ESPN: Thibodeau added to candidate list

[NotoriousCPC]

Not sure if this is accurate, posturing from the Pistons front office in negotiating with Johnson or what, but it is interesting none the less:

Dumars, though, told the Detroit News that it is "not a given" that Johnson will be hired as Curry's replacement, with sources telling ESPN.com that Dumars has added Boston Celtics associate head coach Tom Thibodeau to an original list of candidates that featured Collins, Johnson and Cleveland Cavaliers assistant coach John Kuester.

Kuester and Thibodeau have no head-coaching experience in the NBA, which appeared to clash with Dumars' recent declaration that he thinks it is "best to move forward with a more experienced coach." It wasn't immediately clear Friday night if the Pistons have requested permission from either Kuester's or Thibodeau's current teams to speak with them.

[Deleterious]

He would be my #1 choice by far.

[Porcelain God]

Oh please please go for TT. Avery Johnson is MC part two, Fratello is Collins part two. Laimbeer, no explanation.

[NotoriousCPC]

While TT obviously has a great history as a defensive mastermind that doesn't necessarily indicate he could be a good head coach. We don't know anything about his ability to make substitutions, draw up offensive sets, juggle minutes, manage egos, etc. He would certainly fly in the face of Dumars' stated desire for a coach with experience to guide a young group. But, as we have seen with Dumars over the years he has the ability to make bold moves.

[Deleterious]

At some point you have to try and find the next up and comer and not keep recycling the garbage that has already failed. You can hire an assistant to run the offense like Kuester does for Brown in Cleveland.

This is different than hiring some guy with only 1 year as an assistant on his resume. TT was a head coach in college (Salem State) and has 19 years in the NBA. He has been on team who went to and won the finals, so he knows about pressure. If you hire a guy without any NBA head coaching experience, this is the type of guy you hire.

[NotoriousCPC]

I agree with you, but I'm just saying that the move is far from a no-brainer. And I know that AJ has a fair share of detractors, but if we're defining "garbage that has already failed" as somone with a .740 winning percentage and a guy who made it to the NBA Finals, then there are a lot of failures out there. I'm not saying I'd rather have Johnson necessarily, but I think that the choice is far from a slam dunk on either side.

[Deleterious]

The winning percentage is nice. But the meltdown in the first round is a joke. A JV coach knows better then to do what he did. Plus on the radio today, they said 6 or 7 guys went to Mav's management and said fire him or trade me. Then Dirk calling him a dictator...just not what I want here.

Not sure its going to matter anyway. I read on ESPN that Dumars is going to see Johnson this weekend, so it looks like that is his target.

[Betrayer]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Plus on the radio today, they said 6 or 7 guys went to Mav's management and said fire him or trade me. Then Dirk calling him a dictator...just not what I want here.

You may be right, but looking at it from a different perspective, I don't know....

I mean, look at who their previous coach was and how they played. That team played with no discipline, no defense, and no heart. Then Avery comes in and lays down the law, makes people accountable, and tries to make them play defense. I'm sure they were angry about it. Just like I'm sure that's exactly what this Pistons team needs a dose of. We haven't had discipline here since LB left.

I'm not excusing his 1st round meltdown - maybe he's learned something from it - but maybe there's more to these rumors than meets the eye. A hardass coach doesn't sit well with a bunch of pampered stars who've been running their own show for years. Naturally, they aren't going to be happy about it. They tried to instill a new identity and a new coach without moving out any of the old stars. Naturally you're going to have conflicts of personality there.

These Pistons are not the Mavs. If you can move Rip, you have no fat cats left thinking they know what's best. Prince is the only true leftover at that point and he's a high IQ guy that knows how to fall into line. A dictator can work well to bring this team back to the "going to work" identity.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

You may be right, but looking at it from a different perspective, I don't know....

I mean, look at who their previous coach was and how they played. That team played with no discipline, no defense, and no heart. Then Avery comes in and lays down the law, makes people accountable, and tries to make them play defense. I'm sure they were angry about it. Just like I'm sure that's exactly what this Pistons team needs a dose of. We haven't had discipline here since LB left.

I'm not excusing his 1st round meltdown - maybe he's learned something from it - but maybe there's more to these rumors than meets the eye. A hardass coach doesn't sit well with a bunch of pampered stars who've been running their own show for years. Naturally, they aren't going to be happy about it. They tried to instill a new identity and a new coach without moving out any of the old stars. Naturally you're going to have conflicts of personality there.

