related to a players output. It is more based on that player's situation and how it affects the teams ability to improve in the future. I would not consider McGrady or Allen's contract albatross because those teams could trade those contracts right now and probably get better talent in return. In fact, McGrady's contract is actually the opposite of albatross. They have a chance to trade McGrady in a deal to acquire Iguodala...and that, my friend, is progress.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Hart

Well then, that explains our different points of view. Albatross, IMO, is not directly related to a players output. It is more based on that player's situation and how it affects the teams ability to improve in the future. I would not consider McGrady or Allen's contract albatross because those teams could trade those contracts right now and probably get better talent in return. In fact, McGrady's contract is actually the opposite of albatross. They have a chance to trade McGrady in a deal to acquire Iguodala...and that, my friend, is progress.

Then there has never been a contract in pro sports that is an albatross. Because in theory, any player can be moved for anyone at anytime.

[Hart]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Then there has never been a contract in pro sports that is an albatross. Because in theory, any player can be moved for anyone at anytime.

Disagree. Rip has an albatross contract right now because his contract could not be used to improve this team. In fact, it is hindering the ability of Dumars to improve this team. Tayshaun likely has an albatross contract right now as well. But I do think, come summertime, or at the very least next year's trade deadline, the albatross tag can be taken off Prince.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Hart

Disagree. Rip has an albatross contract right now because his contract could not be used to improve this team. In fact, it is hindering the ability of Dumars to improve this team. Tayshaun likely has an albatross contract right now as well. But I do think, come summertime, or at the very least next year's trade deadline, the albatross tag can be taken off Prince.

This goes back to my earlier post. As long as the contract is held by the Detroit Pistons, he is an albatross. It doesn't matter if he could be traded, or could be anything.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 84 Lives!!!

Thank you.

If you know my baseball side... then you know I get pretty creative with making "out-of-LF" stats (modified-OPS, correlation of OE% to OPS, etc...).

So here goes:

I took Avg PER per season, and WS per season (straight-line total divided by years); which I will say in advance that any years lost partially to injury, to backup versus starter status, etc... costs the player, and divided by 100 minus draft position (LeBron is 100-1 or 99, Darko 100-2 = 98, Marc Gasol 100-47 = 53, etc...), multiplied by 100.

This basically leaves the #1 draft pick pretty much unchanged, and slowly increases the "draft value" of lower picks' WS's and PER.

Sportz, if you don't care about these #'s, you are not required to comment if you don't wish to. Perhaps others will find this interesting. Or not.

My findings are VSS ("Value Shares per Season, based on WS's/seasons-draft adjusted) and DVP (Draft value weighted PER):

Player  Drafted   VSS     DVP
M Gasol  (48)   12.40    35.00
A Bynum  (10)    4.67    20.44
M Okur   (37)   10.32    27.46
Stuckey  (15)    3.18    17.53
Prince   (23)    7.58    19.35

LeBron   (1)    14.13    26.97
Darko    (2)     0.92    12.86
Carmelo  (3)     6.82    20.72
Bosh     (4)     8.96    22.19
Wade     (5)     9.67    26.74
Kaman    (6)     2.67    15.21
Arenas   (30)    8.00    29.43

A players win shares are somewhat related to their teams amount of wins. For basketball, a teams wins will be about the same as all of its players win shares added up. So a player lets say on the Nets, doesn't even have a shot at accumulating as many win shares as say someone that plays for Denver. So New Jersey has approximately 4 win shares to split among its roster and Denver has 34.

To show you what I mean. Ty Lawson has 3.3 win shares and Devin Harris has 1. Lawson isn't a better player than Harris and certainly not 3x better.

I don't think its a good stat to include in a formula when trying to determine the value of a players skills.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

What difference does it make whether one terms Prince's contract an albatross or not? It doesn't freaking matter. It has no bearing on the initial analysis or its conclusions.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

A players win shares are somewhat related to their teams amount of wins. For basketball, a teams wins will be about the same as all of its players win shares added up. So a player lets say on the Nets, doesn't even have a shot at accumulating as many win shares as say someone that plays for Denver. So New Jersey has approximately 4 win shares to split among its roster and Denver has 34.

To show you what I mean. Ty Lawson has 3.3 win shares and Devin Harris has 1. Lawson isn't a better player than Harris and certainly not 3x better.

I don't think its a good stat to include in a formula when trying to determine the value of a players skills.

<doh>

[DTroppens]

If the Pistons could clap their hands and Prince and his contract would magically disappear, I think they'd do it. That's certainly not a sign of great value.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

If the Pistons could clap their hands and Prince and his contract would magically disappear, I think they'd do it. That's certainly not a sign of great value.

I suspect , they have tried this and my be actively trying this daily, at 6 Championship Drive.

<clap>, <clap> lets all try it..damn still here..

[DTroppens]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

I suspect , they have tried this and my be actively trying this daily, at 6 Championship Drive.

<clap>, <clap> lets all try it..damn still here..

I think it takes a little more effort than that. I think it may be

Clap, clap, snap the fingers, spin in a circle, and clap again.

I hear this will work at getting the Sun Messengers out of the Palace as well.
I think I've heard them sing Morris Day songs live more than I've heard Morris Day on the radio.

To get rid of Rip, it may involve voodoo dolls and a few other rituals you can find on underground websites.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

I think it takes a little more effort than that. I think it may be

Clap, clap, snap the fingers, spin in a circle, and clap again.

I hear this will work at getting the Sun Messengers out of the Palace as well.
I think I've heard them sing Morris Day songs live more than I've heard Morris Day on the radio.

To get rid of Rip, it may involve voodoo dolls and a few other rituals you can find on underground websites.

This Morris Day idea is actually brilliant..however I am not convinced Morris and Jerome don't currenlty comprise the Pistons collegiate scouting department.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!]

Maybe if we try up up down down left right left right b a select start, it might work....

[DTroppens]

Originally Posted by El Gato Pollo Loco!!

Maybe if we try up up down down left right left right b a select start, it might work....

Anything beyond one joystick and two buttons the video game is beyond my abilities.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!]

Originally Posted by DTroppens

Anything beyond one joystick and two buttons the video game is beyond my abilities.

Good thing it only requires that.

[DrWho17]

Tayshaun is an albatross, his contract is probably an asset, and becomes more of an asset as time goes on. Hamilton could be traded as well, maybe not for equal value but teams like Cleveland/Boston/Toronto would love to have him.

[Buddha]

Was Prince's contract a bad one when he signed it? Seemed to be around market value to me. Plus, the team was in the middle of its run and Prince was a big part of that.

I have no problem with the Prince contract. He's certainly not worth the money now, but players age. It happens to a lot of players and teams: you sign a player to compete now, and when he gets older the contract looks worse because the player isn't as good anymore.

Next year they'll be able to move it.

Hamilton's contract is the perplexing one, not Prince's.

[sinister porpoise]

Looking at his stats, last year was probably Tayshaun's second best season of his career. We can debate how far his defense has fallen off but he probably has a lot more left in the tank than he has shown this year (injury)

Tayshaun Prince Career Statistics - Detroit Pistons - ESPN