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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayer View Post
    Firing Frank without firing Joe is a joke. Frank was the lesser of the two to be blamed. Here we go again with Joe covering his mistakes by pinning it on the coach. He brought in the players, he brought in all the coaches, and yet somehow he continues to escape the blame. Just makes you shake your head in confusion.
    All reports suggest Dumars didn't bring in Frank. Gores did.

    Dumars deserves a lot of blame for this roster, but there are outside forces you have to consider. The owner, coach and bad luck play a big part on any team.

  2. #42
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  3. #43
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    https://twitter.com/deryNBA/status/325032236829274113

    Scratch Jeff Van Gundy off coaching wish list #Pistons fans. He said today that Det has very little talent and very little b ball character.
    Not someone I wanted. But still not good to hear people talk like that.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    https://twitter.com/deryNBA/status/325032236829274113



    Not someone I wanted. But still not good to hear people talk like that.
    Interesting. My initial instinct was that the Pistons job might be a desirable destination because this will be our fourth lottery pick in four years and we have a front court to build around. I guess it is relative to what other jobs are open. Would you rather go to the Cavs and Kyrie Irving/Tristan Thompson or the Pistons and Greg Mornoe/Andre Drummond. I guess the Cavs job is more desirable because Irving is already proven but Drummond's upside is not far off from Irving's at his own position. And give me the franchise center in a playoff series over the franchise point guard.

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    I'd rather have Ron Jeremy anyway
    Tigerbrand coffee is a real treat, even tigers prefer it to real meat.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBishop View Post
    I'd rather have Ron Jeremy anyway
    I would not mind this either. I don't know if the team could win the ship in 5 or so years from now with him if the talent is there, but I'd have faith in him making the team a top 4 eastern conference team.

  7. #47
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    I'd be ok with Sampson,Mcmillan,SVG or Budenholzer. I'm sure there are some other names out there as well.

    Something is weird about Budenholzer though. He always gets a ton of love on message boards and NBA websites, but never seems to get a ton of interest from actual teams. Maybe he doesn't want to leave his job in SA? Is there something wrong with this guy?

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    As for Frank, I had no problem with keeping or firing him. I don't see this firing as blaming him for the loss, but more so simply realizing that he was not the guy they desired at HC for the long term and realizing now was the time to sever ties.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'd be ok with Sampson,Mcmillan,SVG or Budenholzer. I'm sure there are some other names out there as well.

    Something is weird about Budenholzer though. He always gets a ton of love on message boards and NBA websites, but never seems to get a ton of interest from actual teams. Maybe he doesn't want to leave his job in SA? Is there something wrong with this guy?
    Maybe teams saw what a crappy coach Mike Brown became and don't want to hire any more Popovich assistants.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    https://twitter.com/deryNBA/status/325032236829274113



    Not someone I wanted. But still not good to hear people talk like that.
    Jeff Van Gundy is a nobody, so who cares what he thinks.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJBBREZ View Post
    Jeff Van Gundy is a nobody, so who cares what he thinks.
    I will take crazy statements for $200 Alex.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Maybe he doesn't want to leave his job in SA? Is there something wrong with this guy?
    Maybe he's cool with just being an assistant? Maybe he doesn't want to take on a losing situation as a head coach?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    Maybe teams saw what a crappy coach Mike Brown became and don't want to hire any more Popovich assistants.
    I heard Brown is going back to Cleveland.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJBBREZ View Post
    Jeff Van Gundy is a nobody, so who cares what he thinks.
    This is just nonsense. What is becoming clear from the way the media has talked about the Pistons is that no one outside of Detroit is excited about Greg Monroe. The only piece worth mentioning from the national media has been Drummond. Monroe does not get people excited about the Pistons front court.

  14. #54
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    I heard today that since 2000 in major sports only the Raiders have had more coaches than the Pistons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    https://twitter.com/deryNBA/status/325032236829274113



    Not someone I wanted. But still not good to hear people talk like that.
    This isn't the first time from JVG, he's been perpetually down on Detroit, I don't think he likes Dumars. I think SVG is probably out because of this too.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    This isn't the first time from JVG, he's been perpetually down on Detroit, I don't think he likes Dumars. I think SVG is probably out because of this too.
    It's not about liking Dumars. He just thinks Dumars does a crappy job, which is true. The Pistons job isn't an appealing one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    It's not about liking Dumars. He just thinks Dumars does a crappy job, which is true. The Pistons job isn't an appealing one.
    JVG rips every team that "fires coaches", he commented previously about Dumars something about when the going gets tough, Dumars fires the coach.

    He is very hard on all teams that fire coaches, being a formerly fired coach himself he has a soft spot.