These Pistons are not the Mavs. If you can move Rip, you have no fat cats left thinking they know what's best. Prince is the only true leftover at that point and he's a high IQ guy that knows how to fall into line. A dictator can work well to bring this team back to the "going to work" identity.

I dont agree with any of this. Players respect a coach who can coach, end of story. LB is one of the biggest pricks of all time, and players love him. He yells at you on the sideline, in the timeout huddle, and tells the media how bad you are during the post game presser.

The problem with AJ is, he cant coach. Up 2-0 in the NBA finals, Wade is absolutely shredding you...maybe a double team is in order? No! Lets keep doubling Shaq as Wade continues dropping 40 points on you every game. No need to double team someone like that. Late in game 6, Dallas is loaded with offensive stars, and who gets the key play run for them? Eric Dampier on the pick and roll baby! The same Dampier who makes Kwame Brown look like Jerry Rice when it comes to catching the ball. By the way, yes Dampier fumbled the pass out of bounds.

I can go on and on with crap like this during AJ's time as a coach. He learned from his first round mistake? Are you serious? Are you really going to tell me a NBA coach needs to learn that when you are 25 games better than the other team, you don't adjust your game to them? Really?

So go ahead and bring in AJ. I have no doubt he will make the Pistons play with passion and toughness and the D will improve. But as soon as the players figure out AJ cant coach, forget it. It will be like blood in the water for sharks.

[djhutch]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

You may be right, but looking at it from a different perspective, I don't know....

I mean, look at who their previous coach was and how they played. That team played with no discipline, no defense, and no heart. Then Avery comes in and lays down the law, makes people accountable, and tries to make them play defense. I'm sure they were angry about it. Just like I'm sure that's exactly what this Pistons team needs a dose of. We haven't had discipline here since LB left.

I'm not excusing his 1st round meltdown - maybe he's learned something from it - but maybe there's more to these rumors than meets the eye. A hardass coach doesn't sit well with a bunch of pampered stars who've been running their own show for years. Naturally, they aren't going to be happy about it. They tried to instill a new identity and a new coach without moving out any of the old stars. Naturally you're going to have conflicts of personality there.

These Pistons are not the Mavs. If you can move Rip, you have no fat cats left thinking they know what's best. Prince is the only true leftover at that point and he's a high IQ guy that knows how to fall into line. A dictator can work well to bring this team back to the "going to work" identity.

Originally Posted by Deleterious

I dont agree with any of this. Players respect a coach who can coach, end of story. LB is one of the biggest pricks of all time, and players love him. He yells at you on the sideline, in the timeout huddle, and tells the media how bad you are during the post game presser.

The problem with AJ is, he cant coach. Up 2-0 in the NBA finals, Wade is absolutely shredding you...maybe a double team is in order? No! Lets keep doubling Shaq as Wade continues dropping 40 points on you every game. No need to double team someone like that. Late in game 6, Dallas is loaded with offensive stars, and who gets the key play run for them? Eric Dampier on the pick and roll baby! The same Dampier who makes Kwame Brown look like Jerry Rice when it comes to catching the ball. By the way, yes Dampier fumbled the pass out of bounds.

I can go on and on with crap like this during AJ's time as a coach. He learned from his first round mistake? Are you serious? Are you really going to tell me a NBA coach needs to learn that when you are 25 games better than the other team, you don't adjust your game to them? Really?

So go ahead and bring in AJ. I have no doubt he will make the Pistons play with passion and toughness and the D will improve. But as soon as the players figure out AJ cant coach, forget it. It will be like blood in the water for sharks.

These 2 posts remind me of the old George Carlin bit about license plates. "New Hampshire's license plate says 'Live Free Or Die', & Idaho's says 'Famous Potatoes'. The truth lies somewhere in between, & it's probably closer to 'Famous Potatoes.'"

I don't know that all these players we call "stars" are really pampered & run their teams, & we better get somebody in their to kick some ***. I also don't know if AJ is a good coach. I know Dallas improved under his leadership, and I believe he'd concentrate more on defense than his predecessors. I think it's far more important to hire a good leader than it is to hire the best X's & O's guy. Someone who understands when to push & when to pull, when to delegate & when to do it yourself.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

I dont agree with any of this. Players respect a coach who can coach, end of story. LB is one of the biggest pricks of all time, and players love him. He yells at you on the sideline, in the timeout huddle, and tells the media how bad you are during the post game presser.

The problem with AJ is, he cant coach. Up 2-0 in the NBA finals, Wade is absolutely shredding you...maybe a double team is in order? No! Lets keep doubling Shaq as Wade continues dropping 40 points on you every game. No need to double team someone like that. Late in game 6, Dallas is loaded with offensive stars, and who gets the key play run for them? Eric Dampier on the pick and roll baby! The same Dampier who makes Kwame Brown look like Jerry Rice when it comes to catching the ball. By the way, yes Dampier fumbled the pass out of bounds.

I can go on and on with crap like this during AJ's time as a coach. He learned from his first round mistake? Are you serious? Are you really going to tell me a NBA coach needs to learn that when you are 25 games better than the other team, you don't adjust your game to them? Really?

So go ahead and bring in AJ. I have no doubt he will make the Pistons play with passion and toughness and the D will improve. But as soon as the players figure out AJ cant coach, forget it. It will be like blood in the water for sharks.

I don't think Larry Brown is loved by players an opinion that was underlined and punctuated after the 2004 Olympics. As John Salley once concluded from talking to guys who played for him, "he takes the joy out of the game."

This doesn't mean I want Johnson though. I don't care what he did in the playoffs really, I just don't know what kind of coach he'd be for a team that is trying to forge a new foundation. What can he do with Ben Gordon's all around game? Can he increase Charlie Villanueva's intensity and toughness? Can he grow Stuckey's PG skills? These are the issues the Pistons need affirmatively addressed.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Truth

I don't think Larry Brown is loved by players an opinion that was underlined and punctuated after the 2004 Olympics. As John Salley once concluded from talking to guys who played for him, "he takes the joy out of the game."

This doesn't mean I want Johnson though. I don't care what he did in the playoffs really, I just don't know what kind of coach he'd be for a team that is trying to forge a new foundation. What can he do with Ben Gordon's all around game? Can he increase Charlie Villanueva's intensity and toughness? Can he grow Stuckey's PG skills? These are the issues the Pistons need affirmatively addressed.

Love is to strong of a word probably. But how many times have you heard half of his team demanding to be traded or he fired? Yeah you hear complaints about him, but guys play for him because he can coach. If AJ could, guys would play for him.

I think you are being pretty unfair to judge Brown based on 2 weeks of his 30+ years. Especially considering how many mistakes were made selecting that team by management. From picking the wrong players and style of coach, to scheduling practice time. There is a reason the system was completely overhauled afterwords.

Your last paragraph scares the hell out of me. Why are we tossing around so much money to guys with so many flaws?

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Your last paragraph scares the hell out of me. Why are we tossing around so much money to guys with so many flaws?

Because there are only a handful of guys without flaws and none of them are coming here. Now they need to build a team that can cover up some of those flaws while taking advantage of the things they do well.

It's either that or take your chances in the lottery.

[MACKSnare519]

Doesn't it seem like Joe D. is *trying* to build similar teams as he has before? Especially if he swings a defensive center...

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Because there are only a handful of guys without flaws and none of them are coming here. Now they need to build a team that can cover up some of those flaws while taking advantage of the things they do well.

It's either that or take your chances in the lottery.

I don't expect guys to have perfect games. But Gordon can only do one thing. Granted he is excellent at it, but he cant dribble, pass, rebound, or defend. Sometimes you have to do those things in a basketball game. CV doesn't hustle and is soft? Buck fans say he will show up big for a game, then take 2-3 off. Thats bad.

[Betrayer]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

but he cant dribble, pass, rebound, or defend. Sometimes you have to do those things in a basketball game.

This may be a little over the top.

He dribbles pretty well getting into the lane and averages only 2.4 turnovers per game. Not a tiny number, but not huge either. Rip averages 2 turnovers per game himself for a guy who doesn't create off the dribble at all and AI is at 3.61 for his career (I think he's a pretty good dribbler).

As for passing, he averages 3 assists per game. Rip averages 3.4...not much difference there. The guy's a shooting guard, not a PG, so 3 assists per game is pretty normal.

Rebounds? Gordon averages 3 per game. Rip, who is about 5" taller only averages 3.4 for his career.

I'm not going to try to say he's a great defender, but Scottwood posted earlier about how he falls about right in the middle of the pack for SGs based upon the stats at 82 games.

It seems to me that he's about average at most of those things and he's an exceptional scorer with the deep range that this team has none of since letting go of Billups (41% career 3pt is excellent...Reggie was 39% career).