    The Pistons job is very appealing, frontcourt foundation is built, upcoming lotto pick, and 25 million in cap room, a new owner vowing to spend what it takes, a historically good franchise. The Pistons are set to improve substantially in the next year, so the next coach really won't have a lot of pressure on it.

    Here is a blurb about Jerry Sloan from another Forum.

    Dave Checketts: Jerry Sloan thought about Pistons coaching job for “a couple of days” | Living and Dying by the Jazz

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    JVG rips every team that "fires coaches", he commented previously about Dumars something about when the going gets tough, Dumars fires the coach.

    He is very hard on all teams that fire coaches, being a formerly fired coach himself he has a soft spot.

    The Pistons job is very appealing, frontcourt foundation is built, upcoming lotto pick, and 25 million in cap room, a new owner vowing to spend what it takes, a historically good franchise. The Pistons are set to improve substantially in the next year, so the next coach really won't have a lot of pressure on it.

    Here is a blurb about Jerry Sloan from another Forum.

    Dave Checketts: Jerry Sloan thought about Pistons coaching job for “a couple of days” | Living and Dying by the Jazz
    It should be appealing, but it isn't. Because first sign of trouble and the coach is fired. There is no stability because of Joe Dumars. Dumars has a free pass to **** up as much as he wants. The coaches out there know it. The blame always is laid on the coach, which is unfathomable with how bad Dumars has been.

    The Sloan piece further backed my argument, he didn't want the Pistons job either. No one wants to take a job where they are the first one in line to be fired, regardless of the circumstances.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    It should be appealing, but it isn't. Because first sign of trouble and the coach is fired. There is no stability because of Joe Dumars. Dumars has a free pass to **** up as much as he wants. The coaches out there know it. The blame always is laid on the coach, which is unfathomable with how bad Dumars has been.

    The Sloan piece further backed my argument, he didn't want the Pistons job either. No one wants to take a job where they are the first one in line to be fired, regardless of the circumstances.
    Exactly this. Good luck attracting a coach when you treat them like garbage. The only ones you'll get are the ones nobody else wants.
    Matt Millen never left Detroit - he just started wearing a very convincing Joe Dumars costume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayer View Post
    Exactly this. Good luck attracting a coach when you treat them like garbage. The only ones you'll get are the ones nobody else wants.
    I almost think this is a bigger issue than the roster mistakes. I mean, at this point, who is going to be attracted to come here when the justifiable perception is that they will only have two seasons to work with?

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir View Post
    I almost think this is a bigger issue than the roster mistakes. I mean, at this point, who is going to be attracted to come here when the justifiable perception is that they will only have two seasons to work with?
    What coaches are available?

    I don't think the past history scares too many coaches really, the assistants looking to make the move will take most any job, and the retreads will also.

    I don't think this question will be answered until we see the new coach.

    What would people think of Nate McMillan for example? Where would he rate? What coaches would people expect to get for this team, if Dumars wasn't the GM? I don't think the coach firing history matters much, but I do think Dumars being a lame duck may make a difference.

    Really, other then Kuester which coach was a bad hire at the time, or a settled for hire? Which coach shouldn't have been fired?

    Obviously, I don't think Dumars wanted to fire Carlisle, and Larry Brown wanted to get fired.
    Last edited by DrWho17; 04-19-2013 at 02:06 PM.

  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    Really, other then Kuester which coach was a bad hire at the time, or a settled for hire? Which coach shouldn't have been fired?
    Flip Saunders and Curry were both poor hires. Flip wasn't egregious or anything, but he was the exact opposite coach the Pistons needed at the time. And Michael Curry, that might be worse than the Kuester hire.

  23. #63
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    An Easy Sell | THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE DETROIT PISTONS

    Coaches of winning teams who tack right or left when seas get choppy are hailed for their ability to adjust. Coaches of losing teams who do so are derided for their lack of conviction.

    No one thought Daly a genius when he fled the spectacular disaster that was the Ted Stepien Cleveland Cavaliers with a 9-32 record. If it hadn’t been for Jack McCloskey and their common ties to the University of Pennsylvania, it’s likely Daly – hardly a young man, 52, when the Cleveland experience was unplugged – would have never gotten another shot in the NBA, his genius undiscovered.

    If Phil Jackson hadn’t been in the right place when Jerry Krause ousted Doug Collins – the right place being assistant coach of Michael Jordan’s team – he probably would have been dismissed as a crackpot Zen hippie. Popovich might have coached his backside off had his first shot come with the expansion Vancouver Grizzlies instead of the Tim Duncan-David Robinson Spurs and no one ever would have guessed he was headed for enshrinement in Springfield.

    Dumars built an NBA title team from scraps, essentially, inheriting a roster with nothing approaching a star player once Grant Hill high-tailed it for Orlando a month after Bill Davidson turned the Pistons over to him. He did it within four years of assuming command, an astonishing achievement in a superstar-driven league.