So, as you said he certainly doesn't have a perfect game, but saying he can only do 1 thing is not accurate either.

[itsallgood8989]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

This may be a little over the top.

He dribbles pretty well getting into the lane and averages only 2.4 turnovers per game. Not a tiny number, but not huge either. Rip averages 2 turnovers per game himself for a guy who doesn't create off the dribble at all and AI is at 3.61 for his career (I think he's a pretty good dribbler).

As for passing, he averages 3 assists per game. Rip averages 3.4...not much difference there. The guy's a shooting guard, not a PG, so 3 assists per game is pretty normal.

Rebounds? Gordon averages 3 per game. Rip, who is about 5" taller only averages 3.4 for his career.

I'm not going to try to say he's a great defender, but Scottwood posted earlier about how he falls about right in the middle of the pack for SGs based upon the stats at 82 games.

It seems to me that he's about average at most of those things and he's an exceptional scorer with the deep range that this team has none of since letting go of Billups (41% career 3pt is excellent...Reggie was 39% career).

So, as you said he certainly doesn't have a perfect game, but saying he can only do 1 thing is not accurate either.

+1

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

This may be a little over the top.

He dribbles pretty well getting into the lane and averages only 2.4 turnovers per game. Not a tiny number, but not huge either. Rip averages 2 turnovers per game himself for a guy who doesn't create off the dribble at all and AI is at 3.61 for his career (I think he's a pretty good dribbler).

As for passing, he averages 3 assists per game. Rip averages 3.4...not much difference there. The guy's a shooting guard, not a PG, so 3 assists per game is pretty normal.

Rebounds? Gordon averages 3 per game. Rip, who is about 5" taller only averages 3.4 for his career.

I'm not going to try to say he's a great defender, but Scottwood posted earlier about how he falls about right in the middle of the pack for SGs based upon the stats at 82 games.

It seems to me that he's about average at most of those things and he's an exceptional scorer with the deep range that this team has none of since letting go of Billups (41% career 3pt is excellent...Reggie was 39% career).

So, as you said he certainly doesn't have a perfect game, but saying he can only do 1 thing is not accurate either.

Comparing him to Rip isn't going to help your cause much at all.

[Deleterious]

Avery Johnson could seek a say in personnel | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Avery Johnson could seek a say in personnel

Multiple media reports confirmed Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars will be in Houston today to talk to former Mavericks coach Avery Johnson about the vacant head coaching job.
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But NBA.com had an interesting take Saturday.

There has been much speculation about what Johnson would demand to return to the bench to replace Michael Curry, who was fired Tuesday. But citing an unnamed source, the reports said Johnson wants a say in personnel matters and "is looking for a true partnership with management/ownership."

The report went on to say Dumars would likely have to make a long commitment at about $5 million per season.

It appears that Johnson, 44, is definitely the top choice, but if the report is true, those terms could prove too steep for the Pistons.

NOTEBOOK: There are Internet reports that the Pistons have signed 2008 second-round pick Deron Washington to a two-year guaranteed deal. The reports are premature as contracts can't be signed until Wednesday, when the league's moratorium ends. Still, the organization is very interested in the 6-foot-6 wing player who had a solid season overseas. There are some within the organization who feel he should have been on the roster last season. He will be watched closely when summer league play begins Friday in Las Vegas.

Hopefully AJ makes to many demands and they pass. Unfortunately, I bet we see a deal signed today.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Avery Johnson could seek a say in personnel | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press



Hopefully AJ makes to many demands and they pass. Unfortunately, I bet we see a deal signed today.

If AJ makes those type demands he's a fool. Not only will he not get this job, the only job he will get will be from a horrible, berift forever cursed franchise like Minnesota or Memphis.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by sportz4life

If AJ makes those type demands he's a fool. Not only will he not get this job, the only job he will get will be from a horrible, berift forever cursed franchise like Minnesota or Memphis.

Well, he can make those types of demands for a few reasons. First is the fact Dallas owes him $8 million still, so he doesn't need a job. Second is the fact that Joe is so bad with coaches.

Joe wont give up on the personnel position. But I bet you he gives him the extra years and money. That is what happens when you become so awful at picking coaches and have to fire one every 2 years.

[sportz4life]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Well, he can make those types of demands for a few reasons. First is the fact Dallas owes him $8 million still, so he doesn't need a job. Second is the fact that Joe is so bad with coaches.

Joe wont give up on the personnel position. But I bet you he gives him the extra years and money. That is what happens when you become so awful at picking coaches and have to fire one every 2 years.

The money is easier to resolve, Cuban will be happy to settle for slightly less than the 8MM in a buyout..who wouldn't. Or they can structure a 3 year deal for small sums the first 2 years and a huge amount in year 3.

But if he oveplays his hand, you will see him breaking down NBA action for ESPN this season.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Well, he can make those types of demands for a few reasons. First is the fact Dallas owes him $8 million still, so he doesn't need a job. Second is the fact that Joe is so bad with coaches.

Joe wont give up on the personnel position. But I bet you he gives him the extra years and money. That is what happens when you become so awful at picking coaches and have to fire one every 2 years.

I'm not sure that Dumars has been awful at picking coaches (with the exception of Curry). However, his habit of firing them, regardless of success and his sitting on his hands when it came to improving or changing up his roster with Flip is an issue with guys like Collins and Johnson. Dumars probably deserves that but that doesn't mean I think he should let Johnson write his own ticket. I don't think he's earned that kind of influence. The Pistons would be better off going after one of the assistants that are supposedly on the radar.

[NotoriousCPC]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

This may be a little over the top.

He dribbles pretty well getting into the lane and averages only 2.4 turnovers per game. Not a tiny number, but not huge either. Rip averages 2 turnovers per game himself for a guy who doesn't create off the dribble at all and AI is at 3.61 for his career (I think he's a pretty good dribbler).

As for passing, he averages 3 assists per game. Rip averages 3.4...not much difference there. The guy's a shooting guard, not a PG, so 3 assists per game is pretty normal.

Rebounds? Gordon averages 3 per game. Rip, who is about 5" taller only averages 3.4 for his career.

I'm not going to try to say he's a great defender, but Scottwood posted earlier about how he falls about right in the middle of the pack for SGs based upon the stats at 82 games.

It seems to me that he's about average at most of those things and he's an exceptional scorer with the deep range that this team has none of since letting go of Billups (41% career 3pt is excellent...Reggie was 39% career).

So, as you said he certainly doesn't have a perfect game, but saying he can only do 1 thing is not accurate either.

Honestly, I think a lot of the grief that Ben Gordon gets stems from his early days in the league when the Bulls tried to shoehorn him into the PG position because of his size. But in the last two years in Chicago I think he found his place and played far more effectively within their system. He's still got flaws, but I think people are blowing them a little out of proportion.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Comparing him to Rip isn't going to help your cause much at all.

why wouldn't it? Rip has been a very good player for us, and an All Star for a couple years. He has his weaknesses, but we could have done a lot worse than having him at SG during our prime years.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

This may be a little over the top.

He dribbles pretty well getting into the lane and averages only 2.4 turnovers per game. Not a tiny number, but not huge either. Rip averages 2 turnovers per game himself for a guy who doesn't create off the dribble at all and AI is at 3.61 for his career (I think he's a pretty good dribbler).

As for passing, he averages 3 assists per game. Rip averages 3.4...not much difference there. The guy's a shooting guard, not a PG, so 3 assists per game is pretty normal.

Rebounds? Gordon averages 3 per game. Rip, who is about 5" taller only averages 3.4 for his career.

I'm not going to try to say he's a great defender, but Scottwood posted earlier about how he falls about right in the middle of the pack for SGs based upon the stats at 82 games.

It seems to me that he's about average at most of those things and he's an exceptional scorer with the deep range that this team has none of since letting go of Billups (41% career 3pt is excellent...Reggie was 39% career).

So, as you said he certainly doesn't have a perfect game, but saying he can only do 1 thing is not accurate either.

Good post. He is a great shooter and scorer and a lot of people just assume he is terrible at everything else. But, that is not the case. He is an average rebounder for his position. He is below average as a passer but pretty much average defensively. Everyone talks about how bad he is defensively, but how many SG are good defensively? Few and far between.

[NotoriousCPC]

For those in the anti-Avery camp, and with news of demanding say on personnel I am finding myself more in that group, I think no news is good news on Sunday. We know Dumars is meeting with him personally today and we know that Dumars is a guy that acts decisively and quickly once he has made up his mind. If he isn't hired today then I don't think he gets hired at all.