    The rebuilding is well under way. Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond give the Pistons two rare building blocks – young, big and talented – that separate them from virtually everyone else dining at the lottery-team table.

    Their presence also will differentiate the Pistons from other teams casting lines in the pool of coaching candidates, but Monroe and Drummond aren’t the only things Joe Dumars will take to the marketplace as the search to replace Lawrence Frank unfolds.

    More at the link

  24. #64
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    Little early for fluff pieces.

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Little early for fluff pieces.
    It's the "other people do it so it's OK that we do it too" argument. It's an almost childish article in that regard.

  26. #66
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    Langlois is usually a hack, but that was actually a pretty good article.

    The Pistons offer a lot of attractive assets to a future coach. While somewhat flawed, their PF/C is set for 10+ years. They can hopefully plug another starting lineup hole via the draft. They probably have a veteran PG returning. Knight isn't the ideal starting SG but you could do a lot worse. Then you have upwards of $30M in cap space (If they want it all).

    Any coach worried about stability can just ask for a 4 year guaranteed deal.

  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    Langlois is usually a hack, but that was actually a pretty good article.

    The Pistons offer a lot of attractive assets to a future coach. While somewhat flawed, their PF/C is set for 10+ years. They can hopefully plug another starting lineup hole via the draft. They probably have a veteran PG returning. Knight isn't the ideal starting SG but you could do a lot worse. Then you have upwards of $30M in cap space (If they want it all).

    Any coach worried about stability can just ask for a 4 year guaranteed deal.
    I can see Dumars' pitch to a potential HC candidate now...."Join us....you could do a lot worse!"

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euphdude View Post
    I can see Dumars' pitch to a potential HC candidate now...."Join us....you could do a lot worse!"
    Thats how I won my gf over.

  29. #69
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    I think most would agree that the amount of coaching turnover has been a problem, but for all those who complain about it, does anyone think Joe fired anyone that shouldn't have been fired? From the sounds of things Joe didn't want to fire Carlisle, would have rather LB not be a dink and screw things up for basically no reason at all(seriously, he could still be coaching the Pistons right now if he didn't get some nonsensical wanderlust after 2 seasons), hate on Flip all you want...there's no guarantee that anyone else would have been able to do any better then 3 ECF's, he had his hands tied financially and chose the wrong up and coming assistant in Kuester, and didn't want to hire Frank. So there have certainly been some mistakes he's made in this department but I guess at the end of the day you can't blame it all on him.

    Hopefully he can bring a top candidate to the table who can demand a bit more say in the process, and get full support from upper management. Anyone who thinks this looks like a bad job is dreaming. Sure, JVG doesn't want it. With some of the things he's said about Detroit in the past, I'm pretty sure he wasn't a candidate anyway. I'd like to see McMillan or Sloan personally.
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  30. #70
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    Jeff Van Gundy blasts Joe Dumars for making Lawrence Frank Detroit Pistons' scapegoat | MLive.com

    "Detroit Pistons basketball slogan: When the going gets tough, we fire the coach," Van Gundy said. "It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. You know what surprises me, Chris? These new owners in Detroit have to be exceedingly bright to have made as much money as they have. And to be duped again that your G.M. tells you that the roster is good and the coach is bad ... what was the problem with Michael Curry? What was John Kuester? Now Lawrence. They run through coaches and they haven't even begun to address their problem. They have very little talent and very little basketball character. You combine that, you're going to be in a long rebuild.

    "I'm just surprised that when everybody acknowledges it's a player's league – everybody would agree with that – then the most important player or person in any organization is the person that picks the players. But we don't, as organizations, examine them. We just take the easy way out time and time again. You lose, the G.M. convinces the owner 'We got good players. It's the coach's fault.' We fire the coach; we bring a new coach in; we continue to lose. We fire that coach, saying that 'We have better players.' It just goes on and on. It's typical and I can't believe that the Detroit owners fell for it. I just can't believe it."

    More at the link
    This is the first time I'm seeing the JVG comments. He makes himself look really silly in my opinion.

    He has a legit complaint that Dumars is the one that keeps hiring the bad coaches and shouldn't get another shot at this. But he totally discredits anything he says when he asks what was wrong with Curry and Kuester.

    Curry was in so far over his head it wasn't even funny. His post game comments were so head scratching you often wondered if he was even talking about basketball. Kuester had a full blown player mutiny that no coach would have survived, he had to go. He probably should have been fired right then and was lucky to last until the end of the year.

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    I hate to be "that guy" but my interest in Piston basketball has never been lower. I used to watch/DVR every single game. Granted, we were pretty good so that helped. I have the NBA league pass to watch Detroit and I did not watch one full game this year. I just can't stomach seeing Dumars picking another head coach. If the ownership is okay with the apathy then so be it.