Wonder if he'll spin long-time assistants on winning programs as the kind of "experience" he meant all along if he goes the Keuster or Tom T. route.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Scottwood

why wouldn't it? Rip has been a very good player for us, and an All Star for a couple years. He has his weaknesses, but we could have done a lot worse than having him at SG during our prime years.

Because for 3 years Betrayer has been banging the trade Rip drum. Now he is using him as the standard other SG's are measured against? I don't think so.

[DaBishop]

i think he's been saying trad Rip because he's the most tradeable and replaceable commodity...not ecause he thinks he's a bad player. I don't think he's ever said he thought he was a bad player. /That said, Gordon's a better scorer and an equal rebounder/passer/defender(maybe)...or at least close. that means he's an upgrade if we find a way to move Rip. Rip is a great SG to measure other SG's against. He's better than the average but not quite a top 5 player. Should we be measuring all SG's against Kobe? If so i'd guess none are acceptable.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by DaBishop

i think he's been saying trad Rip because he's the most tradeable and replaceable commodity...not ecause he thinks he's a bad player. I don't think he's ever said he thought he was a bad player. /That said, Gordon's a better scorer and an equal rebounder/passer/defender(maybe)...or at least close. that means he's an upgrade if we find a way to move Rip. Rip is a great SG to measure other SG's against. He's better than the average but not quite a top 5 player. Should we be measuring all SG's against Kobe? If so i'd guess none are acceptable.

I don't know how you can compare Rip and Gordon. They have played in different systems, had different roles and with different supporting casts. Their career scoring numbers are pretty similar. I think he can score the ball in more ways than Rip but I'm not sure his game compliments Stuckey's or visa versa.

[Betrayer]

Originally Posted by DaBishop

i think he's been saying trad Rip because he's the most tradeable and replaceable commodity...not because he thinks he's a bad player. I don't think he's ever said he thought he was a bad player. /That said, Gordon's a better scorer and an equal rebounder/passer/defender(maybe)...or at least close. that means he's an upgrade if we find a way to move Rip.

Right, I don't think he's a bad player, just a one dimensional scorer. That's the reason I've wanted him traded, not because his other stats are right about average for a SG, like Gordon's. It's because when you need someone to get to the rim, he can't do it. He's a jumpshooter.

So, basically, Gordon is an upgrade at the SG position, which is exactly what I've been wanting for the past three years. He's on par with Rip on most stats, and he's a much better scorer (creating his own, hitting the 3, etc). Joe's problem now is trying to find a way to move Rip.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

Right, I don't think he's a bad player, just a one dimensional scorer. That's the reason I've wanted him traded, not because his other stats are right about average for a SG, like Gordon's. It's because when you need someone to get to the rim, he can't do it. He's a jumpshooter.

So, basically, Gordon is an upgrade at the SG position, which is exactly what I've been wanting for the past three years. He's on par with Rip on most stats, and he's a much better scorer (creating his own, hitting the 3, etc). Joe's problem now is trying to find a way to move Rip.

Gordon does not get to the rim! In fact, Rip shot 15% of his shots from inside last year and Gordon shot a whopping 20% of his shots from inside. Do you realize if you give each player an average of 15 shots per game (Pretty standard if your name isn't Bryant, Wade, or James), Gordon would take .75 more shots inside per game then Rip. So basically it would take your go 5 quarters of basketball to take more inside shots then Rip does. Hell, Vince Carter is dogged constantly for not getting inside more, and he at least shoots 25% of his shots from inside. Saying Gordon can get to the hoop just isn't factual. It's even more wrong when comparing him to Rip.

[4hzglory]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Gordon does not get to the rim! In fact, Rip shot 15% of his shots from inside last year and Gordon shot a whopping 20% of his shots from inside. Do you realize if you give each player an average of 15 shots per game (Pretty standard if your name isn't Bryant, Wade, or James), Gordon would take .75 more shots inside per game then Rip. So basically it would take your go 5 quarters of basketball to take more inside shots then Rip does. Hell, Vince Carter is dogged constantly for not getting inside more, and he at least shoots 25% of his shots from inside. Saying Gordon can get to the hoop just isn't factual. It's even more wrong when comparing him to Rip.

Whether he gets to the rim much more or not, there is no doubt Gordon is better at creating his own shot (that he can make) than Rip and that is a defintie upgrade. But we have to move Rip even if it is for Boozer.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Gordon does not get to the rim! In fact, Rip shot 15% of his shots from inside last year and Gordon shot a whopping 20% of his shots from inside. Do you realize if you give each player an average of 15 shots per game (Pretty standard if your name isn't Bryant, Wade, or James), Gordon would take .75 more shots inside per game then Rip. So basically it would take your go 5 quarters of basketball to take more inside shots then Rip does. Hell, Vince Carter is dogged constantly for not getting inside more, and he at least shoots 25% of his shots from inside. Saying Gordon can get to the hoop just isn't factual. It's even more wrong when comparing him to Rip.

this is correct. And, he draws fouls at about the same rate that Tayshaun does. Gordon is a jump shooter just like Rip. He can create his own shot better than Rip but he will not go to the hoop that much.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by 4hzglory

Whether he gets to the rim much more or not, there is no doubt Gordon is better at creating his own shot (that he can make) than Rip and that is a defintie upgrade. But we have to move Rip even if it is for Boozer.

How can you say that? Jump shooters generally don't create shots. They come off screens or depend on someone else being doubled so they are open, or someone driving and kicking, etc. None of those are creating shots.

[Deleterious]

Look, I'm not gonna keep dogging Gordon. I understand the signing. Guy can flat out stroke it from behind the 3 and we desperately need that on this team. I like him at $45 million, I can stomach $50, but $55 is a joke, and I am now hearing it might be $58 million. On top of that, Gordon himself said Dumars was the only one seriously bidding on him. So that really makes me question the price of the contract.

[Scottwood]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Look, I'm not gonna keep dogging Gordon. I understand the signing. Guy can flat out stroke it from behind the 3 and we desperately need that on this team. I like him at $45 million, I can stomach $50, but $55 is a joke, and I am now hearing it might be $58 million. On top of that, Gordon himself said Dumars was the only one seriously bidding on him. So that really makes me question the price of the contract.

I too thought he should have been a 5 year/ $45 million guy. His contract is similar to Ginobili's and Kevin Martin's and he is getting paid like a bottom tier top 10 SG. We overpaid him by about $2 million a year.

[Deleterious]

Getting back to the original topic...

If Dumars really wants AJ, he should meet with TT and Kuester. It could make AJ drop some of his demands if Dumars shows interest in those two.

[Betrayer]

Originally Posted by Deleterious

Gordon does not get to the rim! In fact, Rip shot 15% of his shots from inside last year and Gordon shot a whopping 20% of his shots from inside.

You can pick out the part of my statement where I said "get to the rim" and find the flaw in that (even though 20% is > than 15%). The point is that he's a better scorer than Rip. He may only be a little better at getting to the rim, but he is also a little better at getting to the line, creating his own shot, and especially hitting the three. Add it all up and you come to the point I was making: He does all of the other things besides scoring on par with Rip, but is a much more capable scorer.

While I would have loved to get him cheaper as well, I'm fine with the signing as long as we move Rip. If nothing else, Gordon is a younger player with a somewhat reasonable contract that could be traded later. So, as much as being a better scorer, he's also a valuable asset for the future.

[Deleterious]

Originally Posted by Betrayer

You can pick out the part of my statement where I said "get to the rim" and find the flaw in that (even though 20% is > than 15%). The point is that he's a better scorer than Rip. He may only be a little better at getting to the rim, but he is also a little better at getting to the line, creating his own shot, and especially hitting the three. Add it all up and you come to the point I was making: He does all of the other things besides scoring on par with Rip, but is a much more capable scorer.

While I would have loved to get him cheaper as well, I'm fine with the signing as long as we move Rip. If nothing else, Gordon is a younger player with a somewhat reasonable contract that could be traded later. So, as much as being a better scorer, he's also a valuable asset for the future.

Except he doesn't do things as well as Rip. You do realize those sites that post defensive stats, just take the time Gordon was in the game, and measure what the other teams SG did during that time. Here is the problem with that. Most of the time, Gordon doesn't guard the other teams SG...so his stats look better then they should.

Look at what Ray Allen did to Gordon in the playoffs this year. He has played 6 playoff series with the Celtics and the only one he performed above average was against Gordon and Chicago. Why is that? Because they couldn't move Gordon onto Rondo, so he had to play the SG and got lit up. 23.4 PPG against Chicago...13.3 against Orlando.

Also, Gordon is not better at getting to the line. Rip averages 4.4 FTA's per game while Gordon is at 4.1. He doesn't rebound as well either. 3.6 for Rip, 3 for Gordon. Even if you use TRB% Rip beats him out.