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    Jeff Van Gundy blasts Joe Dumars for making Lawrence Frank Detroit Pistons' scapegoat | MLive.com



    This is the first time I'm seeing the JVG comments. He makes himself look really silly in my opinion.

    He has a legit complaint that Dumars is the one that keeps hiring the bad coaches and shouldn't get another shot at this. But he totally discredits anything he says when he asks what was wrong with Curry and Kuester.

    .
    To me the more legitimate complaint is a GM blaming the poor play of an assembly of bad players on the coach. Whether it's a good or bad coach hardly matters.
    "Well that's it - you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear" - Rock Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    To me the more legitimate complaint is a GM blaming the poor play of an assembly of bad players on the coach. Whether it's a good or bad coach hardly matters.
    A lot of people around here were predicting the Pistons would be .500 this year. The roster didn't change that much during the season and when it did they certainly weren't on their way to .500.

    So did we all get it just as wrong as Dumars or is Frank maybe a bad coach?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    A lot of people around here were predicting the Pistons would be .500 this year. The roster didn't change that much during the season and when it did they certainly weren't on their way to .500.

    So did we all get it just as wrong as Dumars or is Frank maybe a bad coach?

    "A lot of people around here were predicting the Pistons would be .500"

    A team that didn't sustain a 400 percentage in a short season and had a losing record in April. I guess I not sure why.

    "The roster didn't change that much during the season"

    I thought our best player was the rookie.

    "So did we all get it just as wrong as Dumars or is Frank maybe a bad coach?"

    How about "Bad team, worse coach"
    "Well that's it - you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear" - Rock Man

  35. #75
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    Or this was an average team with a terrible coach that couldn't get the results.

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    Or this was an average team with a terrible coach that couldn't get the results.
    I don't think I'd give them average - at least until they picked up Calderon. I think you at least have to have one guy on a roster capable of playing point guard to begin approaching average.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleterious View Post
    A lot of people around here were predicting the Pistons would be .500 this year. The roster didn't change that much during the season and when it did they certainly weren't on their way to .500.

    So did we all get it just as wrong as Dumars or is Frank maybe a bad coach?
    -We traded away our starting SF and our enigmatic three-point specialist off the bench, who was suddenly making over 50% of his attempts, at the deadline when the team was actually playing like a fringe playoff team.

    -Frank's rotation the first few months wasn't what anyone expected. Singer at starting SG? Drummond getting 20 MIN off the bench in spite of being our most efficient player? JJ buried on the bench for months, Daye buried, Bynum buried for little reason. And then Drummond being out most of the time after the trade deadline due to injury. If someone had told me that the rotation would have been what it was this year, I would have said we were lottery-bound for sure. The rotation is on Frank, unless you think Dumars was the one pulling the strings from upstairs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    I don't think I'd give them average - at least until they picked up Calderon. I think you at least have to have one guy on a roster capable of playing point guard to begin approaching average.
    Acquiring Calderon, to me, was a move that was going to help Monroe and Drummond the most--especially Drummond. With Drummond and Calderon only playing in a few games together due to injury, this more than cancelled out Calderon's worth over having Prince/Daye on the team.
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    Anyone defending Frank is absolutely crazy. The roster this year was inarguable better then the roster last year and we won 4 more games in 16 more opportunities. The difference between last year and this was we played .500 ball after a .200 start. This year we finished practically as bad as we started. We saw regression in some players, a lack of any real team concept with a second team that played better then the first team for a good portion of the season, and didn't see any real improvement in the way the team looked until Dumars traded Prince and Daye away for Calderon.

    His handling of JJ, the failure to integrate Stuckey into the team this year (we can dislike him all we want, he is not as bad a player as he played for most of the year and the fact was he seemed lost which points to the coaching staff failing to some extent IMO), and his baffling manner of supposedly playing to build a team for the future but still giving big minutes to guys with no future on the team like CV, Maxiell and Bynum. Were we trying to make the playoffs or build for the future...it was certainly never clear from the way he coached. Even the seemingly classless way he handled Maggette (from all accounts he never really addressed Maggette's benching with the player which is sad particularly with the way he seemed to really take on a role of mentor to Drummond and the younger players). I think this past year was a real train wreck and I would place most of the blame at Frank's feet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitCity313 View Post
    All reports suggest Dumars didn't bring in Frank. Gores did.

    Dumars deserves a lot of blame for this roster, but there are outside forces you have to consider. The owner, coach and bad luck play a big part on any team.
    Does joe dumars do anything? Every mistake he makes is because the owner told him to do it.
    the above opinion is not respected by Deleterious

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